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benbargagliotti · Aug 25, 2003, 03:19 PM

We use Microsoft Exchange for our email at school, but the IT folks are so paranoid about security that they won't open IMAP or SMTP ports for mail. Apparently, you don't need these for Outlook 2001 or the windows version, but this new update for Entourage X still needs IMAP and SMTP. I've heard that Mail.app in Panther has Exchange support. does anyone know if this is still heavily server-side dependent like Entourage, or is it real exchange support? thanks

Ben

Moose · Aug 25, 2003, 03:25 PM

It does not support MAPI, if that's what you're asking.

MAPI is not the measure of "real" Exchange support, because Exchange supports IMAP natively.

However, not all deployments of Exchange do.

SoClose · Aug 25, 2003, 03:36 PM

From what I hear, the Outlook support in Apple Mail is actually pretty darn sneaky. From the rumor I've heard and a demo long-ago, it can use IMAP (no MAPI calls, those are Windows-only) and can also log into Outlook Web Access (OWA) and essentially screen-scrape e-mail from the web interface. This might have been only in the demo version I saw, but it was very cool and got around many of the integration issues. The only problem was that it was slow.

I guess we'll just have to wait until Panther is released to find out!

Moose · Aug 25, 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by SoClose:
From what I hear, the Outlook support in Apple Mail is actually pretty darn sneaky. From the rumor I've heard and a demo long-ago, it can use IMAP (no MAPI calls, those are Windows-only)

Neg. The Classic Outlook 2001 client speaks MAPI.

and can also log into Outlook Web Access (OWA) and essentially screen-scrape e-mail from the web interface. This might have been only in the demo version I saw, but it was very cool and got around many of the integration issues. The only problem was that it was slow.

I'd thought that was only for Public Folders, but that may just because I have IMAP enabled on my Exchange server.

Evolution has an "Exchange compatibility" plugin for ~$70 that does this.

Also, HTTP is another protocol that your Exchange administrators need to be running and have enabled for your mailbox. It's not a given that OWA is running. For example, not everybody in my organization is allowed to use OWA. Corporate politics in action.

laxthxdude · Aug 25, 2003, 04:30 PM

Any exchange admins that refuse to enable IMAP because of 'security' concerns are simply 'giving you an excuse'. Fact: Microsoft is slowing moving away from MAPI for Outlook/Exchange because: Its slow, its got more holes in its security than swiss cheese and the protocol hasn't evolved over the years. IMAP4 is actually in Exchange 2000 by default and its turned on by default. The only way it wouldn't work is if your Exchange Admins turned it off. SMTP has to be enabled, or Exchange won't run (so this should be on for you). What they may have done is to restrict SMTP relay off from the Exchange system for your account/computer.

Exchange 2003 with Outlook Web Access is actually very nice and standards compliant. It has 95% of the functions of full Outlook and it even looks identical to it.

I've tried Exchange support in Mail (Panther) and it works fine, but IMAP has to be enabled on the Exchange system. It lacks the ability to integrate with calendaring/scheduling so it is limited.

Address Book integrates with Exchange GAL, but again, they LDAP port (389) will have to be opened on the domain controller(s).

iCal doesn't (as far as I know) link into Exchange for Calendaring, however I wouldn't be surprised to see it coming.

Entourage with the update does connect to Exchange, but it is not over MAPI but instead IMAP. It shows calendars, etc., but it is also not a 'outlook' replacement.

To have a true messaging solution MS really needs to get clients out there for more than just Windows. They need a FULL Mac OS X client and a Linux client. The linux will never happen, but the OS X client needs to. Or else they need to split the development of Entourage into an Exchange version that is FREE (are your reading this MS???) so our Mac users can run outlook and exchange like the PC users....

Honestly, the best bet is probably Exchange 2003 with OWA for non-Windows clients... Better yet, buy OpenExchange from Suse or Groupware from Stalker...

MS's "exchange" support in Entourage is really a lame attempt... GET WITH IT MS!

brainchild2b · Aug 25, 2003, 06:04 PM

Tell your local sysadmin that I called him a "retard" and that I think he should quit his job out of respect for his co-workers. Then give him my email address so I can explain to him why he's stupid and should enable IMAP for you.

If that doesn't work, quit and get a job that has a real sysadmin. Besides who knows, maybe next they will take away your ability to run programs due to security risks.

clebin · Aug 25, 2003, 06:14 PM

Outlook Web Access is indeed very like the full Outlook client these days... or atleast if you're using IE for Windows it is. I think with the newer OWA versions on IE, Microsoft are using some extensions to HTTP for WebDAV, which could be something to hook into.

The thought of screen-scraping is like scraping nails down a blackboard to me! I'm not an expect, but it doesn't sound like a robust solution..!

Some kind of partnership with Ximian, who sell an Exchange connector for their Evolution, would be an excellent way of doing providing support, because it would be Ximian's responsibility to keep abreast of Microsoft's latest protocol whims..

Chris

clebin · Aug 25, 2003, 06:17 PM

Like I said in another thread. Why didn't Microsoft Carbonise Outlook for OS 9, FFS? It was a newish product, which means the codebase would be nice and up-to-date. No System 6 calls in there I'm sure!

I can't believe that it is taking this long to take the Exchange server support piece, and plonk it into a OS X Carbon application. Is it tactical or can't they be arsed?

Chris

Art Vandelay · Aug 25, 2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by clebin:
Like I said in another thread. Why didn't Microsoft Carbonise Outlook for OS 9, FFS? It was a newish product, which means the codebase would be nice and up-to-date. No System 6 calls in there I'm sure!

I can't believe that it is taking this long to take the Exchange server support piece, and plonk it into a OS X Carbon application. Is it tactical or can't they be arsed?

Chris

It may have not been that clean of an app. It was an update of previous Mac Exchange clients that have been around for awhile. Also, it was developed by the Exchange team, not the Mac BU. Who knows what horrors may lie inside of it.

clebin · Aug 25, 2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
It may have not been that clean of an app. It was an update of previous Mac Exchange clients that have been around for awhile. Also, it was developed by the Exchange team, not the Mac BU. Who knows what horrors may lie inside of it.

Sorry, I thought it was a rewrite.... Got to say, though, on the outside it was a lovely app.

Chris