[jayshao]

Piles sound interesting as a concept, and two different possible metaphors come to my mind.

1) When I think of piles, I think of an entity where order is important. I think that piles could be a modified package that maintained the order of the documents. Something similar to what Microsoft tried to do with Binder, but a the system level. Perhaps as a generic filetype, which would allow you to mix and match your Word, HTML, JPEG, OmniGraffle, Keynote and other documents into one coherent, ordered package (like a report). With OS support, and a standard API, we could even have neat things like headers and footers that worked across documents, and the ability to print the entire pile at once. You could even drag files around after you "spread" the pile to reorder them (e.g. move chapters around) and possibly have some smart files like tables of context, and indexing based on the OSX search/indexing service. Piles could contain sub-piles, and even folders.

2) As an interface for live queries. A kind of views interface, that was readily distinguished from folders to eliminate confusion from people who don't understand how the same file can be in 4 different places.

What do you think?

[oVeRmInD911]

I'm gonna go with #1.

Do I get a prize if I win?

[Sven G]

Interesting concepts: but it seems that Piles (in some form) won't make it into Panther (together with other important things, such as an enhanced Dock).

The main question is if Apple still is a "revolutionary" company on the OS front: the latest changes (in the GUI) are coming very slowly - so it will probably be at least another year before there'll be something really new (Exposé, probably, being just the beginning).

Personally, I would quite like some new form of OpenDoc, based on the new OS X technologies: it's really time to get rid of some of the more obsolete paradigms that have been more a compromise than a real advancement (see redundant and/or too limiting concepts like "applications", excessive use of - sometimes inefficient - "real world" metaphors like files, etc. etc.). Some new form of system-wide OpenDoc (loosely speaking, and without the negative things of the previous, "classic" version) would enhance the user experience quite a lot, together with new, more task-based GUI paradigms, IMHO...

P.S.: An interesting, rather new GUI ("desktop integration", in this case) thing I just saw on the 'Net is the GNOME Dashboard: see also this screenshot, BTW. Oh... if only the folks at Apple were more "open" about their projects!...

[clarkgoble]

Gnome dashboard really seems like a solution in search of a problem. As well as a screen estate hog.

I think there is a lot Apple could (and should) do with the dock. However overall I find the OSX dock the best solution to the problem. I didn't like it when I first used it. But now I find it superior to similar tools in NeXTStep, WindowsXP, Gnome, or KDE. (Although I do like the virtual desktops in KDE)

The big problem with the dock, as I mentioned in an other thread, is that it is application centric rather than document or project centric. On the other hand I can't think of a good way to make it document or project centric and retain its utility and simplicity. So I'm not about to criticize Apple too much here.

The one big problem that is a solvable problem is the minimized windows aspect of the dock. Beyond that in Jaguar (but not Panther?) you can't right click to close a minimized window there is the problem that most minimized windows look the same. Expose is really a far superior solution to the problem minimize in dock was attempting to solve.

The other problem is the proliferiation of those icons in the upper right of the menubar. I think many could perhaps end up in the dock a little better.

[lngtones]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
The other problem is the proliferiation of those icons in the upper right of the menubar. I think many could perhaps end up in the dock a little better.

Well the menubar icons take up a lot less space then a dock item would. I have 7 utilities in my menubar and that would mean 7 more large dock icons. Also, I can't see the extra space for the dock version being able to show any more information. The menubar utilites I have running show me just the right amount.

[Michel Fortin]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
The big problem with the dock, as I mentioned in an other thread, is that it is application centric rather than document or project centric. On the other hand I can't think of a good way to make it document or project centric and retain its utility and simplicity. So I'm not about to criticize Apple too much here.

What about poping opened documents in the dock and put a triangle under them? (just like applications)

[m@]

Patent link:
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=...amp;idkey=NONE

read this and see if it makes it any clearer, it just really confused me!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Sven G:
The main question is if Apple still is a "revolutionary" company on the OS front: the latest changes (in the GUI) are coming very slowly - so it will probably be at least another year before there'll be something really new (Exposé, probably, being just the beginning).

The problem is, change for change's sake is seldom a Good Thing. It needs to come after careful consideration.

This is the major problem with Piles. I would call it a solution in search of a problem, except that it's not a solution either, because no one has ever come up with a good, workable, usable way to implement it in a GUI. It's just a concept that exists for its own sake.

Personally, I would quite like some new form of OpenDoc, based on the new OS X technologies...

It exists. NeXTStep has had the foundations of such a technology for a long time, and this has carried over to OSX. However, it suffers from the same fundamental weakness as OpenDoc: Apple has dragged its feet in terms of documentation.

Then there's the concept of Gnome's dashboard. It's interesting, even intriguing, and I've seen some very interesting concepts put forth. But thus far, I don't see too much of a point in it. I don't doubt that Apple has its eye on this, but until Dashboard has a killer app, I don't think we're going to see it used very much.

[beb]

I just want list-shaded windows dammt!

[sadie]

Originally posted by Sven G:
P.S.: An interesting, rather new GUI ("desktop integration", in this case) thing I just saw on the 'Net is the GNOME Dashboard: see also this screenshot, BTW.

Isn't that what Microsoft is planning for <insert future Windows codename of the week>?

[mdc]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
...
The big problem with the dock, as I mentioned in an other thread, is that it is application centric rather than document or project centric. On the other hand I can't think of a good way to make it document or project centric and retain its utility and simplicity. So I'm not about to criticize Apple too much here.
...

i think apple realized this and in my opinion expose takes care of the dock's lack of document centric-ness. project centric is also taken care of when you make expose show only the windows that belong to the active window.

[Mskr]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
I think there is a lot Apple could (and should) do with the dock. However overall I find the OSX dock the best solution to the problem. I didn't like it when I first used it. But now I find it superior to similar tools in NeXTStep, WindowsXP, Gnome, or KDE. (Although I do like the virtual desktops in KDE)

*cough*CodeTek VirtualDesktop*cough*

[Sven G]

Originally posted by sadie:
Isn't that what Microsoft is planning for <insert future Windows codename of the week>?

Yeah, of course it's rather similar for the sidebar thing.

At least we know in part what MS and the GNU/Linux-oriented people are planning: about Apple's plans for the future, OTOH, we know almost nothing...