[booboo]

iTunes and iPhoto are great for organizing your MP3's (sorry, AAC's) and photo's if you're interest extends only to the facilities offered by these app's. As soon as you start browsing your files from another app, say from an audio editing app or Photoshop, then it becomes a real pain that the iApp's file view does not resemble the Finder's. An MP3's name in iTunes can be completely different from its Finder name which can seriously add to the confusion and risks creating a Windows type scenario where the user just can't find their files.

For this reason alone I don't use iPhoto.

OK. There is a solution.

Firstly I want the iApp's file-view structure reflected in the Finder, in fact I want all the meta-data, MP3 tags, previews, etc to be handed over to the Finder, and for the Finder to allow me on a per-window basis what data I want displayed in that window - thumbnail, preview, MP3 tags, whatever.

Of course, this also requires that a window's settings are more robustly handled - i.e. the file-view settings shouldn't be so easily over-written by closing a window when it's being browsed in column view, for example. For this reason I want the column view separated from the 'spatial' and list views completely. Make column view a separate not-transmutable entity.

This way, if I set a window to show me an iTunes like display, or a bunch of photo - or movie - please - previews, I know the window settings are going to stay that way.

Even keep it brushed-metal for column view, if you like. But make it possible for the User to decide which window view is associated with the default key command, and which requires a further modifier key. And while you're at it, make the toolbar widget act like a toolbar switch in all modes - not as a kludgey mode-switch.

And maybe the toolbar's search facility might be better used as a live filter for that window only?

So build these extra file-view capabilities into the next Finder - maybe via a plug-in format - so that other app's (as well as our favourite iApp's) can access these capabilities too, and so we can return to a consistent view structure of our files across ALL applications.

Your comments?

[SMacTech]

Your ideas sound good, however, if I need to search for a song in iTunes and copy it somewhere I can do that easily with drag and drop from inside of iTunes. It can be a search of songs, an album or listed by any number of ways, then do a select all or command-click and drag and drop to the desired location.
You can do the same thing in iPhoto as well. At least in iLife 04, I can. I would much rather have Apple fix the remaining issues in the Finder, that some people have, than introduce more complexity to it, and consequently more bugs as a result.
I think that other Apps need to be updated to take advantage of the iApps database handling capabilities using the XML structures they provide.

[Big Mac]

As SMacTech states, you've brought up some good points. Metadata should be one of Apple's priorities, but it doesn't seem to be (judging from the anemic return of labels in 10.3). I actually like the way iTunes organizes files, but I do agree about iPhoto's scheme not being too friendly whatsoever.

You indicate you'd like to have the Finder grow to act as a true media manager, but that isn't where Apple is heading. If you listen to Jobs' old statements concerning the Finder and the iApps, you'll recall his contention that the iApps are supposed to replace the Finder for their respective specialties. And the user isn't supposed to interact with the filesystem directly when it comes to media management. When I saw the subject line of this thread, I actually thought you were talking about the inconsistencies between the iApps that arise when files are deleted. (In iTunes they're sent to the Trash, whereas in iPhoto they're contained in a fictitious resident trash, etc...)

Much of your concern, however, is due to the strange chimera that is the OS X Finder. I don't understand why Apple refuses to divorce browsing and spatial views - it could be done so very easily, and it would make things so much more consistent. At this stage of the game, it is painfully obvious that Apple doesn't ever intend to respond to user pleas. We've been fighting this fight since OS X day one, and it doesn't make sense to continue pining for something that seems unattainable. For that reason, I've decided to try my best to overlook the awkward functionality of the Finder and try to happily use the beast Apple has given us.

[booboo]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
As SMacTech states, you've brought up some good points. Metadata should be one of Apple's priorities, but it doesn't seem to be (judging from the anemic return of labels in 10.3). I actually like the way iTunes organizes files, but I do agree about iPhoto's scheme not being too friendly whatsoever.

I'm not unhappy with the way iTunes organizes, my point is that if iTunes were using the Finder's (requested) ability to see MP3 tags, etc, there would be no apparent change in iTunes functionality. It would simply be that any app could browse the MP3's and see the same organization that you see from within iTunes . . .

You indicate you'd like to have the Finder grow to act as a true media manager, but that isn't where Apple is heading. If you listen to Jobs' old statements concerning the Finder and the iApps, you'll recall his contention that the iApps are supposed to replace the Finder for their respective specialties. And the user isn't supposed to interact with the filesystem directly when it comes to media management. [/B]

Well I do think this is a mistake. I think some kind of file organization from the user is a good thing. I think the fact that this was historically easy on the Mac meant users developed a better relationship with their computers, and felt they actually knew where things were, rather than have them disappear into the chasms of a 'C Drive' . . .

But anyway, if iTunes abilities were a Finder 'Service' or plug-in, iTunes would still use them, and people could still use iTunes to browse their MP3's, but every other app, and the Finder too could see the same organization. That's my plea for consistency . . .

When I saw the subject line of this thread, I actually thought you were talking about the inconsistencies between the iApps that arise when files are deleted. (In iTunes they're sent to the Trash, whereas in iPhoto they're contained in a fictitious resident trash, etc...)[/B]

I wasn't, but that's another good point. How about one Trash to serve them all, one Trash to find them . . . ?

Much of your concern, however, is due to the strange chimera that is the OS X Finder. I don't understand why Apple refuses to divorce browsing and spatial views - it could be done so very easily, and it would make things so much more consistent. At this stage of the game, it is painfully obvious that Apple doesn't ever intend to respond to user pleas. We've been fighting this fight since OS X day one, and it doesn't make sense to continue pining for something that seems unattainable. For that reason, I've decided to try my best to overlook the awkward functionality of the Finder and try to happily use the beast Apple has given us. [/B]

I agree. But I think what I request is a better alternative to what we have, and the code largely already exists within the iApp's.

[jasong]

Um . . . I think the Finder based organization that iTunes does is excellent. I go to my Music folder and there is a list of all the artists I have, I open one of those folders and there is a list of the albums, I open an album and there is a list of songs. Seems pretty easy to me.

iPhoto . . . yeah, you got me on that one. Nothing I can do to defend that. Strangely enough though, it's never bothered me. Every action I have wanted to take on a photo I have been able to do in iPhoto.

-- Jason

[SMacTech]

An example of how 3rd party Apps should work with iLife apps is iBlog. When you go to add Photos to your blog, you are presented with the Album structure that iPhoto creates. There is no need to go browse the file system to find the photo you want to insert in your blog. However, the option to browse using the Finder would be another option I would like to see.
It would be nice if the Finder could dive into the iApps databases and present them in the same many for consistency, but I don't see this happening for the reasons BigMac stated.

[mitchell_pgh]

At any time in iTunes, you can control click a song and see the actual MP3/AAC

At any time in iPhoto, you can simply drag the image on to the desktop to make a copy.

I don't see the problem.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
At any time in iTunes, you can control click a song and see the actual MP3/AAC

At any time in iPhoto, you can simply drag the image on to the desktop to make a copy.

I don't see the problem.

Yes, you are right, that is what I stated earlier. But I can see the need for browsing the iApp file structures from another app using the same view you have inside the iApp itself. It's not a problem, just a desire to have the Finder perform the same consistent views that the iApps themselves present.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Yes, you are right, that is what I stated earlier. But I can see the need for browsing the iApp file structures from another app using the same view you have inside the iApp itself. It's not a problem, just a desire to have the Finder perform the same consistent views that the iApps themselves present.

Here's to hoping 10.4 will bring a database filesystem and apps and a revamped iPhoto and iTunes and Finder that uses it (so that everything is consistent.)

[booboo]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Here's to hoping 10.4 will bring a database filesystem and apps and a revamped iPhoto and iTunes and Finder that uses it (so that everything is consistent.)

Yes agreed.

and then everyone will see what the problem was before:

mitchell_pgh, say I'm working outside an iApp, I'm in Peak - say - a quasi-pro app - I want to import some MP3's, I can't just open the File Selector box and have the Finder (and by extension the Open/Save dialogues) see the same structure that iTunes sees. No. you want me to Open iTunes, find the mp3's in it, then presumably reveal them in the Finder and then drop them on (or Open With . . . ) Peak?

Np problem, for sure, but hardly the Apple elegance we all appreciate so much..

The problem is not there - or so difficult to circumvent - if you're in the iApp environment to start with.

But it's quite obvious if you come stumble on to it from the outside.

[booboo]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
But I can see the need for browsing the iApp file structures from another app using the same view you have inside the iApp itself. It's not a problem, just a desire to have the Finder perform the same consistent views that the iApps themselves present.

But to clarify, I don't want the Finder to have the ability to delve into the iTunes and iPhoto databases, I want one unified database, with iApp's using the Finder's abilities - like every other app does. This means giving the Finder the iApp's meta-data capabilities for starters . . .
How about all app's plugging into a fast, meta-data rich database file system? I'd say there might Be some chance of this.

My point about more robust window view settings was that I think the Finder should automatically display thumbnail previews of images and movies too - hell even Windoze does this - and I want to robustly customize my Finder windows to display their content most usefully. If I'm going to go to this trouble - which I do already using the fantabulous pic2icon - I don't want these carefully set up views wiped out by Ol' Clunky, the column view dinosaur . . .

[booboo]

Originally posted by Big Mac:

You indicate you'd like to have the Finder grow to act as a true media manager, but that isn't where Apple is heading. If you listen to Jobs' old statements concerning the Finder and the iApps, you'll recall his contention that the iApps are supposed to replace the Finder for their respective specialties.

But using the iApp's for their respective purposes isn't inconsistent with what I want.

The only practical difference - as far as a user is concerned - is that the Finder would see the same File Organisation as these app's do already. I'm not suggesting giving the Finder the ability to play random selections or browse the iTMS, just the ability to see and use all of the file attributes, and when I say the Finder, that obviously extends to all app's that call the Open/Save dialogues, for example.

[techtrucker]

I completely agree about iPhoto. Just recently I had some photos that I wanted to do some Photoshop work on and rather than find them via the Finder I exported them out of iPhoto, did what I wanted to do, then had to import them back in.
But it is a tough call, I can understand why Apple wants to isolate "typical" end users from the filesystem.

[booboo]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
At any time in iTunes, you can control click a song and see the actual MP3/AAC

At any time in iPhoto, you can simply drag the image on to the desktop to make a copy.

I don't see the problem.

Another example. say you're on Ebay - as zillions are - and you press the button to upload a photo.

What I'd like (with file-system consistency across all app's and the Finder) is for the Open/Save box to display what I'm used to seeing in iPhoto. I select my photo and done.

Now outline your procedure. I'd imagine it would be something like Open iPhoto, find photo, drag to desktop, go back to browser, click upload, navigate to desktop, select photo . . . etc. And you probably want to delete that photo that's now on your desktop - assuming it was an export and not the original?

Now do you see the lack of elegance?

Maybe Apple does want to shield users from the 'real' file system, but at some point interaction will be required, so why not have it up-front and easy to begin with?

Also, the fact that users learned to interact with the file system in Mac OS 9 in the same way that user didn't with Windows, is at least partly responsible for the fact that Mac users felt in control of their computers whereas Windows users feel at the mercy of theirs . . .

Now imagine Apple's next version of AppleWorks - iWork - browses documents in the same way as iPhoto/iTunes browse their files. You're in Dreamweaver and you want some text from a Document, an image you catalogued in iPhoto, and you want to convert a few seconds of an mp3 into a Shockwave file.

Now the lack of a consistent file structure starts to become a major headache.Rather than just collecting the files from within Dreamweaver, you have to open the respective app's and export . . .

[Superchicken]

Hey here's an idea, how bout if iPhoto kept a database, and all the photos were stored in one large database. And any Apple with an open or save dialouge box could browse an iPhoto like display within the dialouge box?

I think that would work fairly well would it not?

[booboo]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
Hey here's an idea, how bout if iPhoto kept a database, and all the photos were stored in one large database. And any Apple with an open or save dialouge box could browse an iPhoto like display within the dialouge box?

I think that would work fairly well would it not?

Please see my first post.

[mikerally]

Before iPhoto had the edit button (so I could open my photos in Photoshop as I browsed them in iPhoto) - I used to browse through my thumbnails in iPhoto and then I'd Command-Click all the ones I wanted to edit and then dragged them onto the Adobe Photoshop icon in the dock, and voila they would all open.

I would imagine the same a would be for opening MP3s Bias Peak, I would find the MP3s in iTunes and then Command-Click the ones I wanted to open and then drag them ontop of the Bias Peak icon in the dock.

It would be nice however, to directly browse the iPhoto and iTunes libraries in other programs, just like iDVD and iMovie could.

How about introducting a Service (e.g. like the system wide spell checker) in the Service menu for browsing these libraries from within any given program?

[booboo]

Originally posted by mikerally:


How about introducting a Service (e.g. like the system wide spell checker) in the Service menu for browsing these libraries from within any given program?

Maybe this 'service' could be called 'Finder 10.4?'

[Developer]

Originally posted by booboo:
Maybe this 'service' could be called 'Finder 10.4?'

The "Finder 10.3" has a Show Service. But for some weird unknown reason iPhoto 2 does not support Services.

[SS3 GokouX]

I think there is some kind of service that let's apps look through your iApp libraries, but it seems it needs to be specifically added by the developers. iTunes Catalog will display a list of all of your iTunes playlists and I don't think it fetches your playlists through AppleScript because it still works even when iTunes isn't running.

Maybe what Apple should do is add an extra row of buttons along the top of Open/Save dialogs; one button for each type of library (music, photos,... I guess that's all of them.). Clicking one of the buttons will switch to a view that shows a list of your albums/playlists on the left where the sidebar is, and then the rest of the window shows your library. Say for your music it'll have re-sortable columns for Song, Artist, Album, and for photos it could just display thumbnails.

It doesn't seem like that monumental of a task; iMovie, iDVD, and the Desktop & Screen Saver prefpane already let you choose items from your libraries and they seem to do it pretty fast, too.

Apple has done a great job at re-working the Open/Save dialogs since 10.0, and that way people could choose items from their libraries easily from any app and developers wouldn't have to build in support for every individual app.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by SS3 GokouX:
I think there is some kind of service that let's apps look through your iApp libraries, but it seems it needs to be specifically added by the developers. iTunes Catalog will display a list of all of your iTunes playlists and I don't think it fetches your playlists through AppleScript because it still works even when iTunes isn't running.

Maybe what Apple should do is add an extra row of buttons along the top of Open/Save dialogs; one button for each type of library (music, photos,... I guess that's all of them.). Clicking one of the buttons will switch to a view that shows a list of your albums/playlists on the left where the sidebar is, and then the rest of the window shows your library. Say for your music it'll have re-sortable columns for Song, Artist, Album, and for photos it could just display thumbnails.

It doesn't seem like that monumental of a task; iMovie, iDVD, and the Desktop & Screen Saver prefpane already let you choose items from your libraries and they seem to do it pretty fast, too.

Apple has done a great job at re-working the Open/Save dialogs since 10.0, and that way people could choose items from their libraries easily from any app and developers wouldn't have to build in support for every individual app.

Correct, basically, it's all XML, so any application can use it...

I understand what you are saying regarding a big database, but I think the average user would be very confused.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Developer:
The "Finder 10.3" has a Show Service. But for some weird unknown reason iPhoto 2 does not support Services.

Haha...you didn't get what he's saying. He's saying it shouldn't be a service at all...it should be the Finder itself!

[booboo]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Haha...you didn't get what he's saying. He's saying it shouldn't be a service at all...it should be the Finder itself!

Amen.