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aapljack · Oct 25, 2003, 05:31 PM

I have found that expose will not reveal windows of hidden apps. I really don't like this since I always use ASM in single application mode to automatically hide background apps. I want to be able to have ALL running apps windows be visible with expose, not just unhidden ones. Is there a work-around? I'm very disappointed about this.

-b

ShotgunEd · Oct 25, 2003, 05:40 PM

Expos� should replace the need for using single application mode. Plus you can't expect Apple to tailor a feature to work with a third party hack. If an app is hidden it should stay hidden, even if you use expos�. You could try sending feedback and requesting they implement it as an option.

aapljack · Oct 25, 2003, 05:59 PM

ASM might be a third party 'hack', but hiding applications surely is not. If you manually hide the apps, the same thing happens. So it has nothing to do with ASM.

I will be mailing Apple.

-b

antisonne · Oct 25, 2003, 06:04 PM

The point of hiding apps is to hide them, I personally would not like to hide something lets say if someone walked in and then switch apps and have that pop up.

icruise · Oct 25, 2003, 06:04 PM

I much prefer to be able to manually hide some programs and not have them show up in the expose�L list, so I like it the way it is. I think expose�L will change the way we use the "hide" function, though. While I used to hide windows just to get them out of the way, with expose�L, I will be only hiding things that I know I won't be using soon.

ShotgunEd · Oct 25, 2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by aapljack:
ASM might be a third party 'hack', but hiding applications surely is not. If you manually hide the apps, the same thing happens. So it has nothing to do with ASM.

I will be mailing Apple.

-b

The way ASM uses hiding to simulate single window mode is a hack. And like i said before, if you hide an app, expos� should respect the fact that its hidden. But i suppose an option wouldn't be too hard to implement, i doubt they'd do it though.

fetopher · Oct 25, 2003, 07:58 PM

Seems like what should happen is when you activate expose, all windows in all apps appear, hidden or not. Then once you have made your selection, the windows that were hidden go back to being hidden, the widows that weren't return back to their state, and the window you selected comes to font. This could be an option you could select in Expose prefs. I typically use command-option click to hide all other apps. I know expose will change the way I do things, but I still think I will be hiding a lot of things. What do you think?

moonmonkey · Oct 25, 2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by aapljack:
ASM might be a third party 'hack', but hiding applications surely is not. If you manually hide the apps, the same thing happens. So it has nothing to do with ASM.

I will be mailing Apple.

-b

Why?

If the app is hidden you are not using it.

Dale Sorel · Oct 25, 2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
If the app is hidden you are not using it.

Exactly

keston · Oct 25, 2003, 08:38 PM

I agree that expose not showing hidden apps becomes annoying. Kinda makes the OS's hide feature (using cmd-H) not so friendly. You have to be aware of not using it, if you want to use expose for your appp switching (because if you use it, the app wont show up in expoe's windows). So the way expose behaves right now, it falls short for an application switcher method.

Btw, off topic: Liteswitch X works great still in Panther and overrides the built-in one.

chabig · Oct 25, 2003, 08:46 PM

So the way expose behaves right now, it falls short for an application switcher method.

Right you are! That's because Expos� is not an application switcher. It's a system for managing the visible windows and their clutter. As such, it works perfectly.

Chris

dtsblue · Oct 25, 2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
If the app is hidden you are not using it.

Absolutely not true, hiding an app does not mean you're not using it. I can think of a dozen different reasons why to hide apps (e.g. to avoid distracting screen clutter in graphics work etc). and still require quick access to windows from other apps. I think not including hidden windows into expose (at least as an option) is certainly an interface inconsistency, both practically and conceptually. Anybody who agrees, please send your feedback to apple.

Dale Sorel · Oct 25, 2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by keston:
I agree that expose not showing hidden apps becomes annoying. Kinda makes the OS's hide feature (using cmd-H) not so friendly.

OK, why don't you do something like what I did...go into System Preferences->Keyboard and Mouse->Keyboard Shortcuts and make a new shortcut for all applications that shows all apps. I used Command-Option-Shift-H myself, and it works just fine

aapljack · Oct 25, 2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Why?

If the app is hidden you are not using it.

That is not true. When I am using an app I don't like the other background apps cluttering up my screen. Apps I am usually switching back and forth to include Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, etc. I like to be able to click on the desktop and see the desktop. I know that expos� will do this, but old habits are hard to break. I have been using auto-hiding/single app mode since os8.

It doesn't seem like it would be such a big deal for Apple to include an option in the expos� pref panel where you can have expos� show all running application windows, hidden or not.

Well, I am trying to not use auto-hide for now. That way if they don't update expos� to show hidden apps, I'll be ready.

-b

dtsblue · Oct 25, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by aapljack:
It doesn't seem like it would be such a big deal for Apple to include an option in the expos� pref panel where you can have expos� show all running application windows, hidden or not.

I think it would be fairly easy, just requires enough people to complain: OS X Feedback

Jim_MDP · Oct 26, 2003, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
OK, why don't you do something like what I did...go into System Preferences->Keyboard and Mouse->Keyboard Shortcuts and make a new shortcut for all applications that shows all apps. I used Command-Option-Shift-H myself, and it works just fine

Hmmm... I thought this was slick so I gave it a go. No joy. Any more details? I've never bother using this before.

aapljack · Oct 26, 2003, 12:49 AM

I have started a thread about this on the Apple discussion board. After you send feedback to Apple, post about it on this thread.

-b

Tommo · Oct 26, 2003, 05:15 AM

I can't believe how one-sided some peoples' views are. There's no right or wrong in this argument. Some people might like to have hidden apps stay hidden, irrespective of their use of the expos� feature, and others (me included) would like hidden, or docked windows, to also be brought to the fore when expos� is used. I send a lot of web pages to the dock for easy and quick reference when I'm browsing (Safari lacking a decent 'pageholder' or 'scrapbook' feature like Explorer has had for years now), as I do with multiple MS Word windows. It really annoys me to have to go to the dock to retrieve them when I feel they should appear when I use expos�. Any laptop owner will concurr with me when I say that screen estate is at a premium, and just because a window might be in the background, doesn't mean it doeasn't add to visual clutter on the screen unless it is minimised to the dock, or hidden.
Frankly its even more annoying when you're using two monitors for layout or graphic design work, and the mouse is all the way over on one screen, to have to track over to the other and go down to the dock to retrieve a window, just because it won't appear when you invoke expos�. UI features are meant to make people's usage of their Macs easier, and more intuitive, and if so many people would like to have expos� offer the ability to show hidden/minimised apps and windows, well then it ought to offer that functionality as a Preference, because it obviously isn't a flexible enough UI feature as it stands, brilliant in concept, and execution, though it undeniably is.

So what would be wrong with a simple option in expos� preferences to either include or omitt hidden and/or minimised apps/windows? Stop arguing and start giving feedback to Apple.

Stop this Expos� Bigotry now!

ShotgunEd · Oct 26, 2003, 05:37 AM

We're not being one-sided. We suggested that supplying an option would be the best move and merely explained why it works the way it does. Hardly bigotry.

Plus expos� is a brand new feature, I'm sure it'll be modified in the future to work in an even better way than we can think of.

sniffer · Oct 26, 2003, 07:04 AM

I think it makes perfectly sense. For instance I always tends to have Preference and Mail app open at any time, but I rarely needs them. So I just hide them into the Dock, and they are out of the way. No need to clutter Expos� with apps you want to have running but doesn't want to show up. I think this just'll take a little time to adopt for some, but it makes sense to me at least.

keston · Oct 26, 2003, 09:26 AM

I agree with the suggestion for an option/check-box in expose's preferences along the lines of "Include Hidden Applications". That would be great, and everybody would be happy.

Dale Sorel · Oct 26, 2003, 03:34 PM

I'll tell you what, if you think I want my gazilliion stickies visible every time I use Expos�/all windows, you're crazy

fetopher · Oct 26, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
I'll tell you what, if you think I want my gazilliion stickies visible every time I use Expos�/all windows, you're crazy

Yeah, that would suck. That's why it would be best implemented as an option. I think like most UI elements, it's a matter of habit and personal preference. I prefer to have as many options available and let the user decide which to turn on.

stevesnj · Oct 26, 2003, 03:53 PM

This is posted on Apple's OS X page;

Using function keys.
By default, F9 tiles all open windows; F10 tiles all open windows for the current application; and F11 hides all open windows so you can see the contents of your desktop.

It seems that hidden applications are not involved in Expose's features. Only open windows on the desktop are involved. Expose seems to be a feature for the desktop not for applications.

aapljack · Oct 26, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by stevesnj:
This is posted on Apple's OS X page;

Using function keys.
By default, F9 tiles all open windows; F10 tiles all open windows for the current application; and F11 hides all open windows so you can see the contents of your desktop.

It seems that hidden applications are not involved in Expose's features. Only open windows on the desktop are involved. Expose seems to be a feature for the desktop not for applications.

I don't think that is true. It doesn't say 'all open unhidden windows', it says 'all open windows'. Just because an apps windows are hidden, they are still open and in use.

Bottomline, we need an option for including or not including hidden/minimized apps.

-b

keston · Oct 27, 2003, 01:36 AM

I also just noticed that "Docked/Minimized" windows aren't included either.... am I supposed to change ALL my habbits to be able to use expose? Sometimes I minimize a window to just get it out of the way temporarily, but I'd still like to see it when I activate expose. We really need some options/preferences

sniffer · Oct 27, 2003, 02:22 AM

The thing I hated about minimising to Dock, is that it's kind of messy if you have minimised windows from several apps. Besides I never liked to use the mouse to search for the right window in the Dock. Alternatively I could just hide the windows behind the others and click on the window tab on the menu, but that also meant using the mouse and search for the right window you want to put in front. With Expos� I just click on F10, reconise the correct window, use arrows key to navigate and click enter. It's much more convinient for me this way, since I reconize the correct window instantly and doesn't have to use the mouse. The out of way, out of sight idea, when minimised makes perfectly sense, as it also accour when apps are minimazed.
For me Expos� have in many ways solved my problem with windows navigation, and the Dock have now a more specific task, which is holding and hiding apps and windows. Makes perfectly sense for me IMHO. I feel that when people here really gets the hold on using Expos�, and get used to the idea that the Dock is for hiding apps and windows, and Expos� is for window handling, you will wonder how you managed with out it, really.

gbafan · Oct 27, 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by stevesnj:
This is posted on Apple's OS X page;

Using function keys.
By default, F9 tiles all open windows; F10 tiles all open windows for the current application; and F11 hides all open windows so you can see the contents of your desktop.

It seems that hidden applications are not involved in Expose's features. Only open windows on the desktop are involved. Expose seems to be a feature for the desktop not for applications.

Amen.

Expos� works as it was intended and I personally love it. No need to complain on multiple message boards about it.

awaspaas · Oct 27, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by keston:
... am I supposed to change ALL my habbits to be able to use expose?

WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

p.s. "habbits?"

fetopher · Oct 27, 2003, 03:07 PM

I've never understood why people complain about people who want to have the OPTION to add something. An option means both sides are happy.

aapljack · Oct 27, 2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by gbafan:
No need to complain on multiple message boards about it.

My intention isn't to complain about it, but to offer suggestions (ie feedback) about how I think it could be better, with more options. The more places people are discussing it, the more likely Apple developers will see it and pay attention.

-b

phrenzy · Oct 27, 2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by fetopher:
I've never understood why people complain about people who want to have the OPTION to add something. An option means both sides are happy.

Amen. WTF - The 'Anti-Tabs' brigade comes out from under their bridge yet again.

Hey, if you don't need the option - guess what - DON'T USE IT!

Nobody is arguing to REPLACE the current functionality with the ability to show hidden windows - just to AUGMENT it.

Snivlers

mrtew · Oct 27, 2003, 10:36 PM

I also don't like the way Expose whisks away screensavers running on the desktop via BackLight or Xback as if they are just another window. I realize they are another 3rd party hack but Apple could easily take this kind of popular stuff into accound when they are coming up with their latest brainchild!

fetopher · Oct 28, 2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by mrtew:
I also don't like the way Expose whisks away screensavers running on the desktop via BackLight or Xback as if they are just another window. I realize they are another 3rd party hack but Apple could easily take this kind of popular stuff into accound when they are coming up with their latest brainchild!

I'm guessing that it has to do with the way the app defines its windows. For example, in VLC, when you are playing a video and have it set to float on top of all windows, expose fades it out. But if you have it set normal like every other window, expose treats it like it would any other window. After third part developers learn the ins and outs of expose, they will know how to make the windows act just the way you want them to in regards to expose.

GENERAL_SMILEY · Oct 28, 2003, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by awaspaas:
...p.s. "habbits?"

One ring to rule them all, one ring to bind them?

mrtew · Oct 28, 2003, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by fetopher:
I'm guessing that it has to do with the way the app defines its windows. For example, in VLC, when you are playing a video and have it set to float on top of all windows, expose fades it out. But if you have it set normal like every other window, expose treats it like it would any other window. After third part developers learn the ins and outs of expose, they will know how to make the windows act just the way you want them to in regards to expose.

So you think it could be possible for BackLight to be written so that Expose could leave it running on the desktop untouched? I hope so.

JKT · Oct 28, 2003, 07:39 AM

Doesn't it make sense that e.g. simply using the option key as a modifier ought to activate a "show all open windows" mode for the F9 and F10 options (not needed for F11) so that hidden and/or minimised windows are also brought to the fore? The argument against having this capability is extraordinarily stupid IMO - what if I want to use Expose to drag and drop something between two windows in different apps? As it stands, if one of those apps is hidden I have to first show that app before I activate Expose... in which instance I may as well not use Expose at all.

keston · Oct 28, 2003, 07:45 AM

I agree completely, as cool as expose's "All Window Mode" is, if i have to make extra steps to see all windows i might as well not be using it. For the option key for all windows, it wouldn't do well for a "quick-action" (eg. when using hot corners instead of keyboard).

Originally posted by JKT:
Doesn't it make sense that e.g. simply using the option key as a modifier ought to activate a "show all open windows" mode for the F9 and F10 options (not needed for F11) so that hidden and/or minimised windows are also brought to the fore? The argument against having this capability is extraordinarily stupid IMO - what if I want to use Expose to drag and drop something between two windows in different apps? As it stands, if one of those apps is hidden I have to first show that app before I activate Expose... in which instance I may as well not use Expose at all.

bonkers · Oct 29, 2003, 01:24 PM

Glad to see I'm not alone...

I'd love it if...
1. Pressing F9 will separate all open windows (even ones minimized in the dock)

ALSO...
2. Pressing F10 will allow you to choose an application specific window but would then auto hide or minimize the other apps' windows.

Thoughts?

Dale Sorel · Oct 29, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by fetopher:
I've never understood why people complain about people who want to have the OPTION to add something. An option means both sides are happy.

Or the software becomes bloated trying to anticipate every possible contingency

aapljack · Oct 29, 2003, 04:38 PM

I seriously doubt that adding the option to include hidden/minimized windows to the 'Show All' function of Expos� will dramatically increase the size of a Panther base install.

-b

barbarian · 05:16 PM

I don't understand why there is so much hostility when someone suggests that an added option would be useful. Options do not necessarily mean bloat, especially when they are potentially major workflow improvements. I admit that the poster saying that this feature would dramatically add to the installed base is a overstating the case. But give the guy a break... he just really wants the feature.

I work around scores of Mac users. Everyone uses OS X differently. Many people like hiding all background apps. Some people do this manually, some do it with ASM, some do it with dragthing. Hiding apps is an OS X feature and ASM dragthing just make it more accessible.

Anyway for virtually all these people adding hidden apps to expose as an option would be a highly desirable feature.

Many of us would also like the option to include windows that have been minimized to the dock to expose.

....
as an aside, expose does not negate the need for ASM hiding or windowshade or minimizing to the dock.. many of us don't like window clutter and want a clean desktop. Expose is the ultimate window switcher... except that the only way to get to those windows is to have a ridiculously jumbled desktop. (not a big deal on a 23 inch monitor, but on an ibook all those windows are a visual mess)

mrtew · Oct 29, 2003, 05:18 PM

I think it would be really cool if the hidden windows were superghostly transparent.... almost invisible. So you really have the feeling they are hidden but you can tell they are there.

Stradlater · Oct 29, 2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by antisonne:
The point of hiding apps is to hide them, I personally would not like to hide something lets say if someone walked in and then switch apps and have that pop up.

THE MAC GOD · Oct 29, 2003, 10:24 PM

Didn't feel like reading the whole thing, but this is was Apple should do. Apple should just do what they always to... Hold down the option button and envoke your F9... bam... easy enough...

F9 - All visible apps
Opt-F9 - Every stinking window you have open whether hidden or not.

macaddled · Oct 29, 2003, 11:53 PM

another vote for this as an option. this has been annoying me (very slightly). expose mapped to the middle mouse button, ah heaven. but I am a habitual hider of applications, so I would love to be able to "expose" all open windows.

Dale Sorel · Oct 30, 2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Jim_MDP:
Hmmm... I thought this was slick so I gave it a go. No joy. Any more details? I've never bother using this before.

Sorry for the late reply...I was chasing a small problem in Mail.app

Anyway, all you need to do is open your System Preferences, click on Keyboard Shortcuts, scroll to the bottom where it says Application Keyboard Shortcuts, click on the little plus (+) button, the window will default to All Applications, type the menu title *exactly* as it reads in the menu i.e. Show All, then enter your keyboard shortcut.

Let me know if this works for you, OK

lookmark · Oct 31, 2003, 11:19 AM

I'm still waiting to see if my (long, long-ingrained) habit of hiding apps is superceding by using Expos�.

So far, I can't help myself from hiding apps -- I've just been doing it for so damn long. It's not even on a conscious level so much any more. It's rare that I'll let windows from multiple apps pile up, unless of course I'm comparing or sharing data between the apps.

I love Expos�, though, so I wish I could use it more.

I'd definitely vote for a "show hidden windows" option.

Just as an aside.. Expos� is simply the cat's meow for window management *within* an app -- dozens of times better than windowshade, MIP, or minimizing to the dock -- e.g. seeing a lot of images within Photoshop. Just beautiful.

rlmorel · Oct 31, 2003, 12:36 PM

Options are always nice to have.

I LOVE EXPOSE! In the short time I have been using it, it has revolutionized the way I use my computer. I no longer waste my brain's cpu cycles thinking about how I have windows positioned on the desktop, and the mouse movements and clicks and drags I do have decreased by at least 50-75%.

Kudos to Apple for this ingenious innovation.

Maybe they will make it even more robust!

CatOne · Oct 31, 2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by dtsblue:
Absolutely not true, hiding an app does not mean you're not using it. I can think of a dozen different reasons why to hide apps (e.g. to avoid distracting screen clutter in graphics work etc). and still require quick access to windows from other apps. I think not including hidden windows into expose (at least as an option) is certainly an interface inconsistency, both practically and conceptually. Anybody who agrees, please send your feedback to apple.

Then click on the icon in the fscking dock, already. With expose you have to click on the window anyway, so what's the beef?