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neilw · Dec 3, 2003, 11:03 AM

Having just ranted in another thread about how I want apps to stay open after I close their last window, I will now raise a problem with that very behavior that has afflicted the Mac for a long time.

When you close the last window of an app that stays open, you are left with the menu bar of that app, while staring at the windows of another app. You must click in another window to make that app active.

Why is this a problem?

1) I have seen inexperienced Mac users get confused by this repeatedly. They don't realize that the menus they see don't correspond to the windows they're looking at.

2) I myself, a longtime Mac user, get snagged by this (if only momentarily) all the time. The most common scenario is after reading mail, I close the Mail viewing window. I then have Safari windows staring at me. Possibly I pause for a moment for whatever reason, then my attention goes back to the screen. I think Safari is active, so hit cmd-T to open a new tab, and the font panel for Mail opens. I know how to fix this and get back to what I really want to do, but it's annoying. You could argue that it's my problem because I'm stupid, but I think it's a fundamental problem with the GUI.

This problem is exacerbated by the fact that the visual cues for which app is active are fairly weak, especially for metal apps like Safari. I've got a screen full of stuff, so it's not obvious at a glance that (a) the Safari window's stoplights are greyed out, so it's not active (discussed to death in another thread), or (b) the name of the active app in the menu bar is wrong, since it looks just like another menu name and blends into the background unless you give it conscious attention.

So my question is, is there a better way for OSX to handle this situation, like something special it could do when you close the last app of the active application? I haven't come up with anything good other than to strengthen the cues for when a window is active or inactive, but there's got to be something more that can be done. Or am I the only one who's ever been bothered by this?

msuper69 · Dec 3, 2003, 11:08 AM

I think there are more important things to get one's panties in a bunch about. I agree that consistency would be nice but I just adjust my life to this minor (IMHO) bugaboo and move on to more important matters (after sending feedback, of course).

neilw · Dec 3, 2003, 11:25 AM

Don't worry, it doesn't keep me up at nights.

Just an aspect of the Mac GUI that I've always thought could use some improvement.

Developer · Dec 3, 2003, 11:28 AM

Apple knows about the problem that active/inactive Brushed Metal windows are hard to distinguish. They made this mockup:

neilw · Dec 3, 2003, 01:25 PM

The window in back of that picture is an Aqua window, which kind of leaves open the question of whether Apple views the brushed metal situation as a problem.

That's only part of the issue I'm discussing here, though, which is quick recognition of the active application in this particular situation.

Jim_MDP · Dec 3, 2003, 09:08 PM

Neil, it's not your intelligence, so excuse me while I say� STOP your whining ya stupid BITCH!

Ok, sorry�

So many of these niggling little complaints come up, it drives me nuts to see them. You admitted it shouldn't take but a time or three until a new user has adapted to the new UI.

But more important� why close the Mail window at all? EVER? If you are going to another app, just cmd-H hide Mail and move on. Either way, when you want Mail again, you need to use either the dock or cmd-tab switching. Why would I want it brought to the fore without an open window?

I'm just venting but jeez� we don't complain to Chevy that their wiper switch on the turn signal arm doesn't work just the same as the one in our Ford. We just use each as designed and get on with bidness.

Yes, I've had Macs since March '84, but I still see what I consider far too much of this "Oh, it's different than I'm used yo, what ever will I do?"

Rant over, nothing more to see here� move along.

Dale Sorel · Dec 3, 2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
Apple knows about the problem that active/inactive Brushed Metal windows are hard to distinguish. They made this mockup:

Are you telling me that you can't tell which window is active?

madmacgames · Dec 3, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
Are you telling me that you can't tell which window is active?

uhhh too bad it doesn't work anything like that mockup says it does... if you de-activate a brushed metal window, it does not turn "greyed" out... it stays brushed metal.. only the 3 top left buttons grey out.

*edit* correction: the scroll bar and title text also grey out and the drop shadow becomes less prominent.

madmacgames · Dec 3, 2003, 11:27 PM

I have to say I agree with neil here on the closing the last window and active application not switching for 2 reasons:

1. I find it annoying most of the time

2. If you hide an applications windows, the active application changes to the "next in line" you could say... so, why does it not do the same if I close all the windows?

neilw · Dec 4, 2003, 12:50 AM

Jim_MDP writes:

But more important� why close the Mail window at all? EVER?

Call me crazy, but as far as I can tell it has a little red button on it that is designed to do exactly that. Besides, that's only one obvious example that popped to mind.

'm just venting but jeez� we don't complain to Chevy that their wiper switch on the turn signal arm doesn't work just the same as the one in our Ford. We just use each as designed and get on with bidness.

I'm sorry, I must have missed where I compared the Mac to any other system. I have described what I perceive to be a flaw in the Mac user interface for the reasons described above.

Discussion of the Mac user interface (even down to a nit-picky level) is fair game around here. If such threads bother you, feel free not to participate. I'm not threatening to buy a Dell or anything.

Madmacgames writes:

2. If you hide an applications windows, the active application changes to the "next in line" you could say... so, why does it not do the same if I close all the windows?

The problem is, when you hide an app, you're explicitly telling the system you're done with it for now, so it's safe to switch apps at that point. You might, on the other hand, legitimately want to close the last window but then open a new one, like in an Office app or something. Auto-switching after the last window is closed would be likely to cause more trouble than it saves, unless it could be done extremely cleverly.

voodoo · Dec 4, 2003, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Developer:
Apple knows about the problem that active/inactive Brushed Metal windows are hard to distinguish. They made this mockup:

The window in back of that picture is an Aqua window, which kind of leaves open the question of whether Apple views the brushed metal situation as a problem.

Indeed.

Jim_MDP · Dec 4, 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by neilw:

I'm sorry, I must have missed where I compared the Mac to any other system. I have described what I perceive to be a flaw in the Mac user interface for the reasons described above.

Sorry, my bad. I've read far too much 'switcher bitching' lately and made the connection in my mind. Like the first time they used Windows, it was all so obvious. Not likely.

But I stand by the rest of my post. Perhaps you would like to pick another example besides Mail? If you close it's window then open a new one� what's changed?