[absmiths]

The preview doesn't appear to support Old World G3 machines, although the documentation mentions G3 mac's with built-in USB - whatever that means. Does anyone know if the Beige G3 towers will be supported in the final version of Panther? It seems odd that they support original iMacs but not the top of the line machines from the same time period and later.

FWIW, I have a Beige G3/300 MT, and the install disk says "No Driver Found For Apple PowerMac G3".

By the way, I am not asking for support, just information about the final version of Panther.

[mitchell_pgh]

I think my old beige 233 tower doesn't have any more life left in it. I'm sad to see that 10.3 won't be available.

I guess I can do most things in 10.2, but who knows...

[Art Vandelay]

Beige G3s didn't come with built-in USB. Only Macs with built-in USB are supported by Panther. Beige G3s (or any other Old World Mac) are a totally different architecture than non-beige Macs (New World). It really isn't surprising that Apple dropped support for them. They never had full support in OS X to begin with.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
It really isn't surprising that Apple dropped support for them. They never had full support in OS X to begin with.

I think it is surprising, since they have been supported for three iterations of the OS now--10.0, 10.1, and 10.2. I, for one, will be very disappointed if Apple stops supporting them with 10.3.

And I would call the level of support they have in OS X "full."

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally posted by absmiths:
the documentation mentions G3 mac's with built-in USB - whatever that means.

Take a WILD guess as to what that means.

[tooki]

Originally posted by absmiths:
By the way, I am not asking for support, just information about the final version of Panther.

You don't need to tell us what is and isn't a support request -- we will decide that on our own.

tooki

[-Q-]

Originally posted by wataru:
I think it is surprising, since they have been supported for three iterations of the OS now--10.0, 10.1, and 10.2. I, for one, will be very disappointed if Apple stops supporting them with 10.3.

I'm not surprised nor disappointed. The machine design will be six years old come November. The line was discontinued in 1999 with the introduction of the blue and whites. The line had to be drawn somewhere. And the new world mobo is as good a place as any. You've gotten good life out of your computer. It's time to move on.

And besides, if the machine is still working for you, great! Upgrading isn't required at all. And I don't doubt that Ryan Rempel will try and work beige support into his XPostFacto app.

And I would call the level of support they have in OS X "full."

I don't know if I'd go that far. The silly 8 GB limitation has been a bit of a pain for me. I'd like to have one giant drive instead of an 8 GB partition and another 40 GB one. Not a major problem, but still something that leads me to think it's not full support.

And you've been able to skip an entire generation of processors! Don't you think it's time to upgrade soon?

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by wataru:

And I would call the level of support they have in OS X "full."

Really? I've still got 9.2.2 on my parents machine (my old G3/266 desktop) so I can't check this myself, but does 10.2.7 support the serial printer ports? I know it's only a minor gripe, but that's the only thing stopping me from putting 10.2 on that machine.

[Edit: ...and the lack of internal floppy drive support. Has that been fixed yet? ]

[Xeo]

Well, it'd bother me if support is out for beige G3s, which it seems it is. I like to keep up to date w/ the latest OS on all my systems. I will probably spend the money to get a low end B&W just so I can install Panther on it. I'll wait until August before I do that, though.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
Really? I've still got 9.2.2 on my parents machine (my old G3/266 desktop) so I can't check this myself, but does 10.2.7 support the serial printer ports? I know it's only a minor gripe, but that's the only thing stopping me from putting 10.2 on that machine.

My hunch is 'no'. I don't think Apple ever supported printing to a serial printer. You're either stuck with 9.2.2 or if you want to be using OS X on that machine, you'll need to get a USB PCI card and a USB printer.

[Edit: ...and the lack of internal floppy drive support. Has that been fixed yet? ]

There's a beta patch out for it but I haven't used it so I don't know how well it works or what bugs may be present. It doesn't look like it's been updated in over a year tho'.

[rezzi]

Originally posted by tooki:
You don't need to tell us what is and isn't a support request -- we will decide that on our own.

tooki

"We will take what we want, then decide whether or not to blow your ship out of the water".

[Tsilou B.]

Calm down. :-)

XPostFacto is going to support Panther and with XPostFacto, even the old 7500-9600 run Mac OS X.
If you really want to keep your old beige G3 up to date, you will be able to install Panther on it, too.
Installing Mac OS X using XPostFacto is extremely easy. You just have to launch it, insert the Install CD and it will reboot and launch the installer.
You don't need a special CD or something.

Ryan (the creator of XPostFacto) is already working on the Panther version and by the time Panther is released, it will be out.

[eyadams]

Does 10.2.7 support the serial printer ports?

I can't let this one by. Every version of OS X has supported the serial hardware. Programs can access the serial ports = ZTerm can; they're available to the Unix layer (as /dev/tty.printer or something). However, Apple has never released drivers for printers that use serial ports. That said, CUPS does support several serial printers, and there have been reports of people successfully downloading the CUPS source, compiling it on their own, and getting it to work with serial printers. I never tried it myself, as I just went out and bought a USB card and a new printer (which I needed anyway). But I have read that it works.

[Edit: ...and the lack of internal floppy drive support. Has that been fixed yet? ]

Not from Apple. Someone did release a quick and dirty port of the drivers used by Linux, but they never worked particularly well. That said, the only time I missed having a floppy drive since upgrading to OS X was when a friend of mine needed something that was on a PC floppy. Then it was easy enough to reboot.

I would like to see support in Panther for Beige G3s. Though if it isn't there I'll live. I guess 5 years is long enough for a machine to be current.

[wataru]

Originally posted by -Q-:
The machine design will be six years old come November. The line was discontinued in 1999 with the introduction of the blue and whites. The line had to be drawn somewhere. And the new world mobo is as good a place as any.

And you've been able to skip an entire generation of processors! Don't you think it's time to upgrade soon?

For the record, I have an 800MHz iBook that I'm quite happy with. I don't even use my beige G3 anymore. I'm talking more from principle than personal necessity.

Yes, the machine is old and discontinued, but so is the B&W model. It seems very silly to me for them to go to the trouble of supporting the beige G3s at all only to drop them so soon. How much more work could it take to get 10.3 running if 10.2 works fine?

[-Q-]

Originally posted by wataru:
Yes, the machine is old and discontinued, but so is the B&W model. It seems very silly to me for them to go to the trouble of supporting the beige G3s at all only to drop them so soon. How much more work could it take to get 10.3 running if 10.2 works fine?

Excellent question. If the Beige and the B&W shared the same motherboard, it would make sense to support them both and probably take minimal effort. But there was a fundamental change to the foundation of the machine and how the OS interacts with it.

Should it be possible? Probably. But from the beginning, support for the beige has been kind of flaky (the 8 GB drive partition being the biggest indicator). It very well could be that there have been some re-writes of how OS X interacts with the hardware and Apple decided that it would cost too much to re-write for a 6-year old computer. Pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if they concluded that the beige specs just didn't have the muscle to run the technologies available in Panter.

But lack of Panther support doesn't make your beige stop working. It just removes it from the cutting edge of OS support. From a hardware perspective, it's been away from the cutting edge for half a decade.

Don't get me wrong; I love my beige. But like you, it's gotten to the point where I don't even use it any more b/c my iBook is so much faster. And I expected support to be cut off at some point. That's why I ordered a G5.

[grumpy]

Does anyone remember the lawsuit about lack of full support for Beige G3s in OSX?

My G3/300 works well enough for me under 10.2 except: the floppy drive, the stock AV connections, the stock DVD drive/decoding hardware and the 8GB partition limitation.

Its time for a G5.

[Eriamjh]

Each time Apple releases a new OS (every year now for three/four years?). Each time, they drop the lowest supported hadrware off their list.

Five years is long enough to support hardware.

Besides, no one says you have to upgrade the OS and no one says an older OS becomes unusable or obsolete when a newer one comes out.

I mean, some people are still using OS9!

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by -Q-:
I don't know if I'd go that far. The silly 8 GB limitation has been a bit of a pain for me. I'd like to have one giant drive instead of an 8 GB partition and another 40 GB one. Not a major problem, but still something that leads me to think it's not full support.

Limitation built into Open Firmware on these machines. Yes, it sucks, but it's not OS X's fault per se. You'd have the same problem if you tried to run, say, Linux.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
Each time Apple releases a new OS (every year now for three/four years?). Each time, they drop the lowest supported hadrware off their list.

Actually, OS X has had the same bottom configuration since 10.0, hasn't it?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Actually, OS X has had the same bottom configuration since 10.0, hasn't it?

You're correct. This is the first OS X update to change the supported configurations.

[Keda]

I have a Beige G3 (now G4) which I use constantly. It is upgraded w/a G4/500, Radeon, FW&USB, and plenty of RAM. This Mac is better than the G4/500 I use at work.

Now, I've been planning on getting a new machine in the fall/winter, so this news won't really affect me. But, I am disappointed that Apple would drop support for these computers entirely in Panther. My beige is still very capable.

I wonder what the after market will come out with. Afterall, we are running several upgraded 8600s (G3&G4) at work. They fill in as scanner an intern machines. They perform well. My fingers will remain crossed in the hopes that a 3rd party will find a way to install 10.3 on the beige Macs.

[macmike42]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
You'd have the same problem if you tried to run, say, Linux.

Not true. I have a Beige G3 (err G4) that runs Debian great from a single 60 GB drive. The only two partitions are "swap" (512 MB) and "linux" (the rest).

Also, props to the person that pointed out that OS X has always supported serial ports. Developing a *NIX without serial port support would be suicide! How else are supposed to telnet into your headless server when it crashes before the network interfaces come up?

I fully plan on installing Panther on my other (soon to be) 1 GHz Beige G4!

[funkboy]

Originally posted by grumpy:
Does anyone remember the lawsuit about lack of full support for Beige G3s in OSX?

My G3/300 works well enough for me under 10.2 except: the floppy drive, the stock AV connections, the stock DVD drive/decoding hardware and the 8GB partition limitation.

Its time for a G5.

Time for a G5? Well, that's nice, but some of us can't afford (or don't really feel the need!) to upgrade.

Look at all those things that don't work on your G3... they're quite important parts of a Digital Lifestyle Apple so instinctly wants us to embrace. My beige has the AV connections which would be awesome for using with iMovie or other software (iChat AV!) but they don't want to take the time to support it.

And to not have floppy support... that's just sloppy on Apple's part. Why not write a simple driver for floppy support for us beige owners left? I horribly need to find something that works... I think that patch someone posted will do it... at least I'm hoping so!

[olePigeon]

I wouldn't say they've supported beige G3s. I NEVER got it to install correctly and have completely given up on it. I talked to an Apple genius and he said it's just hit-or-miss when it comes to the beige G3s.

This really bumbs me out cuz I can't afford a new computer for another 3 years... or if I win the lottery.

Originally posted by wataru:
I think it is surprising, since they have been supported for three iterations of the OS now--10.0, 10.1, and 10.2. I, for one, will be very disappointed if Apple stops supporting them with 10.3.

And I would call the level of support they have in OS X "full."

[Xeo]

For those complaining about "upgrade prices" and whatever else, no one is forcing you to buy a brand new computer. I bought a B&W G3 350 for $200 to replace my Beige. I am selling the Beige for $100. Along with a few other sales, I'm basically getting it for free. $100 isn't that much of an upgrade price by itself.

Don't think of it as "I MUST go from the lowest to the highest!" You can get what you need for a lot less. Even G4s can be found for under $500.

[bojangles]

Everything I’ve heard about Panther indicates that the biggest speed boost from Jaguar will be seen on G3-based machines. Like many others on here, my beige G3 is purring along just fine with Jag 10.2.6, and when Panther comes out, I fully plan to upgrade. (I can’t even tell you how much software my G3 runs that supposedly “Requires built-in USB ports.” )

Once the G4/1GHz upgrade for beige G3s drops a little more ($480 is still a bit rich for my blood; I’d consider $399), Mr. BoJangles (my beige G3) will be getting a significant upgrade—one that will, most likely, more than take care of any possible performance issues with Panther.

Whether Apple supports it or not, Panther will be installed on my beige G3—and I’m guessing a few more jungle cats will eventually find their way on there, too.

[grumpy]

Answering my own question, the lawsuit over poor beige G3 support in OSX appears to be reaching a settlement:

$129 for beige G3 owners who bought OSX and will not use it.
$25 for beige G3 owners who bought OSX and are not satisfied.

$350000 for the attorney who brought the case.

http://news.com.com/2100-1045-5063290.html

[Moonray]

Originally posted by Xeo:
I bought a B&W G3 350 for $200 to replace my Beige. I am selling the Beige for $100. Along with a few other sales, I'm basically getting it for free.

Your logic is a bit too strange for me there. So for you it might have been a better deal if you had sold your car at the same time you got your B&W G3, then you would not only had it for free but a few 100 bucks extra. Basically.

-

[mamamia]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
I wouldn't say they've supported beige G3s. I NEVER got it to install correctly and have completely given up on it. I talked to an Apple genius and he said it's just hit-or-miss when it comes to the beige G3s.

did you make attempt to install it on the first 8 gb of the hard drive? i believe os X is especially tempermental about that with beige g3's. better yet, wipe the harddrive? it should work.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
Really? I've still got 9.2.2 on my parents machine (my old G3/266 desktop) so I can't check this myself, but does 10.2.7 support the serial printer ports? I know it's only a minor gripe, but that's the only thing stopping me from putting 10.2 on that machine.

[Edit: ...and the lack of internal floppy drive support. Has that been fixed yet? ]

I was able to get an old Serial printer working w. Gimp Print (which will be built into 10.3) and a serial->USB adapter. If you go this route, be careful about which adapter you get, because some don't work at all.

I've had no problems using my Stylus Color 600.

There is also a floppy driver you can download and install that will work in the Beige G3, and even the 8500.

[BurpetheadX]

We got donated a Beige Desktop 266 at work and we needed a server for around 40-50 clients for filesharing purposes. I overclocked it to 315 mhz/ 70 mhz bus, added a 60 gig drive, 512 RAM, and 10.2 Server. Getting 10.2 installed was the hardest task id ever done on a mac, but once I got it installed it works and runs great. Added a Asante 10/100 card and it's real fast for our users. I hope Panther server will be able to run on it!

[bojangles]

I overclocked it to 315 mhz/ 70 mhz bus, added a 60 gig drive, 512 RAM, and 10.2 Server.

I would love to do something like that with my beige, but there’s just one problem� where the heck did you get the 2.0mm jumpers? The smallest I’ve been able to find was 2.54mm, and those were only at Radio Shack!

Please do tell!

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by bojangles:
I would love to do something like that with my beige, but there’s just one problem� where the heck did you get the 2.0mm jumpers? The smallest I’ve been able to find was 2.54mm, and those were only at Radio Shack!

Please do tell!

You get the jumper-bloc out of the machine and move the metal pins in it

[BurpetheadX]

It's actually extremely simple. All you need is gentle hands, and a thumbtack.

http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~t-imai/g3ae1.html

[Pervas]

Originally posted by -Q-:
[...]I don't know if I'd go that far. The silly 8 GB limitation has been a bit of a pain for me. I'd like to have one giant drive instead of an 8 GB partition and another 40 GB one. Not a major problem, but still something that leads me to think it's not full support.

And you've been able to skip an entire generation of processors! Don't you think it's time to upgrade soon?

I don't know if this is real, but I've heard of someone that grabbed a HD bigger than 8GB that had 10.2 installed on usig a G4 and putting it in a Beige G3. It booted fine, even with a bigger than 8GB first partition. I don't have a way to test that, though!

Anyone?

[bojangles]

I don't know if this is real, but I've heard of someone that grabbed a HD bigger than 8GB that had 10.2 installed on usig a G4 and putting it in a Beige G3. It booted fine, even with a bigger than 8GB first partition. I don't have a way to test that, though!

The first time I installed Jag, I put my 80GB HD in my friend’s G4 for the install. My first partition was 8.0GB, and when I returned the drive to my beige G3, it worked just fine. So why is this relevant? Well, the reason I went through all that crap in the first place is because my beige wouldn’t let me install Jag on that first 8.0GB partition. I later discovered (after repartitioning the drive for unrelated reasons) that if I dropped the first partition to 7.99GB, my beige had no trouble at all.

To sum up: my beige’s limitation is actually 7.99GB, but I was able to overcome this limitation (albeit slightly) by putting the HD in a G4 and installing Jag from there.

[Moonray]

I don't think this limitation would be there without reason. For example there could be a 32 bit pointer in the open firmware pointing to some routine on the hd for some boot stuff, and it would not reach there if the location of where it points was beyond the first 8 GB.

However it's easily possible to put folders to any other partition using (Unix-) links.

-