[curmi]

First time I've tried to post a poll, so hopefully I won't bugger this up.

We've all seen the screen shots of the new finder. This poll is not about whether the new finder has great functionality, it is whether it should be Metal.

Personally I think the metal finder looks too much like an iApp (iTunes for example). It is too heavy, too much wasted space with all that metal outer edges. If it was Aqua I think it would look so much better, and less confusing on a screen with iApps and finder windows open.

But I may be in the minority. Hence the question.

Should the new finder be Metal?

Oh - and I don't count the "simple finder" as being a solution, since you lose all the new functionality in order to get Aqua with the latest builds.

[arekkusu]

NO, NO, NO, NO.

Metal is a terrible idea, and it is made glaringly obviously so when you can switch between Metal and Aqua at will with the "simple finder". You immediately notice how much slower Metal is.

Metal is appropriate (and traditional) for Calculator, and NOTHING ELSE.

[Stratus Fear]

What do you mean slower? There's no possible way the metal could be slower -- the way the GUI is skinned is all bitmaps, TGAs, and PDFs. The metal doesn't automatically make it slower.

[iPond317]

Originally posted by arekkusu:
NO, NO, NO, NO.

Metal is a terrible idea, and it is made glaringly obviously so when you can switch between Metal and Aqua at will with the "simple finder". You immediately notice how much slower Metal is.

Metal is appropriate (and traditional) for Calculator, and NOTHING ELSE.

And what about iTunes? iTunes came was the first metal iApp back in the days of OS 9 and pre-OS X.

[BGK]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I think the metal Finder looks great! But how nice it would be if Apple gave us the ability to choose between metal and aqua, since everyone seems so upset about it. So far they're doing a pretty good job listening and implementing ...

[Developer]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
What do you mean slower? There's no possible way the metal could be slower -- the way the GUI is skinned is all bitmaps, TGAs, and PDFs. The metal doesn't automatically make it slower.

You !

Metal appearance has a gradient, that has to be drawn on top of the pattern additionally. Also because of the gradient if a window is resized the whole window needs to be redrawn completely. In pinstripe appearance only the newly exposed area needs to redrawn.

[BGK]

Originally posted by Developer:
You !

Metal appearance has a gradient, that has to be drawn on top of the pattern additionally. Also because of the gradient if a window is resized the whole window needs to be redrawn completely. In pinstripe appearance only the newly exposed area needs to redrawn.

You're talking about FUNCTIONALITY. Forget that! Let the metal slow down my computer! I just use it for email and the internet anyway.

[MacGorilla]

I am not a big fan of metal. I guess if I have to have metal finder, I'll live,

[zachs]

I think the metal Finder looks fine. In the latest Panther build (7B28) its not slow at all, and it's been getting faster. I'm sure by the time it hits GM it'll be perfectly usable for everyone (it already is for me).

[ZackS]

Standard window.



Then you click the oval widget in the upper right...



And you get a simplified aqua view. This looks like the best option at this point. Too bad the new Finer uses a custom window type and Carbon resource files, so aquafying the extended view would be a non-trivial task.

[Developer]

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/f/find....html#mock-ups

Metal Finder was first proposed by arstechnica. They usually have some knowledgeable reviews, but screwed up this time.

[ApeInTheShell]

I think it matches the Panther aqua quite well.

If Safari wasn't brushed metal then it would look like all the other browsers.

The finder is no different. Although it is for file navigation, it is the window users will be looking at frequently.

Users want the finder to be easily identifiable from other windows. Why not make it in brushed metal?

[lookmark]

Personally, I'm much more interested in the live searching in the Finder than whether it has a brushed metal texture or light pinstripes.

The metal kinda makes sense for the Panther Finder, as it seems much more of a full-featured file browser (with that integrated, wonderful live search) than the Jaguar Finder... Just like iTunes, iPhoto, etc.

Well, it makes sense as much as metal makes sense anywhere in the OS...

When I see a metal window with a search field and a left-hand "playlist" pane, BTW, I don't necessarily think "iApp", I think "well-designed app with live searching that allows me to manage my stuff". With the meaning of "stuff" depending on the app. I think Apple is trying to apply some of theiApp philosophy to the Finder, not make the Finder a simplified consumer application.

Thus the metal. <shrug>

[SomeToast]

Originally posted by iPond317:
And what about iTunes? iTunes came was the first metal iApp back in the days of OS 9 and pre-OS X.

And also QuickTime Player before that.

[lookmark]

Originally posted by ZackS:
And you get a simplified aqua view. This looks like the best option at this point. Too bad the new Finer uses a custom window type and Carbon resource files, so aquafying the extended view would be a non-trivial task.

Betcha someone does that in a matter of days following Panther's release.

Thanks for the all great screenshots, by the way. If people don't know this already: the sidebar "snaps" to the drives' icons or names when you move the divider, and the icon size in the sidebar resizes w/ window size.

[Axo1ot1]

I think Apple is making a mistake making the Finder metal. I am actually a fan of the metal look. I think it is very nice. I think the latest round of iApps are some of the prettiest apps ever made. The issue is that, in making th e finder metal, Apple is breaking it's own GUI guidelines. Basically metal is supposed to be reserved for apps that represent real life devices. This works for iTunes (stereo), iMovie (standalone NLE), iDVD, DVD player, and Calculator. iPhoto is a stretch, but I'm willing to make an exception. iCal and address book and iSync don't really work with this guideline unless you include them under the PDA umbrella or something. Whatever. The Finder really shouldn't be metal. It ignores the guidelines. I think Apple is just trying to be nifty, without actually considering weather it will actually be better.

Another major gripe I have with brushed metal is that it makes horrible use of space. The current finder lets you look at more stuff in a window the same size.

The last thing is that it will slow responsiveness down. The texture on the brushed metal and the way the windows have their own lighting (or whatever you want to call it) will make it really suck to run Panther on the older systems. Unless they do something amazing with the speed.

[lookmark]

Actually Apple has made the guidelines for textured apps pretty vague. Here they are:

Mac OS X version 10.2 provides developers with a new “textured” window appearance (see Figure 5-4). This window style has been designed specifically for use by—and is therefore best suited to—applications that provide an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals, such as the Address Book application.

This appearance may also be appropriate for applications that strive to re-create a familiar physical device—the Calculator application, for example. Avoid using the textured window appearance in applications or utilities that are unrelated to digital peripherals or to the data associated with these devices.

Managing data with a digital peripheral? The data associated with these devices? You can make a case for practically half of all applications.

Of course, Safari doesn't fit the current textured guidelines at all, and we can expect the AHIG to be updated to Panther soon, with some significant alterations. In regards to textured windows, it'll probably be a bit clearer in some areas, and (I fear) a bit even vaguer in others.

[clarkgoble]

I hate the metal Safari (and turned it to Aqua with Safaricon). I am mixed about the metal Address Book. I like the metal iTunes, iMovie and am so-so about iPhoto.

However I really like the metal Finder. It looks bad in screen shots but when you use it, it just makes sense. It's hard to explain. But it does.

It also provides a clear UI distinction between a Finder *object* and a Finder *browser*. That makes the Finder much more object oriented. While I'm no fan of the Sys9 Finder, I think this really does take the best elements of the Sys9 Finder.

One should also realize that the Finder is becoming more like iTunes. One could see with 10.3 having a filter feature and more of a mix between the browser and the *finding* aspects of the Finder.

(Let's be honest, the Finder rarely has been a finder)

[euphras]

I´m also not a big fan of the systemwide "brushed metal appearence". I hope, Apple will give us the oportunity to change skins in the system preferences.

But i admit: This grey metal look is much easier on the eyes compared to the dazzling white of the pinstripe skin.

[sahara]

Originally posted by euphras:
But i admit: This grey metal look is much easier on the eyes compared to the dazzling white of the pinstripe skin.

This obviously varies heavily from person to person. Maybe I just have sensitive blue eyes, but the contrast of dark brushed metal with a bright white content region is extremely jarring. With the Aqua appearance, the overall luminosity is even and thus easier to remain adjusted to.

[pendragon]

The Metal "feature" that I like (and use) is that it allows window dragging by clicking on any section/piece of the metal.

In Classic, there is a small window frame/border which one click on and then drag the window. But in OS X, the only grab place is the title bar.

So for those with large displays, the "metal" dragging can be quite convenient.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by ZackS:
Standard window.



Then you click the oval widget in the upper right...



And you get a simplified aqua view. This looks like the best option at this point. Too bad the new Finer uses a custom window type and Carbon resource files, so aquafying the extended view would be a non-trivial task.

That's silly, though... It shouldn't force you into using a simple Finder if you want to use Aqua.

[Jim Paradise]

This thread reminds me that I should send Apple some more feedback urging that they continue with the development of an aqua Finder.

[Superchicken]

I see a market for a 3rd Party finder

I do think Apple should have made an effort to develop a finder that could run Aqua or Brushed Metal. Either way I'll get used to it and look forward to panther

I think they mighta gone metal because of those whole IT"S A PANTHER thing.

[tomasboudr]

the metal look is prolifferating because of a branding effort it seems. Its all about Image. Just as corps want to have unified documents, letterhead, logos and whatnot apple wants to brand its programs arround its public successes which have been: iTunes, Quicktime, and the Powerbooks. QT has always been metal and represents apple. iTunes as well. I'm acutally surpised the iPod isn't brushed metal by now. iTunes for windows will most certainly be metal to continue this represenation to windows users. Lastly the Metal is a more distinctive look than Aqua when compared to windows. XP while not nearly as pretty as Aqua has a lot of similarly rounded elements. Maybe this is another reason for the slow migration to metal software.

The only thing I don't like about the metal is the way the sliding panels look when they slide out from under the title bar, since in the metal look the title bar isn't seperated from the rest of the window by a divider line or anything.

-Thomas

[eevyl]

Originally posted by tomasboudr:
The only thing I don't like about the metal is the way the sliding panels look when they slide out from under the title bar, since in the metal look the title bar isn't seperated from the rest of the window by a divider line or anything.

-Thomas

You get it right. I also like the brushed metal look, but as an interface, it is flawed all over the place.

Inactive and active brushed metal windows (not the widgets) are identical, no change. When you have a bunch of brushed metal windows it becomes a metal fest. You mentioned the dialog sheets, but also other interface elements just don't fit in brushed metal windows.

It works in specific apps like QT or iTunes, but as a system wide theme, it is still a work in progress. And by looking at the Panther screenshots, it seems it will continue that way for some more time.

[iFix Rene]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I see a market for a 3rd Party finder

there is already a 3rd party Finder:

...PathFinder, and the upcoming version looks
very promising.
There is a beta at
http://www.cocoatech.com/index.php?topic=Beta

imo, its what Apple should have done
If they dont give me the choice to have
Aqua Finder I will seriously consider
switching to the upcoming PathFinder

[BGK]

i am honestly not that bent out of shape over a freakin' finder.

[sushiism]

oh god no metal finder is just wrong on so many levels, Finder is the os to people, thus changing it metal is destroying all the branding you spent the past 2 years building up, And its so visually noisy, I wont be buying panther if they don't make it optional or take it out totally, i just cant look at that visual noise all day and the other features in panther aint great enough to make me put up with it

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by pendragon:
The Metal "feature" that I like (and use) is that it allows window dragging by clicking on any section/piece of the metal.

Yeah, this is nice. The metal bitmap also makes the UI widgets stand out better, which is a plus.

If only they'd bring the look to this century while retaining more of Aqua's UI consistency...

J

[Jim Paradise]

Feedback...... send feedback to Apple. I really think it's the only way that we'll possibly get an aqua Finder.

[curmi]

Agree totally about sending feedback. Do it! Log a bug if you have access to developer.apple.com.

The sad thing is though, I suspect that Apple are making no more interface changes on Panther, and only fixing bugs at this stage (though I consider Metal on the finder a bug). This means we have little chance of changing Apple's mind.

But log that bug anyway, just in case.

[iFix Rene]

brushed finder is one thing, what I really
think is too 'loud' is the selectionbox
around icons in combination with the text
beneath the icon getting a huge blue bubble

if you select 50 icons it looks really loud
and unelegant

jaguar looks way more elegant imo

[iFix Rene]

it is sort of possible to have aqua Finder


downside is that all brushed apps look this
way and there is no difference between active
and inactive titlebars

[Matt OS X]

Yeah, since it was made by Apple and I'll survive with the metal looks and I think it looks good that way.

[arekkusu]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
What do you mean slower? There's no possible way the metal could be slower -- the way the GUI is skinned is all bitmaps, TGAs, and PDFs. The metal doesn't automatically make it slower.

Yes, it does. Resize a metal window. Notice how there are two layers to the texture? The brushed metal, and a gradient across it. The brushed metal is just a bitmap pattern, but the gradient is stretched to fit the window as you resize.

If you have access to a Panther build, just resize a Finder window in both modes. It's IMMEDIATELY obvious how much slower Metal is.

[arekkusu]

Originally posted by iPond317:
And what about iTunes? iTunes came was the first metal iApp back in the days of OS 9 and pre-OS X.

Actually, it wasn't. The first metal app was Quicktime 4.

And I say that metal has no place in either Quicktime, or iTunes. It's just terrible, period.

[takai]

I reckon brushed in Panther is lovely. Creates a real feel of continuity. Seeing the brushed theme across all the mediums is a great step in my view.

[Zimphire]

I personally like the way they have it now.

[stevesnj]

Why not make it an option or a theme choice No the end all be all.

[curmi]

Some guy did a mockup of the new finder in Aqua (no icons).

http://homepage.mac.com/littlestar/no_icons.jpg

That looks so much better than the metal finder:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...ain-window.jpg

It would look even better without the wasted space in both.

Hope the 60+% of you guys who want the finder in Aqua are logging bug reports ( http://developer.apple.com ).

[iFix Rene]

...as you can see a few posts up it is
possible to implement 'sort off' (read the post)
an Aqua Finder look as in that mock-up

that pic in my post above is taken from panther, its not a mock up

also in the future Unsanity will probably
provide us with the means to disable brushed
in Finder

[curmi]

The Aqua hack though is just that. Not only do the title bars not show active or in-active, but the traffic light buttons are off centre too.

We shouldn't have to rely on a hack to fix this problem though.

But this brings up another point I hadn't considered. Metal windows don't distinguish between active and inactive via titlebars. This makes them even more difficult to work with.

[Developer]

Originally posted by curmi:
But this brings up another point I hadn't considered. Metal windows don't distinguish between active and inactive via titlebars. This makes them even more difficult to work with.

If you look closely you will notice that the text in the title bar is drawn grayish for inactive windows. That's the attention to detail we all love from Apple.

[curmi]

Originally posted by Developer:
If you look closely you will notice that the text in the title bar is drawn grayish for inactive windows. That's the attention to detail we all love from Apple.

Unfortunately though, it is too subtle. Compare with Aqua - the inactive window is much more obvious.

[sandsl]

As I understood the GUI guidelines, metal can be used when the application represents a physical device.

The finder is similar in some ways to a filing cabnet - a physical device which stores documents.

Anyhow, Apple can always change the guidelines if they need to.

There should be a choice, and Apple may let users toggle between aqua and metal in the final build...lets wait and see

Somebody will have a hack/theme/mod out, as soon as panther is released...its not really anything to get worked up about or start petitions.

I've used the brushed metal finder and I, after a while of getting used to it, like it.

[lookmark]

Another possibility is that brushed metal may yet be updated for Panther.

I could see a texture that's a little less of a dark gray, something akin to the left-hand navigation bar design in the Omni Group's updated web site. It'd sure be nice for textured to be a cross between that and what we have now...

May or may not happen, but it's a possibility. IIRC, I don't believe Jaguar's sl. flattened glass buttons were dropped in until the very last moment.

[absmiths]

Originally posted by lookmark:
Of course, Safari doesn't fit the current textured guidelines at all, and we can expect the AHIG to be updated to Panther soon, with some significant alterations. In regards to textured windows, it'll probably be a bit clearer in some areas, and (I fear) a bit even vaguer in others.

The Internet is probably considered a "Digital Peripheral" and that would certainly qualify Safari to be metal.

BTW, this whole discussion of metal especially with regards to the Finder has become so tiresome. People really need more excitement in their lives if a metal (or aqua) Finder gets them this upset.

[iFix Rene]

Originally posted by absmiths:
BTW, this whole discussion of metal especially with regards to the Finder has become so tiresome. People really need more excitement in their lives if a metal (or aqua) Finder gets them this upset.

mmmm... but you couldnt resist partaking
in the discussion anyway.

considering how much time people spend
on a mac and how much time is spend in
the Finder I dont find it strange that this
can upset people somewhat.

something you look at a lot you want to be
to your taste right?