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moonmonkey · May 30, 2003, 03:04 AM

"Expect to see the use of impressive, high-resolution 3D interface elements in Panther, from what we've seen recently. It may not be extremely pervasive so that Panther will still run with acceptable performance on every officially supported G3 and G4 system even as it expands to the new PowerPC 970-driven Macs....but it will be a very clear look-and-feel advance from any previous operating system Apple has ever delivered.

Even now, any system that supports 10.2's basic implementation of Quartz Extreme can pull off Aqua's animations and transparency surprisingly well. Panther will flesh out Quartz Extreme significantly, and make much better use of it. Don't be surprised to see more and more of Mac OS X -- the Dock, Finder, System Preferences, Startup Display, et cetera -- employing icons and interface elements that rotate, ripple, expand, contract, and react to user activity or input in a number of ways."

from macosrumors.com

Does anyone belive this? what kind of record did these guy have with Jaguar rumors?

Pierre B. · May 30, 2003, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Does anyone belive this? what kind of record did these guy have with Jaguar rumors?

Macosrumors has a very bad reputation in predicting soft- and hard- ware changes, for at least 2-3 years. Very often, what they are saying are a recompile of available rumors or just wishes. Not sure about Panther, they are saying "our recent look at developmental builds of Panther only included a few examples of it". Looks like they have seen something or they want to let us believe that this is the case. I don't know, I read them since quite often they make me laugh, and this is a good way to start the day.

wulf · May 30, 2003, 04:49 AM

Do I believe that macosrumours.com is generally accurate?

Hell, no.

Is it a likely possibility that Aqua/Finder/Dock will include more eye-candy?

Probably, yes. If Apple are introducing 970 systems, and making increasing use of Quark Extreme (which may have further optimisations in Panther), it makes sense that they would try and leverage that with some "freshening up" of the user interface. As long as there aren't unacceptable performance lags from new GUI features, I'm all for a bit of eye-candy...

Gee4orce · May 30, 2003, 04:59 AM

Probably, yes. If Apple are introducing 970 systems, and making increasing use of Quark Extreme

That'll be Quartz extreme, I think. The only think that's extreme about Quark is how bad they to their customers

wulf · May 30, 2003, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
That'll be Quartz extreme, I think. The only think that's extreme about Quark is how bad they to their customers

oops. that's what I get for posting before coffee...

Toyin · May 30, 2003, 07:48 AM

MacOSRumors is always entertaining to read. I really liked the portion on the 980 G5 chip. How I wish. As far as rumors sites are concerned, the only one that is right most of the time is Think Secret.

dlefebvre · May 30, 2003, 08:21 AM

MacOSRumors is realy enternaining. To bad they upgrade their rumours only once every decades. How long does it take make stuff up?

sandsl · May 30, 2003, 08:51 AM

Apple recently release a source code example called BoingX which "shows off using Quartz Extreme to provide borderless
OpenGL content on the desktop" - could this be a hint of Apples 3D direction?

Download URL: ftp://ftp.apple.com/developer/Sample..._3D/BoingX.sit

You'll need to compile it in project builder if you want to try it.

Spheric Harlot · May 30, 2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by dlefebvre:
MacOSRumors is realy enternaining. To bad they upgrade their rumours only once every decades. How long does it take make stuff up?

Well, I'd think that journalistic integrity dictates you only publish stuff that *other people* make up and mail to you.

Though with MOSR, it's hard to tell the difference.

-s*

kupan787 · May 30, 2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Toyin:
MacOSRumors is always entertaining to read. I really liked the portion on the 980 G5 chip. How I wish.

Actually they aren't too far off. The Power5 is supposed to be 4 times better than the Power4 (at the same clock, I belive that is what I read). Now the 970 is based on the Power4 and the 980 will be based on the Power5. So they arn't totally pulling that out of their ass, that the 980 will blow the 970 away.

-Q- · May 30, 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Well, I'd think that journalistic integrity dictates you only publish stuff that *other people* make up and mail to you.

Though with MOSR, it's hard to tell the difference.

-s*

You're assuming the a site that deals in rumors and innuendo has journalistic integrity. My opinion is that the two are mutually exclusive.

That being said, I agree with Toyin that it can be fun to read. Speculating on what's going to come out of the Apple House of Ideas definitely kills time during a boring work week.

And I'm surprised that no one has started a web site that tracks the apple rumor sites accuracy.

Gandhi · May 30, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by dlefebvre:
MacOSRumors is realy enternaining. To bad they upgrade their rumours only once every decades. How long does it take make stuff up?

You've got to give Meader a break. It takes a long time to copy down what some prepubescent twit has posted to the Usenet and then use his Pentium 66 to update the HTML on his...umm... 1 page website. Plus, I think his mom makes him keep his room neat and clean, or no dial-up for him....

snerdini · 08:41 PM

Originally posted by sandsl:
Apple recently release a source code example called BoingX which "shows off using Quartz Extreme to provide borderless
OpenGL content on the desktop" - could this be a hint of Apples 3D direction?

Download URL: ftp://ftp.apple.com/developer/Sample..._3D/BoingX.sit

You'll need to compile it in project builder if you want to try it.

After seeing it run, I'd say it's a good possibility...

Toyin · May 30, 2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by kupan787:
Actually they aren't too far off. The Power5 is supposed to be 4 times better than the Power4 (at the same clock, I belive that is what I read). Now the 970 is based on the Power4 and the 980 will be based on the Power5. So they arn't totally pulling that out of their ass, that the 980 will blow the 970 away.

I know about the Power5 family and the 980. It's more the time schedule. 4-5ghz chips in a little over a year? Seems a bit optimistic to me. But hey I'd be psyched if we could increase the computing power of the Mac almost 10 fold from what it is now in a little over a year.

DeathMan · May 30, 2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by kupan787:
The Power5 is supposed to be 4 times better than the Power4

What is this supposed to mean? Better at what? Making noise? Heat? integer operations? I don't like blanket terms like 4 times better than before. There are too many trade-offs for any given trade-on.

I'mDaMac · May 30, 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by sandsl:
Apple recently release a source code example called BoingX which "shows off using Quartz Extreme to provide borderless
OpenGL content on the desktop" - could this be a hint of Apples 3D direction?

Download URL: ftp://ftp.apple.com/developer/Sample..._3D/BoingX.sit

You'll need to compile it in project builder if you want to try it.

Anyone mind compiling this and posting it? I don't have the developer tools installed and wouldn't know how to go about compiling it anyway. Thanks in advance if someone does this.

:XI: · May 30, 2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by I'mDaMac:
Anyone mind compiling this and posting it? I don't have the developer tools installed and wouldn't know how to go about compiling it anyway. Thanks in advance if someone does this.

Here you go.

Notice that it looks like the Amiga logo.

I'mDaMac · May 30, 2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by :XI::
Here you go.

Notice that it looks like the Amiga logo.

Thanks :XI: For its simplicity it's still a cool little demo. I especially like removing the border and allowing the ball to bounce on the desktop.

I for one hope Apple finds USEFUL ways to implement this technology. Perhaps redefine the desktop metaphor in 3D space in a natural evolution to the Mac GUI. Then they can patent and copyright the hell out of it to keep M$ from exploiting Apple as its own personal R&D division.

Can't wait to see what Apple has up its sleeve for Panther. Here's hoping it's something "insanely great."

moonmonkey · May 30, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by :XI::
Here you go.

Instructions................

When the app starts up the ball is just bouncing around inside the window. Hitting the 's' key resizes the window to 2X normal size. Hitting 'm' will enable multisampling if a multisample pixel format was available. Hitting 'l' enables lighting for that added "ooh aah" effect. The final magic demo key is to hit 't' which makes the background fade away and the ball then starts to bounce around on your desktop.

derekn · May 30, 2003, 11:23 PM

Okay putting aside MOSRs reputation, they may have a point.

I can't remember who it was or where I read it but when Jag was released, someone wrote into a Mac news site about Quartz Extremes potential. They claimed to have even gone so far as to write Apple about this. The subject was doing stuff as MOSR described, he didn't list as many options as MOSR, the only one I remember was an option to possibly have a window "shatter" when it was closed.

The potential for QE is amazing, I just hope Apple doesn't do so much that it bogs down the system too much. Make it cool Apple but don't get excessive please.

thePurpleGiant · May 30, 2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Instructions................

When the app starts up the ball is just bouncing around inside the window. Hitting the 's' key resizes the window to 2X normal size. Hitting 'm' will enable multisampling if a multisample pixel format was available. Hitting 'l' enables lighting for that added "ooh aah" effect. The final magic demo key is to hit 't' which makes the background fade away and the ball then starts to bounce around on your desktop.

Nice!! I was rather unimpressed before knowing this. I have seen 3D objects in a window before. I have seen a window without a border.

But now at least it shows more purpose.

Mike S. · May 31, 2003, 12:18 AM

Heh, I guess it really does need Quartz Extreme because it sure runs like crap on an 8600 - G3/400 with a PCI Radeon

It wasn't transparent (black box behind the ball) and the Window Manager and Boing combined consumed 90% CPU time and brought responsiveness to a crawl. 65% WM + 25% Boing

It quit when I told it too, however, and things returned to normal.

Think I'll try it on an eMac tomorrow.

Aside from the transparency, Object Desktop for Windows allows for multiple animated icons concurrently on an old PC notebook P2-300 or so with crap video, didn't use much CPU at all. I saw a demo on TechTV a while back.

Why does this need so much horse power?

snerdini · May 31, 2003, 12:26 AM

This has so much potential to be cool...but now we really need new processors! C'mon 970!!

Cipher13 · May 31, 2003, 03:50 AM

MOSR is a joke.

But as for adding a new dimension to interfaces... there's only so much fun you can have in two dimensions.

workerbee · May 31, 2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by snerdini:
This has so much potential to be cool...but now we really need new processors! C'mon 970!!

Yep... performance really suffers on a G4 when a window is on top of the OGL animation and being moved around. C'mon, low-end dual 970s and high-end quad 970s

spauldingg · May 31, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Instructions................

When the app starts up the ball is just bouncing around inside the window. Hitting the 's' key resizes the window to 2X normal size. Hitting 'm' will enable multisampling if a multisample pixel format was available. Hitting 'l' enables lighting for that added "ooh aah" effect. The final magic demo key is to hit 't' which makes the background fade away and the ball then starts to bounce around on your desktop.

right click sends it spinning in the opposite direction

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 31, 2003, 02:20 PM

3D interface on a 2D display is rather pointless.

Superchicken · May 31, 2003, 03:31 PM

Not neccicarly Apple could do a lot of cool interface elements with 3D stuff... however I don't know if the current CPUs they claim to support could handle it. If anything they could take the whole concept of RT Extream from Final Cut Pro 4, and cut out ultra processor intense opps on lower end CPUs, and for example drop the FPS of a certain animation on a G3 where as it'll be just as fast but look better on a G4 type thing.
Hopefully apple does something that will let the user coustomize how much eye candy verses proformance they want.

workerbee · May 31, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by derekn:
The potential for QE is amazing, I just hope Apple doesn't do so much that it bogs down the system too much. Make it cool Apple but don't get excessive please.

Right! No more 3D gadgetry... what we want from QE is speed. I'd really like to see this in QE: everything is openGL and can be scaled at will.

moonmonkey · May 31, 2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
Not neccicarly Apple could do a lot of cool interface elements with 3D stuff... however I don't know if the current CPUs they claim to support could handle it. If anything they could take the whole concept of RT Extream from Final Cut Pro 4, and cut out ultra processor intense opps on lower end CPUs, and for example drop the FPS of a certain animation on a G3 where as it'll be just as fast but look better on a G4 type thing.
Hopefully apple does something that will let the user coustomize how much eye candy verses proformance they want.

Thanks for that, it looks like the longest sentence ever created.

moonmonkey · May 31, 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
3D interface on a 2D display is rather pointless.

Depth perception should work fine on a 2D display, just like we get a lot of information from 1 screen in UT 2003, but I dont think Apple are doing this.

They are just adding special effects which may may not improve user feedback, but will look cool anyway.

RooneyX · May 31, 2003, 10:54 PM

I'd like a couple of animations. For example, I want app windows to smash like glass into a thousand pieces when the app crashes.

lokjah · May 31, 2003, 10:59 PM

just give us a working finder.

l�k

Superchicken · Jun 1, 2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Thanks for that, it looks like the longest sentence ever created.

Thanks for that, being critical of others for not having perfect gramer on a message board is alwasys welcome

eevyl · Jun 1, 2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by -Q-:
And I'm surprised that no one has started a web site that tracks the apple rumor sites accuracy.

MacRumors.com usually do that after keynotes or products announcements.

Cipher13 · Jun 1, 2003, 11:01 AM

After seeing this demo in action...

1. I see little use in it apart from a gimick for people with too much free runtime.

2. It practically killed my system, speedwise. I had flashbackts to 10.0.

3. Concentrate on the Finder first. Heh.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jun 1, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
Thanks for that, being critical of others for not having perfect gramer on a message board is alwasys welcome

The best part about that reply is the word "alwasys".

kmkkid · Jun 1, 2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Aside from the transparency, Object Desktop for Windows allows for multiple animated icons concurrently on an old PC notebook P2-300 or so with crap video, didn't use much CPU at all. I saw a demo on TechTV a while back.

yeah, Desktop X uses png frames to create animations, and it doesnt seem to take up any cpu when they are animating. But frames are pretty simple compared to a program having to calculate directions, angles, and boundaries...

Chris

lokjah · Jun 1, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:

3. Concentrate on the Finder first. Heh.

exactly.....

l�k

sandsl · Jun 1, 2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
After seeing this demo in action...

1. I see little use in it apart from a gimick for people with too much free runtime.

2. It practically killed my system, speedwise. I had flashbackts to 10.0.

3. Concentrate on the Finder first. Heh.

If your refering to 'Boing' then...
1) It isn't a 'demo' - its a coding example for developers to learn specific coding proceedures involving OpenGL. Therefore its obviously not useless although it maybe to you not being a developer.

2) If it killed your system you must have a G3 or slow G4 - Quartz Extreme is specified as a requirement for this example.

3) Maybe the 3D effect this example points to is part of the finder.

Cipher13 · Jun 1, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by sandsl:
If your refering to 'Boing' then...
1) It isn't a 'demo' - its a coding example for developers to learn specific coding proceedures involving OpenGL. Therefore its obviously not useless although it maybe to you not being a developer.

2) If it killed your system you must have a G3 or slow G4 - Quartz Extreme is specified as a requirement for this example.

3) Maybe the 3D effect this example points to is part of the finder.

1. It is indeed a "demo". The word, or abbreviation "demo" is short for "demonstration". This is a "demonstration"; a coding example. I never said it was useless at all. I said I see little use for a technology such as this in a file manager such as the Finder. Right?

2. Yeah, I have a G4/400 with a non-QE stock Rage. Lots of people still run non-QE and slow systems... so what's your point?

3. Possibly, something I never denied. How about speeding UP the Finder instead of adding new special effects that will slow it down even further? The Finder is the weakest link right now - it really, really blows. It has to be fixed. **** making it fancier - just make it work first.

moonmonkey · Jun 1, 2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The Finder is the weakest link right now - it really, really blows. It has to be fixed. **** making it fancier - just make it work first.

Hope it will do both, the article does mention that the features will not slow down older systems. Most rumors about Panther mention considerable speed ups on older G3 233 systems- Hope thats true.