[malique]

Anyone know if the Panther finder updates it's content by itself now? I hat when I DL something to the desktop and can't find it. Just after clicking and waiting I see what's new. LAME.

[Adam Betts]

I like that behavior. They did this to reduce the load on CPU.

[Gul Banana]

Well, I'm afraid Adam will be disappointed - it does indeed auto-update. I'm of the opinion that if it takes more CPU time to have a better interface, then so be it.

[stew]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
I like that behavior. They did this to reduce the load on CPU.

Properly implemented, this does not put any extra load on the CPU. It requires that the file system can notify applications about changed files, which is what e.g. BeOS does. I'm not 100% sure, but I think NT and IRIX do that too.

Also, regarding the amount of eye candy in OS X, it'd be really strange if Apple left out this useful feature just to save a few clock cycles.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Well, I'm afraid Adam will be disappointed - it does indeed auto-update. I'm of the opinion that if it takes more CPU time to have a better interface, then so be it.

On 7B21, the Finder definitely don't have auto-update feature.

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
On 7B21, the Finder definitely don't have auto-update feature.

That's strange, as it had it in 7A179. I'll check in 7B28 and get back to you, but maybe there were bugs and it was temporarily removed? Or, maybe I was hallucinating.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by stew:
Properly implemented, this does not put any extra load on the CPU. It requires that the file system can notify applications about changed files, which is what e.g. BeOS does. I'm not 100% sure, but I think NT and IRIX do that too.

NT/2000 most certainly do not. You have to hit F5 to get a refresh to see any changes. XP is probably the same way since it is only a modest update to Win2000.

[stew]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
NT/2000 most certainly do not. You have to hit F5 to get a refresh to see any changes. XP is probably the same way since it is only a modest update to Win2000.

I should have been more specific - I think NTFS has this feature, FAT32 on NT/2k/XP won't do that. Anyhow, I can't test it as I don't have my Windows computer here.

Still, my point remains valid: When file manager and file system are working together, it won't have any overhead worth mentioning, but will offer a big plus on the usability side.

[malique]

Still, my point remains valid: When file manager and file system are working together, it won't have any overhead worth mentioning, but will offer a big plus on the usability side. [/B]

my words man. I am wondering none requested that yet?

APPLE, LISTEN!

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by malique:
APPLE, LISTEN!

How can Apple listen to you if they've got 10,000 feature request everyday?

Don't be silly please. Apple is trying their best to listen to everyone's wishes.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by stew:
I should have been more specific - I think NTFS has this feature, FAT32 on NT/2k/XP won't do that. Anyhow, I can't test it as I don't have my Windows computer here.

Still, my point remains valid: When file manager and file system are working together, it won't have any overhead worth mentioning, but will offer a big plus on the usability side.

Nope, NTFS doesn't either. However, your point is valid.

Edit: Fixed typo.

[malique]

Don't be silly please. Apple is trying their best to listen to everyone's wishes. [/B]

you would be able to distiguish irony from silliness, wouldn't you? ;-)

Beides, I always wanted to use the emoticon

[pat++]

I've reported this tens of times to Apple. It's really lame and they should definitely implement FS node change notification like it was implemented on BeOS. It does not take any extra CPU cycle if it's correctly implemented. Send feedback to Apple. We NEED this for Panther. It's ridiculous to have to click on the desktop to make files appear.

[stew]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
Nope, NTFS doesn't either. However, you're point is valid.

Then my mind must be playing tricks on me.

[sandsl]

With a Mac OS Extended (Journaled) hard drive, running Panther (Build 7B21), it does auto-update when files are saved, downloaded etc. - files appear immediately, no need to click first.

[malique]

Originally posted by sandsl:
With a Mac OS Extended (Journaled) hard drive, running Panther (Build 7B21), it does auto-update when files are saved, downloaded etc. - files appear immediately, no need to click first.

"WE NEED SOME ANSWERS! NOW!"

(Jack Bauer, 24)

[sandsl]

Originally posted by malique:
"WE NEED SOME ANSWERS! NOW!"

(Jack Bauer, 24)

"You're a good liar. But I've seen better."
(Jack Bauer, 24)

The answer to your question is when using panther (build 7B21) with a Mac OS Extended (Journaled) hard drive, files from most apps appear/ auto-update without the need to click anywhere!

[pat++]

Originally posted by sandsl:
We don't need a debate..that is the working functionaility in build 7B21. I wish I could show you [/B]

It seems that you have a *special internal 7B21 build that noone has*™...
Can you open Terminal, enter this :

touch ~/Desktop/myfile.txt

and say that it appears on the desktop before you click on the Finder?
(I don't have Panther to test this by myself, but according to what I've read on this forum, it still does not work, even in 7B28).

[SYN]

It doesn't auto-update... yet.

Panther brings kqueue/kevent support to OSX, which is, for those who know BeOS, kinda like live-node watching, on steroids.

All Apple has to do is implement this in the Finder. I'd be surprised if they didn't do that, as it's a prime candidate for that functionality. Hopefully by final it's working.

[WJMoore]

Originally posted by SYN:
Panther brings kqueue/kevent support to OSX, which is, for those who know BeOS, kinda like live-node watching, on steroids.

I really know nothing about kevent/kqueue aside from what I read yesterday but isn't the filesystem external to the kernel (thus how does the kernel generate kevents for it)?

[sandsl]

Originally posted by pat++:
touch ~/Desktop/myfile.txt

With that terminal command you have to click the desktop before it appears.

However, when saving files from Text Edit, Safari, Hydra etc.. files do appear immediately on the desktop without having to click on the desktop.

You'll be pleased to know downloads from Safari do appear immediately, without the need for any refreshing or clicking as well.

[pat++]

Originally posted by SYN:
It doesn't auto-update... yet.

Panther brings kqueue/kevent support to OSX, which is, for those who know BeOS, kinda like live-node watching, on steroids.

All Apple has to do is implement this in the Finder. I'd be surprised if they didn't do that, as it's a prime candidate for that functionality. Hopefully by final it's working.

wow. THAT is good news ! I've been waiting for this since 10.0. Where did you get this info from? is there any public info about kqueue/kevent ?

edit: I found the FreeBSD man page.

[danengel]

They did this to reduce the load on CPU

You wouldn't even notice even if 100 folders would be checked for changes every second.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally posted by sandsl:
With that terminal command you have to click the desktop before it appears.

However, when saving files from Text Edit, Safari, Hydra etc.. files do appear immediately on the desktop without having to click on the desktop.

You'll be pleased to know downloads from Safari do appear immediately, without the need for any refreshing or clicking as well.

it does that now in Jaguar. i've never had to click on the desktop for anything to appear -- all comes up instantly...

[DVD Plaza]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
NT/2000 most certainly do not. You have to hit F5 to get a refresh to see any changes. XP is probably the same way since it is only a modest update to Win2000.

Rubbish - Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows NT, Windows 2000, and Windows XP all automatically reflect file system changes in Explorer. This happens for FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS whether local or remote.

HOWEVER, if you've mounted a NetWare connection then changes at the NetWare end are not reflected live - you must refresh to see those.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
Rubbish - Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows NT, Windows 2000, and Windows XP all automatically reflect file system changes in Explorer. This happens for FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS whether local or remote.

HOWEVER, if you've mounted a NetWare connection then changes at the NetWare end are not reflected live - you must refresh to see those.

You must be using some special build that no one else has. I've never seen Windows Explorer auto-update to reflect changes to the file system regardless of the disk format and I'm an admin of over 800 PCs.

Also, if it did auto-update, then why the hell do they have a refresh command? If it did auto-update, that command would seem rather useless.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
You must be using some special build that no one else has. I've never seen Windows Explorer auto-update to reflect changes to the file system regardless of the disk format and I'm an admin of over 800 PCs.

Also, if it did auto-update, then why the hell do they have a refresh command? If it did auto-update, that command would seem rather useless.

I've adminned 340 machines (Windows) and would have to agree with you.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
I've adminned 340 machines (Windows) and would have to agree with you.

Phew... I'm not the only one. I was wondering if I was going insane and was remembering it wrong.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
You must be using some special build that no one else has. I've never seen Windows Explorer auto-update to reflect changes to the file system regardless of the disk format and I'm an admin of over 800 PCs.

Also, if it did auto-update, then why the hell do they have a refresh command? If it did auto-update, that command would seem rather useless.

Exactly. It wasn't my imagination that I have to hit F5 to see the changes.

Doesn't the application have to make a call to cause the Finder to update? I don't program in cocoa, but I am sure I have read about it on ADC.

[Groovy]

DVD Plaza - I just tested it on my PC and there is no file auto refresh/update in XP on my box.

Are you sure you do not have third party hack or something installed that does this?

[DVD Plaza]

Examples:

1. Have someone on your network open the root of their C: drive in Explorer. On your PC remotely access their C: drive (\\PCNAME\C$) and create a file, rename a file, or whatever - within approximately 2 seconds the other user will already see the change without having done anything.

2. On your own PC open Explorer and resize it so you can still see your desktop. Using Explorer navigate to CWinNT\Profiles\YOURUSERNAME\Desktop (if WinNT) or CDocuments And Settings\YOURUSERNAME\Desktop (if 2K/XP). Create a file there or rename an existing one - within approximately 2 seconds your desktop in the background will already be showing the difference.

3. Remotely navigate to a Windows 95 PC (\\PCNAME\C$) and goto their Windows\Desktop folder. Copy an entire CD into it - within 2 seconds that person's desktop will be utterly filled with icons.

4. On Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows NT, Windows 2K, Windows XP, or whatever open two copies of Explorer side by side. Navigate them both to C. Create a file on one of them - within approximately 2 seconds the other window will already be showing the change.

5. Hell if you really want bring up Explorer on a POCKET PC, navigate to your Documents folder. Then on your PC open My Computer\My Mobile Device\POCKETNAME\Documents and dump a file there - within approximately 2 seconds Windows CE (on your Pocket PC) will already show the file.

6. If using 98/ME/2K/XP (or 95/NT with ActiveDesktop activated) open Explorer and navigate to your start menu (CWinNT\Profiles\All Users\Start Menu\Programs for WinNT, CDocuments And Settings\All Users\Start Menu\Programs for Win2K or WinXP, CWindows\Start Menu\Programs for 95, etc) and leave it there. Then click on your Start menu, point at Programs, point at one of the programs listed, RIGHT click it, select RENAME, type a new name, click OK. Within approximately 2 seconds your Explorer Window will already reflect the change.

etc.etc.etc.etc.

This has been a standard function of Windows since Windows 3.0, when (back then) people would whinge that the File Manager polling would impact performance (there was an INI setting that could override the timing of it). These days such performance impacts (due to hardware, file systems, operating systems, etc) it is pretty much irrelevant. All you can do now is turn the auto-refresh on or off. The registry setting for that is:

HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Update\Updat e Mode

The default value is 1 (on).

[MaxPower2k3]

i think that's because all of the tasks you described were performed within explorer. when you perform an action in explorer, it probably has to refresh itself for the action to show in the place you made it, but that's probably a systemwide refresh of explorer.exe. so, when you rename a file, it refreshes to show the new filename in the window where you renamed it, but any other open windows consequently also get refreshed. try opening notepad with an explorer window in the background where you can see it and save a text file to the open folder and see if it shows up instantly.

[DVD Plaza]

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
that's probably a systemwide refresh of explorer.exe

No, Windows signals there has been a file system change. Just like if one were to change the time, Windows sends out a signal that the time has changed (so that any necessary apps can adjust). If you change your colours Windows sends out a signal that there has been a colour change, so all apps can adjust.

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
try opening notepad with an explorer window in the background where you can see it and save a text file to the open folder and see if it shows up instantly.

Approximately 0.1 of a second.

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by pat++:
wow. THAT is good news ! I've been waiting for this since 10.0. Where did you get this info from? is there any public info about kqueue/kevent ?

edit: I found the FreeBSD man page.

It says so on the Panther Server page on Apple.com. Something like Panther Server includes improvements in FreeBSD 4.8 and 5, including support for kqueue/kevent and some other stuff. You can find it yourself if you really want, there's not much more detail though.

[DVD Plaza]

To expand on that test...

7a. Open Explorer on one side of your screen. Navigate to the root of C:. Create a folder called Test. Double click the Test folder so that its contents (which will be empty) are shown in the right hand pane.

7b. Open Paint. Open Notepad. Open Wordpad. Move them all to the right side of your screen, over the top of one another, so that you can see Explorer on your left.

7c. Hit the save button on Wordpad. Navigate to CTest and click OK to accept the default filename. File appears instantly (well, 0.1 of a second)

7d. Select File/Save As in Paint. Navigate to CTest and click OK to accept the default filename. File appears instantly.

7e. Select File/Save As in NotePad. Navigate to CTest and give it a filename. Click OK. File appears instantly.

Now, let's expand on that further by stepping out of the GUI.

8. Leave Explorer open, and fire up the Windows command prompt (Start/Run and type cmd, or Start/Programs/Accessories/Command Prompt or Start/Programs/Command Prompt). Type cd \Test, hit enter, and then type md test8 and hit enter. Approximately 2 seconds later your Explorer window will show the file.

9. Still leaving Explorer open, fire up the MS-DOS emulator (Start/Run and type command and click OK). Type cd \Test, hit enter, and then type md test9 and hit enter. Approximately 2 seconds later your Explorer window will show the file.

10+ Test using any application you like - there's nothing you can do to stop the refresh, except using the registry setting, because it's a Windows API message that's being sent to signal a file system change. I say again, this functionality has existed since Windows 3.0.

[DVD Plaza]

468. Open a shared folder (or share one out) using Explorer. Sort the folder by Date. Have your 800 users begin madly create files and modify files as fast as they possibly can. Sit there and watch the folder change its contents/order every 2 or so seconds. Have your users stop, and notice your Windows suddenly makes no changes, then have them all highlight a bunch of files and notice a few seconds later they all vanish from your screen.

[DVD Plaza]

469a. Open Explorer and go to the CTest folder you created in step 7a

469b. Open Notepad and go File/Open

469c. Navigate to CTest and notice the text file listed there that you created in step 7e.

469d. Go to your Explorer window and nuke the text file sitting in that folder. Notice that the file ALSO instantly vanishes from the File/Open window of Notepad.

[00101001]

properly coded Cocoa apps are responsible for telling the finder that they modified files.

specifically, the NSWorkspace method noteFileSystemChanged:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...00391/BCIIDGDJ

[Spliff]

Originally posted by stew:
Properly implemented, this does not put any extra load on the CPU. It requires that the file system can notify applications about changed files, which is what e.g. BeOS does. I'm not 100% sure, but I think NT and IRIX do that too.

Also, regarding the amount of eye candy in OS X, it'd be really strange if Apple left out this useful feature just to save a few clock cycles.

Doesn't OS 9 have this capability? Or are we talking about something different? I don't remember having to click the desktop in OS 8 or 9 to make a downloaded file appear.

[kmkkid]

My XP desktop auto-refreshes when a new file is created.


Chris

[version]

I hope auto-updating is in there, it's a nice feature. IRIX has a great file system, and GUI for things like this. If I expand some files via the shell, it feels like it's appeared in the directory before I even hit return. Nice

[Simon]

Originally posted by Spliff:
Doesn't OS 9 have this capability?

OS 9 had this capability indeed. I would like to hear form a developer how it was implemented. Did the FS send an event to the Finder or did the Finder just check every so often?

It seems OS X wasn't up to the same nice behaviour (up to now?). In Jaguar I know that if I do a

cp ./something ~/Desktop/

that it won't show on my desktop until I click on the desktop. It seems (from reports) Panther has improved this.

[OT]
As to Windows: My NT machine at work does not show files I create in any app in the Explorer window for a very very long time. I haven't timed it with a watch, but it takes so long I stopped waiting and used the "Update" command instead.
[/OT]

[Angus_D]

In OS X, there are so many more levels and so much more hitting the disk than on OS 9.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Simon:
OS 9 had this capability indeed. I would like to hear form a developer how it was implemented. Did the FS send an event to the Finder or did the Finder just check every so often?

I assume the Finder was polling more often. It doesn't do that on OS X for performance reasons.

In OS X applications are supposed to send notifications about changed files. This happens automatically if Navigation Services are used for example, but an application can do so explicitly (like when a download is finished - no Nav dialog was involved there). The original poster should complain at the download manager/web browser maker to fix this.

Unix command like applications don't know/bother about this of course. But I believe this is an acceptable compromise. If you know how to cp, you also know how to ls.


http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1260.html

[Simon]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
In OS X, there are so many more levels and so much more hitting the disk than on OS 9.

I'm not sure about OS X hitting the disk much more than OS 9 really.

If you have plenty of RAM so that the OS isn't swapping the whole time, I get the impression it actually hits the disk far less than OS 9. I have got the impression that my disk goes asleep quite a lot and when I start doing stuff and putting load on the machine it can sometimes take up to a minute until the I get the beachball when the disk has to spin up again. Whereas with OS 9 the disk had to spin up almost immediately when you woke the Mac from sleep.

Of course that's just my experience. No big technical facts to back that up.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
You must be using some special build that no one else has. I've never seen Windows Explorer auto-update to reflect changes to the file system regardless of the disk format and I'm an admin of over 800 PCs.

Also, if it did auto-update, then why the hell do they have a refresh command? If it did auto-update, that command would seem rather useless.

Well, I must be an idiot then because my Windows system auto-updates too. Granted that it isn't instant, it takes a couple seconds, but it does it.