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stuffedmonkey · Apr 21, 2004, 09:50 AM

From Thinksecret:

"April 21, 2004 - Apple this week seeded the first pre-release build of Mac OS X 10.3.4, its fourth minor Panther update. The seed was labeled build 7H41 and was released to developers on Tuesday.

In a seed note, Apple said Version 10.3.4 should provide a performance gain when launching non-prebound applications. In addition, the update includes several changes that may affect device compatibility, specifically, TWAIN scanners, USB Flash Media, SCSI drives, iPods, and some PCMCIA cards. The update also reportedly incorporates updates relating to Audio FireWire and USB 2.0 connectivity for the iPod.

Version 10.3.4 also includes changes to Core Audio, OpenGL, Graphics, Core OS, and the High Level Toolbox, Apple told developers.

Apple also specified several known issues with the latest build involving Quartz Extreme and DVD playback, Safari table rendering, redraw problems, display resolutions, and System Profiler.

The company's last minor Panther update was Version 10.3.3."

gorickey · Apr 21, 2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by stuffedmonkey:
In a seed note, Apple said Version 10.3.4 should provide a performance gain when launching non-prebound applications.

Which are what exactly?

osiris · Apr 21, 2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by stuffedmonkey:
"...that may affect device compatibility, specifically, TWAIN scanners, USB Flash Media, SCSI drives, iPods, and some PCMCIA cards."

So devices that work now won't work after the update?

::maroma:: · Apr 21, 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by osiris:
So devices that work now won't work after the update?

Hey, at least they're giving us a heads up!

SMacTech · Apr 21, 2004, 11:53 AM

My iPod still works, as does my 256mb Toshiba flash drive. Just got it installed, without any issues so far.

CharlesS · Apr 21, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by osiris:
So devices that work now won't work after the update?

Well, it could be that they're referring to adding new drivers so that devices that don't work now will work after the update.

I highly doubt that Apple would release an OS update that broke compatibility with the iPod.

DaveGee · Apr 21, 2004, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, it could be that they're referring to adding new drivers so that devices that don't work now will work after the update.

I highly doubt that Apple would release an OS update that broke compatibility with the iPod.

While I tend to be an Apple Defender...

I gotta say the wording is pretty clear... it seems to indicate the potential for device 'breakage' rather than 'fixage' otherwise instead of saying something like this:

"In addition, the update includes several changes that may affect device compatibility, specifically, TWAIN scanners, USB Flash Media, SCSI drives, iPods, and some PCMCIA cards."

They would have said something like this:

"In addition, the update includes several changes that IMPROVE device compatibility, specifically, TWAIN scanners, USB Flash Media, SCSI drives, iPods, and some PCMCIA cards."

Or it could have just been some poorly chosen words... (also possible I guess)

But now that I think about it for a second, it's strange that they specifically include iPods in the mix... Maybe they did something that breaks the 3rd party apps that allowed users to copy music back off the iPod? This is just a guess on my part, but that would make sense since I'm sure Apple has a reason they don't want you to do it.. Some deal with the record companies I'm sure.

Dave

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by DaveGee:
Maybe they did something that breaks the 3rd party apps that allowed users to copy music back off the iPod? This is just a guess on my part, but that would make sense since I'm sure Apple has a reason they don't want you to do it.. Some deal with the record companies I'm sure.

can't rule that out after seeing how they rolled out iTunes 4.0.1, which broke up the sharing party

Basilisk · Apr 21, 2004, 12:14 PM

Oh for goodness sake...

The message is standard boilerplate. It appears in some form or fashion in every seed note ever.

It means they changed things in IOKit and since _any_ change has the potential to break things they are looking for the dev seed users to check compatbility. Its a warning to developers who write third-party device drivers that they need to check their code under 10.3.4. This is precisely the point of dev seeding, and these sorts of warnings are standard practice.

Nothing to see here folks, move along....

Alex

tooki · Apr 21, 2004, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by gorickey:
Which are what exactly?

OK, in a nutshell:

Modern programs use "libraries" of pre-defined functions, commands, etc. (So does Windows: the nefarious Dynamic Linked Libraries -- DLLs.)
OS X has a robust library management system, which allows multiple versions of a library to exist, so that programs written for a specific version of the library get that version, rather than a newer or older one that may work differently.
In OS X, because libraries can be found in many places (including inside the application), it can take a long time to find the correct ones (this process is called "binding"). Prebinding is finding the necessary libraries, and then, for each program, caching its library location so they don't have to be looked for again. The prebinding process is most commonly seen in Apple's Installer: it's the "Optimizing..." step at the end of an install.

OS X 10.0 and 10.1 required the occasional manual prebinding for optimum performance. 10.2 and up automatically do it for any program launched if it isn't already prebound. (When a non-prebound program is launched, a process called "update-prebinding" launches silently in the background and does it.) I guess that 10.3.4 is faster at launching programs that haven't yet been prebound.

In any case, it's a minor improvement, since at worst, the program launches slowly one time. By the second launch, the prebinding has been done and it will launch quickly in the future.

tooki

Busemann · Apr 21, 2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by osiris:
So devices that work now won't work after the update?

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a beta

SMacTech · Apr 21, 2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Busemann:
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a beta

Don't be, because it is.

osiris · Apr 21, 2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Hey, at least they're giving us a heads up!

That is always appreciated!

I think I'll sit this one out.

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 21, 2004, 02:27 PM

Unfortunately, MacNN is widely regarded as the forum for dumb Mac users because of comments not unlike the ones in this thread.

I hope people wisen up on this board because it's embarassing to be seen with some of you.

gorickey · Apr 21, 2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Unfortunately, MacNN is widely regarded as the forum for dumb Mac users...

Though I agree to some point and can see why, I don't think it's "widely regarded" that way...

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I hope people wisen up on this board because it's embarassing to be seen with some of you.

yeah, i totally respect you with a name like that

SMacTech · Apr 21, 2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Unfortunately, MacNN is widely regarded as the forum for dumb Mac users because of comments not unlike the ones in this thread.

I hope people wisen up on this board because it's embarassing to be seen with some of you.

And you are here because you want to be embarrassed or you want to wisen <sic> us dumb Mac users?

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 21, 2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
And you are here because you want to be embarrassed or you want to wisen <sic> us dumb Mac users?

I want people to grow up. AppleInsider folks and ArsTechnica think MacNN forum members are the bums of the Mac society. If you all don't mind, then just ignore what I've said and keep on with the pointless bickering and uninformed posts.

gorickey · Apr 21, 2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
AppleInsider folks and ArsTechnica think MacNN forum members are the bums of the Mac society.

Damn, I would like to hear what they say about SpyMac then...

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 03:02 PM

yikes. you mean, anonymous people on an internet forum might have a negative opinion of me? oh lordy, no.

please excuse me while i go and drink 2 gallons of bleach, i can't deal with the stress of that.

lngtones · Apr 21, 2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I want people to grow up. AppleInsider folks and ArsTechnica think MacNN forum members are the bums of the Mac society. If you all don't mind, then just ignore what I've said and keep on with the pointless bickering and uninformed posts.

I guess this means war...

chris v · Apr 21, 2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I want people to grow up. AppleInsider folks and ArsTechnica think MacNN forum members are the bums of the Mac society. If you all don't mind, then just ignore what I've said and keep on with the pointless bickering and uninformed posts.

As a member of both MacNN and Appleinsider, I don't know whether to be happy or sad about this

Does that usename garner you extra respect and epenis length over at ARS?

CV

OptimusG4 · Apr 21, 2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by philzilla:
yikes. you mean, anonymous people on an internet forum might have a negative opinion of me? oh lordy, no.

please excuse me while i go and drink 2 gallons of bleach, i can't deal with the stress of that.

I'm just gonna grab a gun, I can't bear the thought any longer!

::maroma:: · Apr 21, 2004, 03:55 PM

I say we have a brawl!! Meet at Apple headquarters in Cupertino, and let's get it on!! Don't forget your Apple branded brass knuckles!

CharlesS · Apr 21, 2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I want people to grow up.

Oh, the irony...

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by ::maroma:::
I say we have a brawl!! Meet at Apple headquarters in Cupertino, and let's get it on!! Don't forget your Apple branded brass knuckles!

are they the cool lookin' ones which cost twice as much as the ones that break all the time?

Bobby · Apr 21, 2004, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, it could be that they're referring to adding new drivers so that devices that don't work now will work after the update.

I highly doubt that Apple would release an OS update that broke compatibility with the iPod.

You do realize the joke here right???

Millennium · Apr 21, 2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I hope people wisen up on this board because it's embarassing to be seen with some of you.

It's equally embarassing to be seen with a guy names Horsepoo.

I want people to grow up. AppleInsider folks and ArsTechnica think MacNN forum members are the bums of the Mac society.

AppleInsider considers us the bums of the Mac society? Forgive me for taking that as a personal compliment.

Though if they're on the lookout for the bums of the Mac society, they should be looking here instead. The single biggest circle-jerk of OS9-whiners out there, which is to say six people (and before you get on my case for using the word "whiner", go read the site).

If you all don't mind, then just ignore what I've said and keep on with the pointless bickering and uninformed posts.

Unfortunately, some of us do mind.

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 21, 2004, 04:17 PM

This is exactly what I'm talking about here...pointless bickering and thread derailement. Nobody has returned to the subject at hand because they decided they needed to give their 2 cents about what I said earlier.

Seems like once again, I'll have to act like the moderator and point you all back to the thread subject. I'm sorry I started the derailement...but I'm not the one that kept bending the tracks here.

Get back to the subject please...and prove me wrong.

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
This is exactly what I'm talking about here...pointless bickering and thread derailement. Nobody has returned to the subject at hand because they decided they needed to give their 2 cents about what I said earlier.

Seems like once again, I'll have to act like the moderator and point you all back to the thread subject. I'm sorry I started the derailement...but I'm not the one that kept bending the tracks here.

Get back to the subject please...and prove me wrong.

i see. so, it's embarassing to be seen with us, yet you're still here?

go on then, moderate us. get the thread back on the rails. give us your version. thrill us with your acumen. my heart flutters with excitement.

SMacTech · Apr 21, 2004, 04:33 PM

They weren't kidding about the Safari frames issue. This problem is very apparent here on these forums. This problem is so bad, I am not going to install it on my home Mac. This is a show stopper for me, and a first time I haven't installed a developer release because of a known bug. Why they would release this, I don't know.

gorickey · Apr 21, 2004, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by philzilla:
thrill us with your acumen. my heart flutters with excitement.

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 21, 2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by philzilla:
i see. so, it's embarassing to be seen with us, yet you're still here?

go on then, moderate us. get the thread back on the rails. give us your version. thrill us with your acumen. my heart flutters with excitement.

I chose my name so you'd (and MacNN members) feel comfortable with me.

It's not embarassing to me...but others might feel a bit put off by your (and MacNN members) posts.

philzilla · Apr 21, 2004, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I chose my name so you'd (and MacNN members) feel comfortable with me.

It's not embarassing to me...but others might feel a bit put off by your (and MacNN members) posts.

you're confusing me with someone who gives a f*ck. and you're also avoiding putting the thread back on the rails. come on. i've just rang my editor and told him the deadline will have to be on hold for a few more hours, because i'm about to read the most earth-shattering post on an internet forum, EVER!

to quote you: Get back to the subject please.

Horsepoo!!! · Apr 21, 2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by philzilla:
you're confusing me with someone who gives a f*ck. and you're also avoiding putting the thread back on the rails. come on. i've just rang my editor and told him the deadline will have to be on hold for a few more hours, because i'm about to read the most earth-shattering post on an internet forum, EVER!

to quote you: Get back to the subject please.

No...let's just keep proving my point that MacNNers are just a bunch of bickering SOBs that can't keep threads on their tracks.

::maroma:: · Apr 21, 2004, 06:57 PM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiit a minute here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Horsepoopie that derailed this thread to begin with?? The thread was sticking to speaking about 10.3.4 seed, and then Horsedump came in and made a comment about how MacNN is the scum at the bottom of the Mac Forums barrel.

And I don't understand why he even made that comment in the first place.

Oh well. All hope is gone with this thread.

gorickey · Apr 21, 2004, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
No...let's just keep proving my point that MacNNers are just a bunch of bickering SOBs that can't keep threads on their tracks.

Ozzpot · Apr 21, 2004, 07:11 PM

I hope Apple fix the annoying issue of the funny shadows on inactive windows. It's only a small thing, but it really bugs me.

Webscreamer · Apr 21, 2004, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Ozzpot:
I hope Apple fix the annoying issue of the funny shadows on inactive windows. It's only a small thing, but it really bugs me.

I'm glad it bothers someone else too... drives me crazy

Link · Apr 21, 2004, 08:29 PM

To pump a little bit of usefulness into this thread:

That's all? It sounds like they're holding off actually FIXING problems until 10.4.. go figure.

Then again I could be wrong, but if they fixed the keyboard driver screwup, stuck process prob, and were able to get loginwindow tamed, well they'd be bragging about it.

They're not, however.

mishap · Apr 21, 2004, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by philzilla:
yikes. you mean, anonymous people on an internet forum might have a negative opinion of me? oh lordy, no.

please excuse me while i go and drink 2 gallons of bleach, i can't deal with the stress of that.

philzilla, that was great.

lngtones · Apr 21, 2004, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Ozzpot:
I hope Apple fix the annoying issue of the funny shadows on inactive windows. It's only a small thing, but it really bugs me.

What is this?

ul1984 · Apr 21, 2004, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by lngtones:
What is this?

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=187777

ul1984 · Apr 21, 2004, 11:44 PM

i really hope this problem is fixed in this build!
Dock Minimize Effect Choppy
Quartz mysteriously slowing down in Panther?

Millennium · Apr 22, 2004, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
This is exactly what I'm talking about here...pointless bickering and thread derailement. Nobody has returned to the subject at hand because they decided they needed to give their 2 cents about what I said earlier.

In the legal world, that would be called entrapment. You derailed this thread; take some responsibility for it, you troll.

Ahem. Aside from the fact that I've never cared for all this desperate LAGS (Latest-And-Greatest Syndrome) exhibited by those who frequent these threads, I think people should keep in mind that this is the first we've heard about any external build of 10.3.4. Given this, it is almost certainly feature-incomplete. In particular, about the driver thing: most likely Apple had to make some low-level changes, and still needs to see what if any drivers were broken because of it, so that any bugs introduced by these changes can be fixed before the release date.

philzilla · Apr 22, 2004, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Aside from the fact that I've never cared for all this desperate LAGS (Latest-And-Greatest Syndrome) exhibited by those who frequent these threads, I think people should keep in mind that this is the first we've heard about any external build of 10.3.4

yeah, exactly. i've never understood the need to be first to post stuff like this. granted, this came from another website, but i have never felt the need the break an NDA and go posting things i'm not supposed to, merely so i can be the first to break a story. the phrase "do i get mad props or what?" was used in this situation once, and i still laugh at that now. utterly sad.

there's every chance the build will get withdrawn anyway, so what's the point in getting all worked up about it? none, really. get worked up as you're installing it via Software Update, and not before.

heh, LAGS. like it.

Altix · Apr 22, 2004, 06:49 AM

My only wish, is for them to supply a decent trackpad driver. It's got the worst type of acceleration I've come across. I have it set to the highest there is, the little pointer zooms about the screen quite merrily; but then slow down, and Apple's idea of precision for slow movements, is like pushing my finger through treacle. I managed to install a 3rd party driver (sidetrack), but now the mouse jumps everwhere, with no precision at all.

philzilla · Apr 22, 2004, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Ozzpot:
I hope Apple fix the annoying issue of the funny shadows on inactive windows. It's only a small thing, but it really bugs me.

i've just noticed the shadow bug on desktop filenames, on my iMac. i thought that was fixed? i don't get it on my Powermac though. both running 10.3.3 too. weird.

Altix · Apr 22, 2004, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by philzilla:
i've just noticed the shadow bug on desktop filenames, on my iMac. i thought that was fixed? i don't get it on my Powermac though. both running 10.3.3 too. weird.

It's a weird one that. I got it with 10.3.0, and up to the .2 update, but now it seems mostly gone in .3, haven't seen it for a while. I'm guessing it could be related to the type of gfx board in the Mac.

SMacTech · Apr 22, 2004, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by philzilla:
i've just noticed the shadow bug on desktop filenames, on my iMac. i thought that was fixed? i don't get it on my Powermac though. both running 10.3.3 too. weird.

That's certainly is an elusive bug for some, as I saw it only once on the 4 Macs I own. It was on my MDD867 with a GeForce4Mx. Then it went away when the Finder updated after downloading a file in Safari.
The bug I wish they would fix, which has happened on two of my Macs, is scrolling with the down arrow key in Safari, and I would let go and it would keep scrolling, until I hit another key. This just doesn't happen in Safari, I have seen it happen in Mail.app, where a key would just start repeating itself, until you hit another key.