[rogerkylin]

I have been waiting on the sidelines to see how Panther upgrades go. Not suprisingly simple upgrades (not clean installations) seem to be the source of many Panther problems. Furthermore, I think this was also the case for 10.2 and maybe 10.1.

Is apple not spending enough time designing the upgrade process, or is the process so difficult problems are unavoidable?

[JKT]

Originally posted by rogerkylin:
I have been waiting on the sidelines to see how Panther upgrades go. Not suprisingly simple upgrades (not clean installations) seem to be the source of many Panther problems. Furthermore, I think this was also the case for 10.2 and maybe 10.1.

Is apple not spending enough time designing the upgrade process, or is the process so difficult problems are unavoidable?

The majority of problems caused by simple upgrades are due to third party hacks or software, over which Apple has no control. If you are going to do a simple upgrade it is eminently sensible to disable any third party pref panes, menubar additions, haxies etc and you shouldn't have too much trouble. It is also sensible to ensure that all your third party software is (a) compatible with the new OS and (b) up-to-date.

This is by-no-means unique to OS X... OS 7, 8, 9 all suffered the same way with third-party hacks and simple upgrades - problems would often occur due to extension conflicts etc. This is why it always made sense to do a clean install of the system folder in the older OS and why it makes sense to do an archive (or clean) install of OS X now.

[proton]

I performed an upgrade from 10.2.8 (G5) to 10.3 and my machine is still working perfectly. Upgrades are nowhere near as bad as they are made out by many people here.

Make sure that if you've done any dodgy hacks, you undo them before installing any updates, -- this includes updates like 10.3 -> 10.3.1 when it comes.

- proton

[gorickey]

Originally posted by proton:
... 10.3.1 when it comes.

Speaking of, haven't heard anything on this from anywhere (ADC/Rumor Sites/Etc.)....Apple must have a tight ship on the upate...

[mitchell_pgh]

I'm guessing they are going to hold out on 10.3.1 until at least another month or two so they can fix a range of things. I think it's going to be a big one.

90 MB +

[Agent69]

Today's operating systems are both incredibily large and complex. In my personal opinion, upgrades are more trouble then they are worth and I never do anything but clean installs.

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by Agent69:
Today's operating systems are both incredibily large and complex. In my personal opinion, upgrades are more trouble then they are worth and I never do anything but clean installs.

Same here. I always just back up everything to an external drive or cds, then format the drive, adn install the OS fresh. I did try the archive & install option, and it worked fine, but there's always this nice feeling of having a completely new OS installed when done from scratch.

Also doesn't take too long to re-install all the apps, set up the prefs and so on.

[Love Calm Quiet]

Just did *great* Panther install on Pismo 400, 20GB HD. Basic install but without non-english languages. It's my backup machine, so I didn't even *archive* . Seemed like the process took an hour with the slow CPU & slow CDDrive (but I didn't care since I was surfing on my TiBook meanwhile).

Not a hitch! All my prefs, docs, keychain, Apache, MySQL, etc. just like before - but faster.

Now the Pismo is sooooooo much smoother - and I love Panther. Looking forward to a new HD arriving so I can backup my TiBook and get Panther on there.

PS: but there are no haxies on the machine

[typoon]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Same here. I always just back up everything to an external drive or cds, then format the drive, adn install the OS fresh. I did try the archive & install option, and it worked fine, but there's always this nice feeling of having a completely new OS installed when done from scratch.

Also doesn't take too long to re-install all the apps, set up the prefs and so on.

I do the same thing and with Backup I can just restore from CD or another HD and all my existing prefs and settings return without having to re-enter anything.

[Mediaman_12]

I did an regular upgrade install cos I am lazy, and Archive install's usually end up causing anoying problems. The only proble I had was a weard one with Mail no displaying message content (got an e-mail from Apple after posting in on Ars asking to describe the problem, as they couldn't replicate it at Apple). But that was solved by a reinstall of Mail via Pacafist.

[SomeToast]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Also doesn't take too long to re-install all the apps, set up the prefs and so on.

Your definition of "too long" is quite a bit different from mine.

I've done upgrade installs since 10.1 (which came on the machine) without incident.

[kcmac]

I have in the past done archives and simple upgrades and never had problems with either. For me, the archive is more complicated because you have to look at the old folder for things you want to move, decide a good time to throw away that folder, go back into your backup and look at things you need to move into the upgrade that archive does not save, etc.

I believe if you have a reasonably clean system (no haxies or at least turn them off or temporarily remove before upgrade) and back up before upgrading you will have very good results with a simple upgrade. At least, this has worked for me. This is what I did on Panther.

[ryaxnb]

Because iHave tons of different apps, many downloaded from the Internet, 1 or 2 pirated (don't tell anyone!,) and some (such as Office v.X) legit, it would be a big pain to reformat my HD. I do do occasional backups, but it would still take a long time to re-install all my apps.
1. Install OS X v10.3
2. Use Software Restore
3. Re-install Office v.X
4. Install other apps from installers folder on backup (iHave about 30-45 of them or more)
5. Re-type in codes for Bejejeweled, Launchbar, etc.
So I archive and install

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by rogerkylin:
Why are OSX upgrades (not clean install) so difficult

My guess: Mac folks don't like reading directions

[CatOne]

Originally posted by ryaxnb:
Because iHave tons of different apps, many downloaded from the Internet, 1 or 2 pirated (don't tell anyone!,) and some (such as Office v.X) legit, it would be a big pain to reformat my HD. I do do occasional backups, but it would still take a long time to re-install all my apps.
1. Install OS X v10.3
2. Use Software Restore
3. Re-install Office v.X
4. Install other apps from installers folder on backup (iHave about 30-45 of them or more)
5. Re-type in codes for Bejejeweled, Launchbar, etc.
So I archive and install

You're making your life a lot harder than it needs to be. A couple notes to make your life easier:

1) Applications in OS X are for the most part "self contained." Thus, take something like "Office X Folder" and copy it to an external HD. Once you've reinstalled, copy it back to the Application Folder (patched and everything). Voila. Done. This also works for all your other apps.

2) All the codes for your apps are stored as preferences, in your home folder (~Library/Preferences). To make your life easy, back up your ENTIRE home folder (say /Users/ryanxb) to an external HD. Then, when you set up the new computer, after initial login, just blow away the copy of your home folder from the local HD, and copy the one from your external HD back. Log out, log back in, voila. You're all set, and your codes are set. You have to delete your home folder from the terminal -- cd /Users; rm -rf /Users/ryanxb; then copy the external HD copy to the local machine (this can be a bit tricky because the finder can get cranky).

I do this all the time. Easy as pie. A complete reformat/install and all that can be done in 20 minutes or less... a lot faster than an upgrade install!

[Cadaver]

I upgraded (not clean install) my TiBook and G5 to Panther... no problems on either.

G5: Factory 10.2.7 -> 10.2.8 -> 10.3 (upgrade install). No problems at all.

1GHz TiBook: Factory 10.2.something -> 10.2.something_higher -> 10.2.6 -> 10.2.8 (no trouble with first version) -> 10.3 (upgrade install).

Perhaps the problems some are seeing are related to 3rd party hacks or unsupported changes to system files. Things like manually installed BSD/terminal updates, theme installation, 3rd party kernel extensions (kexts).

[Taipan]

Originally posted by CatOne:
1) Applications in OS X are for the most part "self contained." Thus, take something like "Office X Folder" and copy it to an external HD. Once you've reinstalled, copy it back to the Application Folder (patched and everything). Voila. Done. This also works for all your other apps.

Hi!

Unfortunately, it's not always that easy. I'm not using too many apps, and there's already quite a lot of stuff in "Library/Application support".

[Kenneth]

I saw someone grabbed 10.3.1 updater on BT.

[Lizard7]

Yeah, but I think that is the only other directory that you really need to look out for. Adobe apps, in particular, install components into "Library/Application support".

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

Unfortunately, it's not always that easy. I'm not using too many apps, and there's already quite a lot of stuff in "Library/Application support".

[Kenstee]

Originally posted by CatOne:
You're making your life a lot harder than it needs to be. A couple notes to make your life easier:

1) Applications in OS X are for the most part "self contained." Thus, take something like "Office X Folder" and copy it to an external HD. Once you've reinstalled, copy it back to the Application Folder (patched and everything). Voila. Done. This also works for all your other apps.

2) All the codes for your apps are stored as preferences, in your home folder (~Library/Preferences). To make your life easy, back up your ENTIRE home folder (say /Users/ryanxb) to an external HD. Then, when you set up the new computer, after initial login, just blow away the copy of your home folder from the local HD, and copy the one from your external HD back. Log out, log back in, voila. You're all set, and your codes are set. You have to delete your home folder from the terminal -- cd /Users; rm -rf /Users/ryanxb; then copy the external HD copy to the local machine (this can be a bit tricky because the finder can get cranky).

I do this all the time. Easy as pie. A complete reformat/install and all that can be done in 20 minutes or less... a lot faster than an upgrade install!

First off, I do Upgrade Installs NEVER wipe and clean installs. Never had problems.

But, it seems to me that the clean install procedure you described totally defeats the purpose of a clean install if you are reinstalling all the pref files - including potentially corrupted ones. For the life of me I can't figure out why you'd spend the time clean installing then move ALL these files right back. Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it? Am I missing something here?

[legacyb4]

I did an Archive upgrade this morning. 40 minutes and only one broken app (PGP) which was quickly solved by a reinstall.

Everything else was moved over like a dream.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

Unfortunately, it's not always that easy. I'm not using too many apps, and there's already quite a lot of stuff in "Library/Application support".

[Mr. Blur]

i've done upgrades, archive installs etc on my g4 tower and a few powerbooks and ibooks for the last couple years....i have never had any trouble at all. like other(s) have said - it's those "haxies" that do in *most* people along with not following simple instructions.

[stevesnj]

Did an Archive and install...nothing but crashes and freezing...did a zero and install and all is smooth and dandy...I will never A&I again !!!! Apple is lagging in their install reliability with Panther and with the External FW drive problems seems Apple let the cat out of the box too early.

[Freeflyer]

Originally posted by Kenstee:
First off, I do Upgrade Installs NEVER wipe and clean installs. Never had problems.

But, it seems to me that the clean install procedure you described totally defeats the purpose of a clean install if you are reinstalling all the pref files - including potentially corrupted ones. For the life of me I can't figure out why you'd spend the time clean installing then move ALL these files right back. Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it? Am I missing something here?

I'd like to know this. I'll be getting Panther next week, and had planned to do this sort of upgrade. Now I'm wondering again, which would be best.

I'd be grateful for any input that someone might have on the pros and cons of doing this. if you do a full, clean install, shouldn't you do a reinstall of all your software separately to ensure everything is nice and neat?

Thanks,

J.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by CatOne:
You're making your life a lot harder than it needs to be. A couple notes to make your life easier:

1) Applications in OS X are for the most part "self contained." Thus, take something like "Office X Folder" and copy it to an external HD. Once you've reinstalled, copy it back to the Application Folder (patched and everything). Voila. Done. This also works for all your other apps.

2) All the codes for your apps are stored as preferences, in your home folder (~Library/Preferences). To make your life easy, back up your ENTIRE home folder (say /Users/ryanxb) to an external HD. Then, when you set up the new computer, after initial login, just blow away the copy of your home folder from the local HD, and copy the one from your external HD back. Log out, log back in, voila. You're all set, and your codes are set. You have to delete your home folder from the terminal -- cd /Users; rm -rf /Users/ryanxb; then copy the external HD copy to the local machine (this can be a bit tricky because the finder can get cranky).

I do this all the time. Easy as pie. A complete reformat/install and all that can be done in 20 minutes or less... a lot faster than an upgrade install!

What external HD? I don't have one. And iDo an archive and install, not upgrade.

[jasong]

I did an archive and install on my PowerBook G3 (Pismo) and G4 (TiBook). Both were fast and flawless. In fact, I am just now deleting my Previous System Folder.

-- Jason

[Love Calm Quiet]

And I did an UPGRADE on my Pismo(400) and TiBook. And they were flawless. (though hardly 'fast' on the Pismo)

[suthercd]

Before upgrading, turn off all Login items in System Preferences->Login.

Move all Preference Panes out of /Library/PreferencePanes and /Users/shortname/Library/PreferencePanes. Move all items out of /Library/StartupItems. Move all items out of /Library/Application Enhancers and /Users/shortname/Library/Application Enhancers.

The intent is to remove all 3rd party additions. Most if not all of these were never tested against a new release and were never written to be compliant with a System upgrade process. Grabbing some shareware/freeware and installing it does affect performance and stabillity. It's a crap shoot.

Restart to clear all caches. Then insert Install Disc 1 and proceed.

HTH
Craig

[Kenstee]

For a great how-to guide for doing an easy Upgrade Install see:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/We...cj.4@.599bf1e6