[ls -al]

Microsoft for once seems to have come up with a coherent set of UI criteria for notifications and info display. Of course, much of this is 3 years away, and MS was always good at demoing vaporware.

But there are several good ideas...

These include…

1 Sidebar http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/d...ic_sidebar.asp

Consolidated information display repository. At present the OS X/XP experience is quite modal. Of course, Konfabulator and Hello World and Spring are steps away from the modality. The sidebar is quite limited, but it is a step in managing info display.

2. Notifications for Windows http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/d...pic_alerts.asp

Again, a move away from modality. There are some good ideas there. Apple is moving in this direction with Bezels. You can bet, they will add Bezels upon connecting different digital devices etc....


3 Application archetypes http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/d...archetypes.asp

8 archetypes maybe a little too much but it is definitely better than the Aqua/Brushed metal/Pro Look limitation to 3 archetypes. Apple really needs to start thinking about this.

4. WinFS This has been hashed to death before on this forum. We know the implications. Apple probably has a strategy to do much the same. Let's leave this for another discussion and focus on the first three.
----------

Let's start a brainstorming session (mockups and all) on how OS X 10.6 (2006) can start to address these issues in a better way than what Longhorn will...

Of course, lets impose some constraints

1. Computation constraints: 1 GHz G4, 64 MB VRAM....
2. No blatant rip-offs of Longhorn.


Let the brainstorming begin!

[RooneyX]

As long as the Finder remembers the prefs by then I'll be happy!

[Sosa]

Why wait until OS 10.6? Why not OS 10.4? I'm sure Apple can come up with answers sooner than 3 years.

[ls -al]

Cooperating Systems Kai Gradert's new company has some interesting ideas on information display in a social computing context...

<http://www.cooperatingsystems.com/he...edium/001.html>

[nobitacu]

Apple will have all the answers on 10.4
Windows will always be 3 years behind.

Ming

[Krypton]

After taking away 3rd party docklings, and then menu bar items Apple really needs to bring back an improved version of the control strip.

[Arkham_c]

I like the MS concept of notifications. Windows XP has this already in Windows Messenger, Windows update, etc, and it's kind of neat. OSX could use a similar concept to let people know when software is available for software update, or when a network connection is plugged in or unplugged. Something like how iChat pops up a new chat window would be nice.

The sidebar seems like cruft to me. I don't like it, and I'd prefer that Apple leave it out.

I don't really get the archetypes idea. What does this really buy you over what we have now?

Apple's already moving towards the WinFS features. I suspect that by 10.4 or 10.5 we'll have something comparable or better.

[ls -al]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
I like the MS concept of notifications. Windows XP has this already in Windows Messenger, Windows update, etc, and it's kind of neat. OSX could use a similar concept to let people know when software is available for software update, or when a network connection is plugged in or unplugged. Something like how iChat pops up a new chat window would be nice.

Actually, Bezels for plugging into network, plugging in a device (like an iPod, DigiCam, Scanner, Printer etc) would be nice... unobtrusive and quick visual notification...

Somekind of a Rendezvous notification panel would be great... for notifying when people/devices are in the vicinity ...

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by ls -al:
3 Application archetypes http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/d...archetypes.asp

8 archetypes maybe a little too much but it is definitely better than the Aqua/Brushed metal/Pro Look limitation to 3 archetypes. Apple really needs to start thinking about this.
[/B]

I on the other hand will bich and complain about this many different UIs. YOU DO NOT NEED MORE THAN 1 WELL DESIGNED UI! If it is well thought out everything will go with it (Microsoft has been nortoriously bad at UI consistancy)

[geekwagon]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
I like the MS concept of notifications. Windows XP has this already in Windows Messenger, Windows update, etc, and it's kind of neat. OSX could use a similar concept to let people know when software is available for software update, or when a network connection is plugged in or unplugged. Something like how iChat pops up a new chat window would be nice.

I absolutely hate the way notifications are done in XP. Maybe it is just the quantity, not the quality though. It seems like I can't move my mouse without some stupid little dialog popping up at the bottom right.

I also think the Sidebar is probably going to end up full of adware and crap when you install software. That is going to be the new "branding war" to replace the desktop and systray.

[Phoenix1701]

I was just reading this thread and quietly wondering why Apple hasn't gotten on the notification bandwagon, when all of a sudden I got new email and a little "1" in a red badge appeared on my Mail Dock icon...

Hm. Interesting, that...

I don't think Apple needs a sidebar. They have the Dock instead, and a much better application-to-process mapping (have you ever noticed that on Windows, half of the crap that's popping up windows has no representation in your taskbar at all?). This allows the Dock to function as a taskbar (keeping track of open applications), favorites toolbar (keeping track of frequently used applications), and system tray (displaying notifications in applications which, in Windows, wouldn't appear in the taskbar) all at once, and be less cluttered. And for anything that deals with system preferences or other settings not dependent on a certain application being open, we have menu extras as well.

As for the application archetype question, I couldn't agree more with King Bob. Remember Steve Ballmer standing on stage screaming "Developers, developers, developers"? Well, if I were up on stage with my interface designer hat on, I'd probably be screaming "Consistency, consistency, consistency!" It's absolutely the most important thing. If your UI isn't consistent, nothing the user has learned means anything at all outside of the context in which it was learned; and moreover, the user has to decide what the boundaries of that context are -- after all, all eight of these application archetypes involve menus and buttons in one form or another, so clearly some things are preserved. Having to memorize what can and can't be counted on to remain static between interfaces is a Bad Thing.

Now, about file systems... all I have to say is, c'mon Dominic, don't fail us now!

[Samanoske]

we r doomed - they will take over ...

[lookmark]

(enthusiastic bump)

Great thread. I've reading more about Longhorn, and it's impressive (at least on paper). This will be the OS to beat for Apple. Luckily, they have at least two years to do so. On your mark get set go.

Another thing Longhorn introduces is Aero, their latest attempt at designing an attractive interface. Some things are strange, some elements are pretty cheesy (that Start menu! ugh!) the amount of transparency seems rather over the top at the moment, and it's overcomplicated as it seems any Windows OS will ever be, but they've clearly been inspired by good design (including the best parts of Aqua, of course, no surprise there, and in one fairly conspicuous case Apple hardware itself --the FP iMac).

The idea of making all of the elements of a window partially transparent except for the window contents I find esp. interesting, and quite smart. In the end, it's impossible to tell w/o actually using it, and some of the screenshots at the Aero demo at PDC are just pure fantasy, but Aero's initial look and feel on the whole seems quite "light" and more attractive than I would have expected.

I want to see Apple make it clunky and tiresome in comparison to what they do.

(BTW, I'm not talking about the dreary, dark-gray "Slate" theme included in the latest Longhorn build. You can shots of the actual Aero here and here.)

re ls -al's observations, I quite agree. I also agree that OS X handles notification nicely in the Dock (Mail being the most successful example), which can no doubt be visually enhanced, and codified further.

How OS X can tackle consolidated information display is a tricky one. My initial thought was fold in a new element when they update and enhance the Dock (probably in 10.4): a UI element that could take 3-4 icon widths and display or scroll significant headlines, updates, or newsfeeds. (This would be combined with a way of grouping sets of applications in the Dock that aren't running, to make for more room.) This would *only* work with a horizontally-aligned Dock, though. I have no idea how to integrate such an idea with a vertically-aligned Dock, aside from creating a a whole interface element, like a strip running across the screen for such a thing, which I'm sure, rightly, Apple will refuse to do...

[Catfish_Man]

IMO the biggest threat in Longhorn is the combination of NGSCB or whatever the hell the acronym for what used to be called Palladium is, and XAML. IF both of these catch on, Mac users could find themselves incompatible with pretty much all web content (XAML can be used to describe web apps as well as desktop apps, and a side affect of Palladium as I understand is that content using it probably won't run without it).

[off/lang]

I really dislike XP's notification. I find them quite often useless, and very distracting.

I really like that in OSX I don't have the operating system constantly pushing mostly irrelevant information at me. (I mean, when I'm using an XP laptop and am not connected to the internet, I don't care when it can't find a connection--don't tell me that every 5 minutes.) Honestly, it is really just Clippy with no icon isn't it? I'm a smart person, if I need the information, I'll go and get it.

Whenever I use XP I just feel like it is patronizing me.

[MusicalTone]

I cant see anything in Lonhorn that Apple needs to address in OSX. I find the premise therefore a non starter.

The sidebar is just window dressing, as are notifications. OSX is already perfectly capable of keeping you informed of what is going on with your computer. I think it is just a continuiation of the MS design ethic, which seems to be based on making a computer look like a computer - i.e. have lots of buttons and widgets and things you can select. I mean come on guys, get real. That thing is gonna take up a big chunk of your screen - and to do what exaclty. To give you information you should already be able to access?

Transparency looks nice, but will date pretty quickly. It is already all over the web, and the print publishing world is full of it. What actually is the purpose of it? More window dressing.

Ditto application archetypes.


I like Apple's window dressing just fine.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by MusicalTone:
I cant see anything in Lonhorn that Apple needs to address in OSX. I find the premise therefore a non starter.

The sidebar is just window dressing, as are notifications. OSX is already perfectly capable of keeping you informed of what is going on with your computer. I think it is just a continuiation of the MS design ethic, which seems to be based on making a computer look like a computer - i.e. have lots of buttons and widgets and things you can select. I mean come on guys, get real. That thing is gonna take up a big chunk of your screen - and to do what exaclty. To give you information you should already be able to access?

Transparency looks nice, but will date pretty quickly. It is already all over the web, and the print publishing world is full of it. What actually is the purpose of it? More window dressing.

Ditto application archetypes.


I like Apple's window dressing just fine.

Actually, the archetypes aren't window dressing. They're attempting to create a consistency in similar apps, something that Windows has traditionally lacked. Apple already does this to a certain extent with the AAHIG, the "pro" apps, etc..., but hasn't really codified it like this before, afaik.

[lookmark]

Exactly -- they're far from window dressing. Apple is playing with the idea of application archetypes, that different genres of applications should have distinctive look and feels, but not so far not in a very coherent way. What brushed metal "means" keeps shifting.

Whether these archetypes will actually be followed through may be a different story... AFAICT , they're just guidelines, not templates.

I have mixed feelings on the Sidebar. I think it could be a useful thing, but I also expect it to become clogged up with advertising, branding, and useless junk. I'm always shocked by the amount of advertising creep I see on the desktop and UI of average Windows users, and I don' think the Sidebar will be any exception to that.

But, you know, it's not so interesting to critique Longhorn's solutions in alpha state before we've even tried them. It's more interesting, IMO, to see the problems that Longhorn seeks to address and discuss how OS X can handle them, perhaps more elegantly.

[MusicalTone]

Archetypes look very much like window dressing to me.

The sidebar looks like an OS version of the Windows Office bar - i.e. a way to keep you using MS apps.

And those menu bars just look silly. Noddy would be proud of them.

[DaedalusDX]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
I like the MS concept of notifications. Windows XP has this already in Windows Messenger, Windows update, etc, and it's kind of neat. OSX could use a similar concept to let people know when software is available for software update, or when a network connection is plugged in or unplugged. Something like how iChat pops up a new chat window would be nice.

I absolutely hate that in Windows XP. its just a terrible idea. I equate it to the same type of visual spam that ad software on windows machine do... a pop up window slides out of the task bar telling you to buy something or click here to go somewhere where they can sell you some stuff.

Same type of thing with that windows notification system. It can be done in more elegant ways.

[dharknes]

I have to agree with the others here that have said we only need 1 archetype. The problem, and we're already starting to see it, is that any developer can pick any archetype just to make their app look big, better, or more feature rich then it is. I've never been a fan of the brushed metal and I've never understood why the different UI on Pro apps. I personally don't find the different UIs making a big difference in functionality.

Notifications in XP is a bit annoying. I like the idea but it's distracting. It pulls your attention away from what you're doing. The information should be presented in a less in your face manner. If something is SO important that you need to deal with it right now then put up a window that makes you deal with it right now. I personally love the dock and the way OSX presents information. I will admit I was disappointed with the loss of docklets but is it really that hard to write apps that modify their dock icon.

Sidebar? I don't like the one in panther now so I certainly don't think we need another one.

[clarkgoble]

The pro apps have the UI they have because a pure white or colored background screws up color perception. Thus they want a neutral grey.

What I think Apple needs are some themes with "pro" being one of the themes.

I too tend to dislike the multiple UIs that Apple has. I don't mind the pro look, except that it truly isn't that refined. (i.e. buttons and so forth) But it has the advantage of being fairly functional. Still I think more could be done.

Panther's use of brushed metal actually is growing on me. I think they are using a "document = aqua" vs. "browser = metal" type of taxonomy. If they move towards better consistency in this then I think they'll be onto something.

I truly thought I'd hate the way the Finder handles it, for instance. But it actually works quite well. (Although to be honest I rarely use "classic" Finder windows)

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I have mixed feelings on the Sidebar. I think it could be a useful thing, but I also expect it to become clogged up with advertising, branding, and useless junk. I'm always shocked by the amount of advertising creep I see on the desktop and UI of average Windows users, and I don' think the Sidebar will be any exception to that.

Windows users on other forums are also worried about this happening. Loads of app installers on Windows dump a new folder in the root of the start menu, a shortcut on the desktop, and sometimes a item in the system tray (the right hand end of the XP taskbar) all by default. The sidebar could end up being added to this list, then it would become a huge bloated list full of useless junk on most peoples install. Completely destroying any positive effects of it.

The transparency thing looks 'cool' in a demo (a bit like brushed metal). But I think this was an example of was possible with the 'Avalon' (or whatever the screen compositing engine is called), I don't think it's a GUI proposal, there is plenty time for MS's engineers (surely MS doesn't employ designers to come up with the crap they put out) to come up with a hacked up idea of a look of the OS (the last minute change from Watercolour to Luna in XP was proof enough of that).

[asagoo]

Originally posted by lookmark:
The idea of making all of the elements of a window partially transparent except for the window contents I find esp. interesting, and quite smart. In the end, it's impossible to tell w/o actually using it, and some of the screenshots at the Aero demo at PDC are just pure fantasy, but Aero's initial look and feel on the whole seems quite "light" and more attractive than I would have expected.

I want to see Apple make it clunky and tiresome in comparison to what they do.

(BTW, I'm not talking about the dreary, dark-gray "Slate" theme included in the latest Longhorn build. You can shots of the actual Aero here and here.)

I believe that the transparency of peripheral window areas in Aero is simply not going to work. Sure, it looks nice in demos. But once you have some more windows open (and many people have tens of windows open), you will soon not be able to see anything. Why do you think Apple got rid of the transparent title bars in inactive windows?

I think the only major things Apple needs to work on are extensible file metadata and a rethink of the Dock. Although the Dock really is material for a separate thread.

Amar

[krove]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Panther's use of brushed metal actually is growing on me. I think they are using a "document = aqua" vs. "browser = metal" type of taxonomy. If they move towards better consistency in this then I think they'll be onto something.

I think you may have discovered the proper usage for brushed metal. iPhoto, iTunes, Finder, Safari, Address Book, iCal ... all applications that revolve around a type of browser. Inconsistencies are still abound, though; take iChat for example - what are we browsing? Mail - is it a browser or document-centric application (I'll take the latter, in which case it uses the correct archetype). Quicktime - viewer, but not browser? iSync - utility - not browser or document centric. There are still issues with multiple archetypes simply because some applications cannot be easily placed into distinct categories (browser or document-centric.

After just a week of use of Panther, I find the brushed metal finder nonintrusive.

[the_sisko]

From Apple's User Interface guidelines (http://developer.apple.com/documenta...section_3.html):
Windows have two distinct looks in Mac OS X. There is the standard, default look of windows as shown in the examples so far. There is also a brushed metal look available shown in Figure 13-11. You can use a brushed metal window if your application:

Provides an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals—iPhoto or iSync, for example.

Strives to re-create a familiar physical device—Calculator or DVD Player, for example.

Provides a source list to navigate information—for example, iTunes or the Finder.

Don’t use the brushed metal look indiscriminately. Although it works well for some types of applications, some applications appear too heavy when using this look. For example, it works well for the iSync application window, but it does not work very well for the TextEdit document window.

[the_sisko]

Part of the problem with Windows is that it notifies you about things in an intrusive way, even when you don't want to be notified. A professor of mine uses PowerPoint slides, and every few minutes a notification will pop up in front of the PowerPoint slide saying that he has e-mail, much to his and our annoyance.

The sidebar is one of those elements that is occasionally useful, but it doesn't have a consistent design style and takes up more screen real estate than what it's worth.

In general, Windows keeps looking more and more like a hodgepodge of a bunch of ideas that, when taken alone, might be nice, but when put together looks like a big amalgamation of stuff. The lack of a consistent UI makes Windows much harder to use than what it should be.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
IMO the biggest threat in Longhorn is the combination of NGSCB or whatever the hell the acronym for what used to be called Palladium is, and XAML. IF both of these catch on, Mac users could find themselves incompatible with pretty much all web content (XAML can be used to describe web apps as well as desktop apps, and a side affect of Palladium as I understand is that content using it probably won't run without it).

XAML isn't meant for web sites but for web apps like iTMS and such.

Apple is implementing XUL in Safari (XAML is more or less an XUL rip off), and I think it will take years before XAML and Palladium will have an effect since most Windows users don't upgrade before they buy new machines.