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tvfollower · Sep 14, 2003, 05:07 PM

Debian can be made just as beautiful as OS X, it's free, and it runs insanely fast on new, cheap PCs...

So I'm just wondering what makes Macs better.

(Just for the record...I love Macs, and my next computer will be a Mac, but I'm just curious as to what makes them better than PCs running Debian.)

Some Guy [] · Sep 14, 2003, 05:17 PM

hahahahaha.... wait, ok.

-justin

ZackS · Sep 14, 2003, 05:21 PM

Most commercial software will not run natively.
Linux cannot be made as beautiful, but sort of close.
It can be a bitch to set up and troubleshoot.
You have to literally beat your peripherals into submission.
Even fewer games than the Mac
Ridiculous arcane bits about the system. (Resolution changing)
The package system makes Jesus cry.
It's not much faster than OS X when running full KDE and an OS X theme.

But then again, it is free and stable...

MacGorilla · Sep 14, 2003, 07:19 PM

Debian isn't meant to be compared to OSes such as Mac OS X. They're in different leagues. I run Debian on my old PC here and its awesome but its no Mac.

entrox · Sep 15, 2003, 03:44 AM

I've been running Debian exclusively for three years before I got finally fed up with this "RTFM", "That's the beauty of Open Source: You can do it yourself" or "Just get the diff from CVS and compile it yourself" crap and bought a Mac. If you want the better parts of Debian, just install Fink. It uses the Debian package format and apt - just don't touch dselect - it's the tool of the devil to drive you insane.

bracken · Sep 15, 2003, 04:56 AM

Don't feed the troll.

msuper69 · Sep 15, 2003, 05:58 AM

tvfollower · Sep 15, 2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by bracken:
Don't feed the troll.

Originally posted by Some Guy []:
hahahahaha.... wait, ok.

Um...excuse me? What is so funny about my question, justin? Don't feed the troll, bracken? I asked a simple question about Debian vs. Macs. Your attitudes are truly uncalled for.

Thank you entrox and ZackS, you pretty much answered my question. I guess it's good to have a stable company behind your OS.

Scarpa · Sep 15, 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
So I'm just wondering what makes Macs better.

User experience.

I've run Debian. I found out about it via Knoppix. I went and installed the core system. I even got Samba, dhcpd, apache and bind running. Then I tried to install Xfree86. Shortly afterward I gave up and resigned the box to be a headless server.

I've run MacOS. I opened up my Powerbook G4. Pressed the power button. Went to work.

There's nothing Debian offers me professionally that Mac OS can't match (or exceed in most cases). There's nothing Debian offers me *personally* that Mac OS can't match.

So there you have it.

You do seem like a troll btw.

moki · Sep 15, 2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
Debian can be made just as beautiful as OS X, it's free, and it runs insanely fast on new, cheap PCs...

If you think there is anything close to equivalency between Debian and MacOS X, I'm afraid we can't help you here.

tvfollower · Sep 15, 2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by moki:

If you think there is anything close to equivalency between Debian and MacOS X, I'm afraid we can't help you here.

Um...a Mac OS X theme, I was thinking. There is some closeness there...

And how the hell am I a troll? How am I "one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"? I was just asking a question!

CharlesS · Sep 15, 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
Um...a Mac OS X theme, I was thinking. There is some closeness there...

And how the hell am I a troll? How am I "one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"? I was just asking a question!

The problem is that the answer to your question is "Argh" with a capital A.

"What advantages does a Ferrari have over a Yugo? The Yugo can look just as good because I can paint it the same color!" Argh!

"How is a piece by J. S. Bach better than something by Kenny G? I can transpose it to the same key!" Argh!

tvfollower · Sep 15, 2003, 09:32 PM

I'm sorry, but I was just looking for a comparison. There is a reason why I said that my next computer will be a Mac, not a PC running Debian.

wataru · Sep 15, 2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
I'm sorry, but I was just looking for a comparison. There is a reason why I said that my next computer will be a Mac, not a PC running Debian.

Sometimes it's hard for people to understand that things aren't as obvious from the outside.

Like has been said already, the biggest difference is that everything on a Mac just works, and with the least amount of effort possible.

tvfollower · Sep 15, 2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
Sometimes it's hard for people to understand that things aren't as obvious from the outside.

Like has been said already, the biggest difference is that everything on a Mac just works, and with the least amount of effort possible.

Thanks, at least you understand

. But what if setup really isn't much of an issue for me?

Gene Jockey · Sep 15, 2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
Thanks, at least you understand . But what if setup really isn't much of an issue for me?

Oh, it is. Coercing Debian to work never really gets any easier. At least I can thank Ben Herrenschmidt for making things less than terrible. But the difference in setup dificulty from OS X to debian is laughably far from trivial.

But if you're so curious, why don't you just go get it? debian.org, it's all there. Have fun.

--Josh

tvfollower · Sep 15, 2003, 11:57 PM

Haha, I'll be getting a cheap Linux box, and will be installing Debian on it shortly.

Will I be converted back to PCs? I highly, highly, highly doubt it.

historylme · Sep 16, 2003, 12:53 AM

Have we heard from Jobs yet, I want to know what I will be druling over...

and Mac X rules... it simply does for all the aforementioned reasons... and because it's simply works at any level of operation.

Gene Jockey · Sep 16, 2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by tvfollower:
Haha, I'll be getting a cheap Linux box, and will be installing Debian on it shortly.

Will I be converted back to PCs? I highly, highly, highly doubt it.

Report back on how it goes. I've only installed debian on PPC hardware; I've only heard second-hand reports of it being a pain on x86. Hope you have good luck.

--J

entrox · Sep 16, 2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
Report back on how it goes. I've only installed debian on PPC hardware; I've only heard second-hand reports of it being a pain on x86. Hope you have good luck.

It's not really a pain - you just have to know what you're doing (similar to Slackware). There are no wizards or helpers, which set everything up for you. You'll have to read the manuals for stuff like Exim, XFree86 and pppd. The only real pain on Debian is dselect, but there are other front-ends to apt and dpkg like Aptitude.

It's bearable and the best Linux distribution IMHO, but after a while you just want something "that works". Having to patch the kernel, because there are no official drivers for your Wacom tablet is not fun - especially not if you have to do it for half of your hardware.

Arkham_c · Sep 16, 2003, 08:43 AM

There's nothing wrong with Debian, or with Linux in general. It's a phenominal server OS. If you're a UNIX geek, it's a pretty nice desktop too when you run KDE or Gnome.

With that said, it's not in any way on par with MacOS X. OSX has so many subtle advantages that it's easy to lose track. Stuff that should be simple (adding a printer, changing screen resolution, connecting to a remote server to share files) is not on Linux. It can all be done (and in many cases uses the same underlying software as OSX), but it's not as easy.

K++ · Sep 16, 2003, 09:51 AM

Okay, here we go. Before I start, I love Debian, its is by far the best linux out there. That said it is no where near OS X in terms of well anything.

Debian forces you to learn the things about your machine that you shouldn't have to know. You have to manually configure everything. I enjoy this sort of thing, most people don't. For me it takes about 2/3 days to install Debian and get it to where I like, running Fluxbux, and portions of Gnome like nautilus, and its extras. XFree86 isn't hard since XFree86 -configure will spit out a semi-wokring config. And nowadays NVIDIA has actually provided us with a simple installer for thier drivers so that those now work easily enough.

However, the reason I like that is the fine-control over my system from having installed EVERYTHING manually 1 by 1. This is the most extreme Linux install since dselect could have been used or something else, but I fell that dselect is the devil. When I install debian a fresh isntall has basically nothing more than the basics, hell I don't even have less by default, and we all know less is greater than more.

How about OS X? Well thats simple. It works. I don't have to compile my kernel for support of ANYTHING, I don't have to create symlinks, edit my fstab, manually mount external and network shares, run or edit cups directly, it all just works. I plug in new hardware and use it. No searching or installing drivers, no nothing, no annoying little bubble telling me new hardware was found.

Software:
This must be stressed, no offense to OSS, but they really need to institute better Quality Assurance. EVERY single linux app has some issue or another and some are intermittent requiring you to know the fix or workaround. Some apps shine like Mozilla, and emacs. Others make you wonder why did they even bother like dcgui(GTK) not dc-gui(Qt). And even dc-gui has its issues. On OS X I have lots of applications and they all work well. They all follow the same HIG that wasn't adapted recently but has been used to design apps since the inception of my OS. I have major vendor apps like Photoshop, and Dreamweaver running alongside my emacs, and mplayer windows. (I compile my mplayer, I hate the GUI)

So In short, Debian is for those hardcore computer geeks who enjoy messing with devices and hardware and the nuances of cryptic files that possess the magic fire of your OS's existence. OS X is for those with projects that were due yesterday and they finally got to em today and have no time to waste with anything that isn't that project.

theolein · Sep 17, 2003, 06:37 AM

I run debian myself on my old PC at home and use it as a router and file server and overall webapp testing device, and I do all this from the command line. I like it a lot: plain, simple (apt-yeah!) and does not have to have loads of services and daemons running or installed that you do not want.

That said, while KDE and Gnome have made huge advances, commercial applications such as those from Adobe, Macromedia and Microsoft don't run on Linux and Quartz is a step ahead in terms of compositing technology (not that anyone uses this to it's full extent but still...).

There's also the question of ease and integration. Setting up OSX is a lot easier than debian (one click basically) and drivers will be available for all your devices, and you won't have to drive yourself nuts compiling sound into the kernel for your exotic x86 laptop. And not to forget instant wakeup from sleep.

But, in the end, it's your choice. Me I love Apple's Powerbooks and the new G5. While I don't have money for a G5 or a new Powerbook at the moment, I would buy both on the spot if I could. I have yet to see any x86 merchant, including Sony, make machines that have the allure of Apple's hardware.

Good luck.

Mastrap · Sep 17, 2003, 07:13 AM

"Linux is only free if your time has no value"

stew · Sep 17, 2003, 08:25 AM

I like GNU/Linux on Apple hardware, especially portables. My iBook has a partition with Gentoo on it, and I enjoy using it. Not only is it noticeably snappier

and offers me more options in terms of what fonts I want on screen and how I want them to be AA'd (I don't like Quartz fonts when it comes to heavy text work like programming) but there are also a lot of valuable programs that don't have working OS X ports - e.g. Ardour (multitrack HD recorder) or Pixie (RenderMan compliant renderer).