[m a d r a]

post them here:

the thing that irritates the f**k out of me every time is when you try to restart [with fast user switching enabled] panther says "blah.. blah... there are other people using this comp. confirm you want to log them out and restart.." and pops up a pasword box. you type in your admin password and hit 'return' and.... doh!... back to where you started, coz the password dialogue had 'cancel' enabled as the default button rather than 'restart'.

why?! if i've read the dialogue and then gone to all the trouble of typing in my admin password, it's pretty obvious i want to 'go through with the restart thing and haven't clicked on sommit by accident. so WTF make 'cancel' the default?!

i don't know about the rest of you, but i'm so accustomed to just hitting 'return' that this one catches me out all the feckin time. sometimes i've tried to restart three or four times in a row before i've managed to conquer the instinct to hit 'return' after typing in a dialogue box and done the mouse manouevre up to hit 'restart' instead.

[yet another example of GUI guideline adherence from the company that brought you "icons as moving targets"*]


*see madra rants passim.

[alphasubzero949]

Agreed. I have to keep remembering that I have to physically move the pointer and click over Restart.

Another annoyance is the removal of the Favorites submenu in the "Go" menu. I had created "quick link" aliases in there. Now I have to open a new Finder window and click on Favorites.

[mattyd]

i'm annoyed that you can't use the trackpad to click at the log in screen. in jag you could.

[mikemako]

well.. previously I could not middle click on links if Fast User Switching was enabled and there was another user logged in (note for those who do not have a mouse with a scroll wheel: you can push in the scroll wheel while over a link in Safari and it will open it in a new tab). Today, Kensington updated their Mouseworks driver which resolved that problem.

I cannot have Show Item Info enabled for items on the Desktop if I want to be able to move them around in quantities (5 or more items). It will crash the Finder every time.

hmmm.. I will update when I think of more.

[Love Calm Quiet]

I'd call those BUGS not annoyances. Hope you filed with Apple!

[mikemako]

Originally posted by Love Calm Quiet:
I'd call those BUGS not annoyances. Hope you filed with Apple!

good point.

and I definitely have filed em.

[m a d r a]

here's another wan...

you mount a disc image on the desktop which contains multiple items. [say an app, the manual PDF and a plug-ins folder]. you want to drag everything to your applications folder but naturally keep them altogether in one folder. the most obvious thing to do is drag the icon of the mounted disc image from the side bar to the applications folder [also on the sidebar]. this should copy the mounted disc image and contents as a folder to your apps folder, shouldn't it? so does it? - does it f**k! all you succeed in doing is removing the mounted disc image from the sidebar. so now you've got to hunt it down on the desktop and then copy the fecker to the applications folder by option-dragging.

even if you manage to resist the urge to try the abovementioned seemingly obvious [to me anyway!] drag and drop manouevre in the sidebar, you've still got to navigate to your apps folder first to make an enclosing folder for the various items on the disc image, before you can copy them across.

annoys the f**k out of me every time i mount a disc image and see that the items inside are not already in an enclosing folder!

[JLL]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
here's another wan...

you mount a disc image on the desktop which contains multiple items. [say an app, the manual PDF and a plug-ins folder]. you want to drag everything to your applications folder but naturally keep them altogether in one folder. the most obvious thing to do is drag the icon of the mounted disc image from the side bar to the applications folder [also on the sidebar]. this should copy the mounted disc image and contents as a folder to your apps folder, shouldn't it? so does it? - does it f**k! all you succeed in doing is removing the mounted disc image from the sidebar. so now you've got to hunt it down on the desktop and then copy the fecker to the applications folder by option-dragging.

even if you manage to resist the urge to try the abovementioned seemingly obvious [to me anyway!] drag and drop manouevre in the sidebar, you've still got to navigate to your apps folder first to make an enclosing folder for the various items on the disc image, before you can copy them across.

annoys the f**k out of me every time i mount a disc image and see that the items inside are not already in an enclosing folder!

Click on the image making the contents show in the window.

Option drag the proxy icon to the Applications folder and it will do what you want.

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by JLL:
....Option drag the proxy icon to the Applications folder and it will do what you want...

i dunno what you mean by "proxy image" but if you mean the mounted disc image in the sidebar then option dragging makes no difference. it just removes it from the sidebar.

however: i have just realised that selecting the disc image in the sidebar, copying and then selecting the apps folder in the sidebar and pasting does copy the disc image as a folder to the applications folder.

[i just can't get used to this windoze style using copy/paste to copy discs/folders/files etc. as well as document content.]

[chris v]

I have fallen victim repeatedly to the "cancel as default" bug in the shutdown dialog.

The other annoyance right now is that the Finder thinks all my firewire drives are CD/DVDs. If I click on the CDs, DVDs and iPods button under "Show These Items on Desktop:" it puts the firewire volumes on the desktop as well.

Sure, they're ejectable so to speak, but I've got Hard Drives un-checked for a reason.

Also, at home (but not at work) I've got to quit then re-launch the finder for it to mount my iPod after I plug it in. It shows as mounted in Disk Utility, but the finder doesn't see it.

Edit: train of thought

CV

[chris v]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
here's another wan...


annoys the f**k out of me every time i mount a disc image and see that the items inside are not already in an enclosing folder!

Fruit Menu (unsanity.com) has a handy contextual menu item you can add called "gather items in new folder" that will appear when you have multiple items selected in the finder. It's still in beta for Panther, but seems to be working okay to me.

CV

[JLL]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
i dunno what you mean by "proxy image"

The proxy image is the small image at the top center of a window next to the name.

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by chris v:
I have fallen victim repeatedly to the "cancel as default" bug in the shutdown dialog.
CV

The default option should always be the least destructive, so this is not a bug.

Jeez - is it time of the month for you guys or something ?

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
The default option should always be the least destructive, so this is not a bug.

Jeez - is it time of the month for you guys or something ?

which bit of the following didn't you understand?....

.... if i've read the dialogue and then gone to all the trouble of typing in my admin password, it's pretty obvious i want to 'go through with the restart thing and haven't clicked on sommit by accident. so WTF make 'cancel' the default?!

[chris v]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
The default option should always be the least destructive, so this is not a bug.

Jeez - is it time of the month for you guys or something ?

I'm sure it wouldn't take much work to change the default from "cancel" to shut down" after the admin name and password fields had text entered into them.

Ease of use and all that. Isn't that why we buy Macs?

CV

[Moonray]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
The default option should always be the least destructive, so this is not a bug.

Jeez - is it time of the month for you guys or something ?

Apple says "The default button should be the button that represents the action that the user is most likely to perform if that action isn’t potentially dangerous."

I think the most likely is always to acknowledge what you chose to do just before. The question is what is considered dangerous.

-

[tr]

i'd like Favorties back in the Go menu...unless someone has found out how to do that, if so, please tell me.

tr

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Moonray:
Apple says "The default button should be the button that represents the action that the user is most likely to perform if that action isn’t potentially dangerous."

I think the most likely is always to acknowledge what you chose to do just before. The question is what is considered dangerous.

-

and which bit of the following didn't *you* understand?....

.... if i've read the dialogue and then gone to all the trouble of typing in my admin password, it's pretty obvious i want to 'go through with the restart thing and haven't clicked on sommit by ay accident. so WTF make 'cancel' the default?!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
and which bit of the following didn't *you* understand?....

Honey, if you're talking about casual computer users, then force-logging all other accounts out and quitting their processes IS a DANGEROUS OPERATION.

Dammit, madra.

And switching the default button once you've entered information, as someone else suggested, is NOT an option. Can't have "Return" do something entirely opposite within the same window from one second to the next.

-s*

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

......Dammit, madra.

And switching the default button once you've entered information, as someone else suggested, is NOT an option. Can't have "Return" do something entirely opposite within the same window from one second to the next.....

not exactly on the ball today, are we spheric?

if the default button was 'restart' and you hit return by accident as the dialogue popped up, then it wouldn't matter as until you've typed in an admin name and password it won't let you restart the comp anyway. so you'd just get a password error.

trust me on this one. i'm right [as usual!]

[chris v]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:


And switching the default button once you've entered information, as someone else suggested, is NOT an option. Can't have "Return" do something entirely opposite within the same window from one second to the next.

-s*

?? I've seen plenty of apps where the Okay button is greyed out until text is entered in a field.

CV

[m a d r a]

and here's another one:

the 'recent places' pop-up that appears in open/save dialogues. am i the only one in the world who disnae understand what exactly is going on here?

sometimes the 'recent places' seem to be the last X places i've visited on the comp.... sometimes the last X places i've visited while using the current app... sometimes the last X places i've opened from/saved to [as appropriate]... and sometimes it just seems to be a random list of folders i used in a previous lifetime and none of the places i've visited recently [in any app] seem to be listed.

as a seasoned mac user, i feel like i've just made a cathartic confession here. and you know what, i feel better already!



is anyone else prepared to come out of the closet and admit to being baffled by 'recent places' or must i suffer the shame alone?

[Moonray]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
and which bit of the following didn't *you* understand?....

Well, obviously you did not get that I was not offering a hack for your system but an explanation why things are like they are. Apple considers logging other users out dangerous so the default is 'Cancel' whether your intention is clear or not.
If I understand you right you were not asking for solutions for your problem but just naming an annoyance.



(And I beat you by one rolleye)

-

[chris v]

Originally posted by m a d r a:



is anyone else prepared to come out of the closet and admit to being baffled by 'recent places' or must i suffer the shame alone?

Well, I for one, got a belly laugh outta your list o' places. I actually have as yet to use that feature once. I'll be sure to try it now that I see it can lead to comedy gold.

CV

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by chris v:
I have fallen victim repeatedly to the "cancel as default" bug in the shutdown dialog.

Its not a Bug, this is just following Apple's interface guidelines.

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Moonray:
....... Apple considers logging other users out dangerous so the default is 'Cancel' whether your intention is clear or not......

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
......this is just following Apple's interface guidelines........

OK. let's take this v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y and see if we get it this time.

[oh. and before we start, can we take it as read that the default action should be the the least harmful when a dialogue pops up? - that's obvious]

now. i want to restart my computer, while [thanx to the miracle of 'fast user switching'] another user is also logged in...


i select 'restart' and the following dialogue pops up....



now luckily for me apple in their infinite wisdom [praise be their name. damnation upon the unbelievers!] has seen fit to make 'cancel' the default button rather than 'restart'. i mean imagine the chaos that might have ensued had 'restart' been the default button!!! why. that dialogue might have popped up and i might have instinctively hit the return button on my keyboard! in which case....



oh dear! that was a bit anti-climactic and non-potentially-dangerous wasn't it?

you see i have to typetty-typetty-tap in my admin user name.... then i have to typetty-typetty-tap in my admin password before the dialogue will actually do anything.

i thought that by doing all that typetty-typetty-tapping in of passwords, i was kind of... sort of... vaguely... indicating that i was almost... well... pretty much decided... that i did actually want to go ahead with restarting my computer and should then be able to hit the 'return' button to do this.

but as so many of you have pointed out, i'm being extremely stupid here. apple is protecting me from myself. what if the dialogue popped up and i instinctively typed in my admin name then tabbed to the password field and accidentally typed in my admin password and then hit instinctively hit 'return'. blimey! i might accidentally restart my comp!!!

much safer [and more sensible] to avoid this potential disaster by making me do all the typetty-typetty-tapping stuff and then having to move the pointer and physically click on the 'restart' button.

and you know what? now i come to think of it, i'm not even sure this provides enough safeguards. maybe before you're allowed to shut down your computer, there should be a 'cooling off' period? perhaps the restart button should be greyed out for a couple of hours to give you time to consider the consequences of your actions? maybe apple, in their lofty position as masters of GUI principles, should incorporate that other brainwave that they brought us with finder column view [ie. icons as moving targets] and cause the restart button to run about the screen, fleeing from the pointer?... so that anyone who *really* *really* did want to restart their comp had to prove their determination by running the bugger to ground.

[there isn't a smiley who's eyes roll enough!]

[Moonray]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
[oh. and before we start, can we take it as read that the default action should be the the least harmful when a dialogue pops up? - that's obvious]

No, we can't. Maybe did not read carefully:

The default button should be the button that represents the action that the user is most likely to perform if that action isn’t potentially dangerous.

So first it's supposed to be what you might want to do, and then only if it is not dangerous.

A potential data loss it is considered dangerous even if you type in a dozen passwords first.
Imagine an application which has the only purpose to format your hard drive. It comes with big alert boxes and warning messages and a voice telling you it's your own responsibility to proceed. It lets you not only input your password but also your birthdate and showsize just to make sure you really want it. And wonder what? According to the above guideline and considering that formatting a drive will erase data the final box popping up will still have "Cancel" as default. Duh.

So much for the facts. And yes, you don't like them.

[I'd need a really big one here now]

-

[redJag]

No, cancel should definitely not be the default. You have to go to the Apple menu, click on Restart, tell the computer you're sure you want to Restart, type in your Admin name, type in your Password, and THEN press return to successfully restart with other users logged in. And even once you get to the "Enter Admin Password" screen, if you accidentally press return, it will just tell you to enter an Admin name and password.

[Moonray]

Originally posted by redJag:
No, cancel should definitely not be the default...

You too might not understand that Apple following their own guidelines has to make 'Cancel' the default.

-

[GORDYmac]

I can't believe this is all we can come up with. That is so NOT a big deal.

Another one for the 'not a big deal' pile: On my 933 Quicksilver, the rotating effect is only used about 70% of the time. The rest of the time the OS just blacks out one user's desktop and pops up the new user. Why is that? It has a NVidia Gforce 4MX (?) card in it, 1.25 GB RAM. I can understand the iBook 500 and iMac 400, but not this workhorse. Is there any documentation on this feature?

[Nyuni]

Gordy -

I have a QS867 with a GeForce 3, and the rotating screen effect always manages to occur, it's odd that it would only occur in an unreliable fashion for you. I have noticed, however, that if the system has a bit of a CPU load, the animation can sometimes be jerky (and I mean.. -really- jerky, like you miss most of the frames.) Perhaps this might be what's occuring? You just miss the whole animation? If you're switching under modest or no CPU load, then that throws my theory out the window.

And as for Madra.. you need a big helping of Apple Human Interface Guidelines, buddy. Mooonray described it best in quite clear terms, but I reccomend you pick up the real deal and give it a readthrough. There's a very real logic to what you consider madness. It's too bad that Apple has started violating their own rules in several different ways in places, but that's another story...

[weezie]

Originally posted by Moonray:
You too might not understand that Apple following their own guidelines has to make 'Cancel' the default.

-

It's called a "guideline" for a reason. It's not a law. It's not a sin to design something that doesn't follow the "guidelines" if the rationale for breaking it is well thought out. I for one agree with the original poster that the rationale for breaking this one is more than well thought out.

Blindly following "guidelines" can lead to a worse UI than always breaking them.

[chromos]

Originally posted by weezie:
It's called a "guideline" for a reason. It's not a law. It's not a sin to design something that doesn't follow the "guidelines" if the rationale for breaking it is well thought out. I for one agree with the original poster that the rationale for breaking this one is more than well thought out.

Blindly following "guidelines" can lead to a worse UI than always breaking them.

I agree with Madra and weezie as well. The simple fact that this UI trips up people (whatever the percentage may be) suggests that there's a Mac memory effect, or an expectation of behavior, that people have developed from using the Mac interface for a number of years. Consistency is one of the hallmarks of the Mac experience; that's all we're asking for.

[eklipse]

Perhaps Apple should remove the default button from the restart panel altogether. That way you don't accidentally restart or dismiss the password box with a careless keystroke. You are forced into clicking the button you want.

If it really bugs you that much you can always edit the .nib file in Interface Builder to change or remove the default button - I love Cocoa.

(The file you need to edit is /System/Library/CoreServices/SecurityAgentPlugins/RestartAuthorization.bundle/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/ChangeRunState.nib)

[GORDYmac]

Another one for "the not a big deal" pile:

If you enable the ScreenSaver password in the Security PrefPane...and then select 'Switch User' in the ScreenSaver password dialog...then select the current user's account in the login box...and then type in the current user's password...you are returned to the screen saver password dialog. You have to enter your password again to return to your desktop.

[clarkgoble]

First off let me preface my comments by saying how much I love Panther and that I think the Finder is my favorite feature. That said...

I really dislike how when doing the "drag over" for the sidebar that the display isn't in column view. Rather it is frequently in icon view with not all the icons displayed (no scrollbars). This makes the draging down through folders difficult if not impossible. Hopefully this bug gets fixed soon. Indeed I'd much prefer it if the "mode" of the Finder browser stayed the same and only changed when you change it. Right now that isn't the case.

Minor problems I've mentioned here before are the improper selection colors in the Finder.

[alpha rays max]

I REALLY dislike the inability to tab through buttons. I don't necessarily want to have to go to my mouse when my hands are both on the keyboard just to tab over to a button that's not default. I can't for the life of me understand why this still hasn't been implemented? Are there any hacks out there for this?

[chromos]

Originally posted by alpha rays max:
I REALLY dislike the inability to tab through buttons. I don't necessarily want to have to go to my mouse when my hands are both on the keyboard just to tab over to a button that's not default. I can't for the life of me understand why this still hasn't been implemented? Are there any hacks out there for this?

Umm, just turn on Full Keyboard Access in the Keyboard & Mouse pref pane. That does it for me. Also, keep in mind that the developer has to have enabled tabbing through items in the interface.

[m a d r a]

another wan...

if you're burning a CD with disc utility and need to create a '.dmg' to burn form a folder or volume, disc utility always offers to save the disc image inside the folder or volume you are trying to create the '.dmg' file from in the first place.

not only is this impossible. it is also extremely irritating when you have to navigate up one level each time you create a disc image, so you do not attempt to save it 'inside itself'. what bright spark at apple let this one through quality control?

[alpha rays max]

Full Keyboard Access is checked in my pref pane -- I assume that means it's on? Because tabbing/arrowing between buttons doesn't doesn't work in any application, even the normal OS X system dialogues, for me.

Originally posted by chromos:
Umm, just turn on Full Keyboard Access in the Keyboard & Mouse pref pane. That does it for me. Also, keep in mind that the developer has to have enabled tabbing through items in the interface.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

Panther is my first Mac OS that I have owned (have used others in the past, but briefly due to a dislike of them).

Since I hated it so much in the past, I have been careful to try to make sure my complaints aren't leftovers of my anti-mac in me


My biggest annoyances that I have in my daily use are:

1) The hard drive icon on my desktop dances around the screen. I move it up to the top right, and then later in the day I notice that it is elsewhere on the desktop. I have never touched it and have many windows up so it is hard to say when it actually moves. I rarely use said icon, so it is a minor thing I guess - but the fact that the icons move like that is a bit strange to me.

2) Safari. I have a love/hate relationship with that bit. I think the Google toolbar functionality is severely lacking (compared to the real Google toolbar), but I would give that whole thing up just to not have Safari crash in a day.
The one good side of Safari crashing all of the time is that I get a chance in my day to write something creative in the "send a message into the void" dialog box that comes up.
At least I am to the point now where I assume that anything I am doing will be lost at any second, so I keep some text program at all times to keep track of what is on screen so that if all is lost, I can get back to it quickly (I use many web apps, including ETrade, which I would say is very important since they involve rather a lot of money on the line and time is key).
That said, Safari is far better than any of the other browsers on Mac.
(I know that someone will chime in and say that Safari isn't part of the Panther - but I don't recall it being there prior to Panther, perhaps I'm wrong)

3) Finder crash. I can recall in Windows, the Explorer would crash sometimes, and I would be annoyed. I could reboot the system and that would resolve the issue for at least a week of uptime.
On my Panther laptop, no dice - I can get it to crash every single time.
Process:
1) My desktop wallpaper is randomly loaded from a folder in my "Pictures" folder.
2) I download images off of the web and they end up on my desktop.
3) I use Finder to navigate to the wallpaper folder that I have it pointing to for the random pool.
4) I then highlight more than one image file on my desktop (doesn't matter what file format), and then drag and drop that into the Finder folder that I have open.
5) It will then crash finder, clear the desktop and the dock from the screen, pause about 5 to 10 seconds, and then bring it all back up again, just not the wallpaper folder (but other Finder windows will be open as they were before).
None of the files are moved - but I guess I should be glad that none of the files are lost either.

The best annoyances are the ones that aren't predictable. I will be using my laptop after about 4 days and I can sense that it is unhappy. All the apps are running slowly, and the Powerbook is getting warm. Never a good sign. I fire up the Activity Monitor and see that nothing is really using much processor (Safari is usually sitting at 5%).
Sure enough, within an hour or so of this, I can expect to lose everything - meaning any open application will crash. Sure the OS doesn't crash, but who cares if it stays up when you lose all of the apps.
It even has gone so far as to corrupt an Excel file I was working - that was really fun to have to redo (I do enjoy extra work).

All in all, the Mac is fairly pleasurable to work with, but I must say that my dealings with WinXP are truly far more stable than the Mac - they just look worse.

[clarkgoble]

Sounds like something is off on your install if you are having those kinds of instability problems. I've only had the Finder crash once. Safari used to crash on me once a week but hasn't crashed once since the last Panther update.

You don't have APE or anything like that installed perchance, do you?

[OMGWTFBBQ]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Sounds like something is off on your install if you are having those kinds of instability problems. I've only had the Finder crash once. Safari used to crash on me once a week but hasn't crashed once since the last Panther update.

You don't have APE or anything like that installed perchance, do you?

I don't even know what APE is.

I got the Powerbook, took it out of the box and immediately installed Panther right over what was on there - no upgrade, just wiped it out and replaced it.

I have had people recommend rebuilding the permissions - I have done that twice and have seen no change at all in my experience.

Like I said, I have adjusted my behavior to account for it and am just waiting on more updates hoping that they will fix it eventually. Once it is finally stable, then I will be very hesitant to upgrade to anything else. At this point, I will upgrade to anything first chance I get, in hopes that it helps resolve whatever the issue is.

[billy_2004]

The reason your having difficulties is because your'e using OS X instead os XP. If you were using a PC running XP life would be so much better for you.

[CharlesS]

^ ^

Oh, and to all those who are jumping on Madra, claiming that the default button needs to be Cancel for dangerous actions, I have a little illustrated story for you:





The Restart panel is the only password panel I know of in the entire OS that has Cancel as the default button.

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by billy_2004:
The reason your having difficulties is because your'e using OS X instead os XP. If you were using a PC running XP life would be so much better for you.

well done! you managed to use the wrong version of 'you're/your' twice in the one sentence!

CharlesS - thanx for the illustration, but i fear you're wasting your time. they still won't get it.

[Moonray]

Originally posted by weezie:
It's called a "guideline" for a reason. It's not a law. It's not a sin to design something that doesn't follow the "guidelines" if the rationale for breaking it is well thought out. I for one agree with the original poster that the rationale for breaking this one is more than well thought out.

Blindly following "guidelines" can lead to a worse UI than always breaking them.

If following guidelines would make things worse then there would be something wrong with the guidelines.

-

[theolein]

On the same topic, what irritates me about OSX is that you can't tab through the various buttons in a dialog as you can on windows. Being able to tab through the buttons would make madra's problem less painful, as one could just hit tab until the right control appears in focus and then just hit enter. The focusing works at the moment but enter always selects the default.

So maybe billy the autistic idiot actually has a point.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by theolein:
On the same topic, what irritates me about OSX is that you can't tab through the various buttons in a dialog as you can on windows. Being able to tab through the buttons would make madra's problem less painful, as one could just hit tab until the right control appears in focus and then just hit enter. The focusing works at the moment but enter always selects the default.

So maybe billy the autistic idiot actually has a point.

System Preferences -> Keyboard & Mouse -> Keyboard Shortcuts -> Turn on Full Keyboard Access

[Developer]

Originally posted by theolein:
The focusing works at the moment but enter always selects the default.

You need to RTFM and press space.