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WOPR · Nov 18, 2003, 10:25 AM

A friend has just bought a refurb 1.8 G5 and she says whenever she trys to launch a Classic app it says it's not installed. Surely it should come with Classic pre-installed? If not can she just install it from a standard OS9.2 disk?

sandsl · Nov 18, 2003, 10:28 AM

Classic isn't pre-installed.

WOPR · Nov 18, 2003, 10:32 AM

That's daft! Anyway, do you think a standard OS9.2 disk would work? She's trying to install Toast 5 which is Classic, and then run the updater to 5.2.1 to make it X.

Mediaman_12 · Nov 18, 2003, 10:37 AM

I thought classic didn't work on G5's, or was that OS9 booting?

I also draw your attention to this sticky thread re: your sig. (Just telling you before the mods do)

WOPR · Nov 18, 2003, 10:44 AM

Cheers for that - just sorted it

CharlesS · Nov 18, 2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by sandsl:
Classic isn't pre-installed.

You have got to be kidding me.

So users are expected to buy a copy of OS 9 now?! And they have to know that they need OS 9 (not really intuitive) in the first place?

Or is there an installer for Classic on the Restore CD or something?

Jacke · Nov 18, 2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by CharlesS:

Or is there an installer for Classic on the Restore CD or something?

For my eMac Classic didn't install by default either, I had to choose an additional install from the installation DVD.

CharlesS · Nov 18, 2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Jacke:
For my eMac Classic didn't install by default either, I had to choose an additional install from the installation DVD.

Wow, that's a bad decision.

So new users are going to try to run some piece of software that the box says will run on a Mac. They try to run it, and they can't. And of course, they don't have any idea about what Classic is or what they need to do to install it, or even that they need it. They just see that their Mac can't run the software that claims it runs on a Mac, and they will be pissed off.

Landos Mustache · Nov 18, 2003, 11:47 AM

Would you people relax!

Here is a WILD idea. Look on the DVD's that come with the G5..... what's that.... CLASSIC INSTALL!

The last place anyone would look!

cpac · Nov 18, 2003, 01:31 PM

yep. not a big deal. You can install it if you need it, but most don't - and try explaining to a new user why the have "System" and "System Folder" on their machine, etc.

As most everything runs in X now, it's better to keep Classic as an installable (but not installed) option.

Big Mac · 04:06 PM

No, it really isn't a good idea. I'm sure Apple's going to receive a great many calls about this one, if they haven't begun coming in already. You think an eMac user who wants to run a classic game is going to resort to the install discs and install classic? LOL! All that person knows is that he or she has a game that is labeled for the Mac, yet it can't be played because of something called Classic. Moreover, the fact of the matter is, not too long ago the Apple Store's Kid Sections featured eMacs running OS 9. Yes, not classic, OS 9. It's probably still the case today. The reason why is because so much education software was made for classic, far more than what's being produced for OS X today. And now Apple wants to discourage the use of this software just for kicks? And what about the individual who has just upgraded from an early generation Power Mac to an iMac. This person relies on some classic software and doesn't have the desire to upgrade those programs. Apple should put an artificial barrier up blocking this person's access to crucial software? Come on!

This is a terrifically stupid move on Apple's part. You simply cannot expect a laymen to know or care about classic installation. But those with classic software investments will care when their programs don't run and they blame it on the new hardware. "Oh well, I guess it's time to return the eMac to CompUSA and purchase a Compaq instead." One can't seriously argue a Classic installation is a drain on resources, considering today's huge hard drives and fast processors. The only point to such a policy is that Apple wishes to trick users into thinking their OS 9 software won't work anymore. And this will definitely alienate Mac users more than anything else. Stupid, plain stupid.

CharlesS · Nov 18, 2003, 04:24 PM

^ ^ Exactly. New users don't know what Classic is, or that they need to install it to run their software - they just notice that their software doesn't work, and conclude that the Mac sucks.

If you don't understand this, you don't understand newbies. Hell, I've seen one person who was claiming that she had to switch to a Dell because she uses Word at work, and needs to be able to send the files back and forth between work and home. When I told her that she can just use Office for Mac and it will read the files, because Word for Mac and Windows use the same format, she said, "Look, I have a Mac, and Word files don't work. I have to convert them." My only guess to what the hell she's talking about would be that she had Word 6.0 or some even older version of Word that couldn't read the new Office 97/2000 format, and she was blaming that on the Mac. Non-computer people are like that.

Classic should be installed by default. That's one of the basic tenets about the Mac - it should just work. It shouldn't require you to insert the install CD to get basic functionality or to make half your software library work! Classic should be there by default on all new Macs, and Disk 3 of the OS installer should include a package that installs a minimal OS 9 system. It's not as if Panther's Disk 3 doesn't have the space - it's got 434.2 MB free, for God's sake! Even my rather decked out System Folder would fit on that, and if you stripped an OS 9 system down to the essentials, and then put it into one of the gzip-compressed packages, it would easily fit with lots of room left over.

This is a really, really bad move by Apple.

Originally posted by cpac:
yep. not a big deal. You can install it if you need it, but most don't - and try explaining to a new user why the have "System" and "System Folder" on their machine, etc.

Easily solved - just rename "System Folder" to "Classic Folder". That was one of the nice things about OS 9, remember? It let you rename or even move the System Folder anywhere you wanted. Incidentally, you could even nest the Classic Folder along with the "Applications (Mac OS 9)" folder and other Classic stuff inside a folder called Classic. This folder could also include the Classic Startup application, which could then be made part of the Classic.pkg on Disk 3, allowing those who don't want Classic to leave that component out too in a custom install (saving 25 MB - not too shabby). Everyone wins.

I am mystified as to why Apple doesn't do this.

Art Vandelay · Nov 18, 2003, 04:30 PM

Umm, the 26 1.8GHz G5s we bought for my school all had Classic installed from the factory. Could be an education order thing.

Art Vandelay · Nov 18, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:

Easily solved - just rename "System Folder" to "Classic Folder". That was one of the nice things about OS 9, remember? It let you rename or even move the System Folder anywhere you wanted. Incidentally, you could even nest the Classic Folder along with the "Applications (Mac OS 9)" folder and other Classic stuff inside a folder called Classic. This folder could also include the Classic Startup application, which could then be made part of the Classic.pkg on Disk 3, allowing those who don't want Classic to leave that component out too in a custom install (saving 25 MB - not too shabby). Everyone wins.

I am mystified as to why Apple doesn't do this.

There's even an empty Classic folder in /System/Library/. It's been there from the beginning, but has never been used.

Terri · Nov 18, 2003, 04:40 PM

Actually renaming it did cause some problems with some apps and also caused problems with some installers, but it did seem like you could move it just about anyplace.

I've always wondered what that empty classic folder was there for.

CharlesS · Nov 18, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Terri:
Actually renaming it did cause some problems with some apps and also caused problems with some installers, but it did seem like you could move it just about anyplace.

I've always wondered what that empty classic folder was there for.

Back in the day, we used to have the System Folder renamed to "1. System Folder" on the family machine to make it show up at the top of list views, in order to make it more convenient to add extensions, etc. I can't remember a single problem. I'm running right now with my OS 9 System Folder put inside a folder named "Classic" on one of my machines, and it works fine.

Any app that had issues with a renamed or moved System Folder would have been very poorly designed, as it would have been using a hard-coded path instead of the standard API's provided by Apple to get to the Preferences folder, etc.

Landos Mustache · Nov 18, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Big Mac:
No, it really isn't a good idea. I'm sure Apple's going to receive a great many calls about this one, if they haven't begun coming in already.

So what do you care? you work for Apple support or something.

News for ya. 10.3 doesn't come with classic either

Big Mac · Nov 19, 2003, 04:10 AM

It would be nice, Severed, if I were taking Apple's Support calls, but I'm not. It's the user I'm concerned about, though, and the user's perception of new Macs.

If you don't want to believe me, at least take the word of a Mac genius like CharlesS. There's something amiss with this policy. If you can't understand why this will be problematic for novices, then you've really lost touch with the common person. The world isn't populated by computer geeks - we're a minority. And, as was already stated, this will be particularly problematic for many who simply expect the Mac to just work. There remains the widespread notion that Macs are easier to use, but such beliefs will disappear if Apple insists on making these types of decisions. Oh, cpac, you said it's difficult for a user to figure out why there are two System folders. If you think that's a good reason to get rid of Classic, try explaining to a user why his or her software won't run.

blackbird_1.0 · Nov 19, 2003, 04:53 AM

classic came installed on my G5

proton · Nov 19, 2003, 07:26 AM

Classic is installed by G5s upon first boot when Software Restore is launched. If you don't have it installed then you've most likely formatted your machine since then, and you'll need to run Software Restore (from /Applications/Utilities) to install Classic (and iDVD and other bundled software with the G5).

- proton

absmiths · Nov 19, 2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
You have got to be kidding me.

So users are expected to buy a copy of OS 9 now?! And they have to know that they need OS 9 (not really intuitive) in the first place?

As I recall, Microsoft didn't ship any copies of Windows 98 with Windows 2000. People need to give Apple more credit - they have dragged OS 9 along for a long time just because stupid software companies (Adobe/Quark) were incompetent about updating their software. This is bound to end sometime, and people will complain about their "right" to boot into OS 9 or run Classic.

Sven G · Nov 19, 2003, 10:12 AM

The point, however, is that Classic is an integral part of OS X, and so, with no more booting into Mac OS 9, the same Mac OS 9 should now be considered an integral part of Classic, and thus of OS X: in a few words, as has been said above, a working Classic + basic Mac OS 9 System Folder should be available as a (meta)package installer on the OS X CDs, as long as there exists a considerable amount of Classic-only software, games and multimedia CDs out there - which will still be for quite some years, probably...

WOPR · Nov 19, 2003, 10:17 AM

I think it should be on there by default. There's no excuse - it's not as if disk space is a problem any more.

CharlesS · Nov 19, 2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by absmiths:
As I recall, Microsoft didn't ship any copies of Windows 98 with Windows 2000. People need to give Apple more credit - they have dragged OS 9 along for a long time just because stupid software companies (Adobe/Quark) were incompetent about updating their software. This is bound to end sometime, and people will complain about their "right" to boot into OS 9 or run Classic.

Windows 98 was not required to run old apps in Windows 2000 or XP. Totally different ballgame.

This is akin to if Windows XP had made all software for Windows 9x suddenly not work unless you installed something you didn't know you needed from the install CD's.

OptimusG4 · Nov 19, 2003, 10:43 AM

Considering the original question was pertaining to a refurbished G5, maybe classic wasn't added by the vendor (if it was a 3rd party vendor).

- - e r i k - - · Nov 19, 2003, 10:49 AM

I'm torn on this issue, but I'm leaning towards the fact that classic isn't needed anymore. I use it at work for Outlook 2001, but that is a speciality case. And so is running classic games. Classic support is like X11 support these days, install it if you need it. Most people don't.

Rychiar · Nov 20, 2003, 01:34 PM

nothing could ever make me touch classic again, get over it, u want osx buy (or aquire) ther new software for it and deal

Rychiar · Nov 20, 2003, 02:26 PM

nothing could ever make me touch classic again, get over it, u want osx buy (or aquire) ther new software for it and deal

barbarian · 02:48 PM

nothing could ever make me touch classic again, get over it, u want osx buy (or aquire) ther new software for it and deal

Fine for you, but what if you a small business that has invested tens of thousands of dollars in classic apps. Or a school. Or even someone who runs a home office where the cost of upgrading all your apps would be in the thousands of dollars.

As someone who deals with new users and non-technical all the time, I think it's a mistake to hide classic on the DVD and to not to include classic pre-installed especially with the size of today's hard disks. There are still plenty of people with legacy apps or apps that they have not upgraded to their OS X versions. Apple is unnecessarily causing confusion and frustration with those people.

Having it on the DVD is great but it doesn't help out people like my neighbor, who went through hours of frustration trying to get his copy of Office 98 to work on his new G5. The truth is the majority of current Mac users still use OS 9. They know OS X exists but they don't understand that they will need new versions of apps that work natively. They also don't know the first thing about classic. People are often scared to upgrade a system that basically works for fear of running into "computer problems" this is exactly the kind of thing Apple could avoid by having classic pre-installed.

At the very least Apple should provide a simple set of switcher 'How Tos' with new machines... One of them should be : How to move your files from your old OS 9 machine to your new OS X machine.

As an aside, I think Apple should offer a windowed- virtualPC-like classic mode. Rootless classic is more confusing to some users using certain combinations of apps.

chabig · Nov 20, 2003, 02:45 PM

They know OS X exists but they don't understand that they will need new versions of apps that work natively.

I don't think users are that naive.

Art Vandelay · Nov 20, 2003, 03:19 PM

I have a friend that just got a new G5. It had Classic preinstalled. The original poster of the thread got a refurbished G5 from someone. For whatever reason, it didn't have Classic installed. Every G5 that has shipped from Apple that I've seen has Classic installed. This thread seems to be moot. Not much point arguing about Apple not installing Classic on G5s when they do.

barbarian · Nov 20, 2003, 04:06 PM

>I don't think users are that naive.

You haven't spent enough time around "average" users. This is part of my job. There is a big world of informed Mac users. There is a much bigger world of people who don't know the first thing about computers and use their machines in the pre-configured defaults. Believe me, they have no idea what classic is.

cpac · Nov 20, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
Not much point arguing about Apple not installing Classic on G5s when they do.

here here!

WOPR · Nov 20, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
I have a friend that just got a new G5. It had Classic preinstalled. The original poster of the thread got a refurbished G5 from someone. For whatever reason, it didn't have Classic installed. Every G5 that has shipped from Apple that I've seen has Classic installed. This thread seems to be moot. Not much point arguing about Apple not installing Classic on G5s when they do.

I kind of wished I hadn't asked now! I'll just tell her to install it - she is a bit of a novice though.

CharlesS · Nov 20, 2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
I have a friend that just got a new G5. It had Classic preinstalled. The original poster of the thread got a refurbished G5 from someone. For whatever reason, it didn't have Classic installed. Every G5 that has shipped from Apple that I've seen has Classic installed. This thread seems to be moot. Not much point arguing about Apple not installing Classic on G5s when they do.

As long as it is installed on new machines, that's fine. I do wish, however, that people would stop clamoring for Apple to get rid of Classic. What's it to you? If you don't want it, just do a custom install with the configuration you want. But for new users, things should just work out of the box.

WOPR · Nov 20, 2003, 05:44 PM

Exactly. It takes up little space on the HDD so there's no excuse.