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mattyd · Apr 28, 2004, 03:25 PM

since the introduction of the iPod, people have speculated that the iPod would act as a so-called trojan horse, infiltrating the Windows world and resulting in increased CPU sales for Apple. so far, it hasn't happened, but here's how i think it could...

we've all heard about the "Home on iPod" feature that was supposed to be part of Panther, but was removed. its pretty obvious that Apple will introduce that feature in a future release of OS X. at the same time they should introduce a "thin client" Mac -- basically a stripped down, hard drive-less Mac (which was one of Steve's pet projectes years ago, and we know how he loves to revisit old ideas). schools could stock their labs and classrooms with these super-cheap Macs (that would boot off an xServe, of course, or a tiny internal hard drive) and instead of buying students $1000 iBooks, they could buy them all $300 iPods. the "thin Mac" could even have an iPod dock built right into it's case. students would plop their iPod into any station, log in and have "their computer" instantly.

when they take their iPods home they'd be able to plug their iPod into their home computer (which would have to be a Mac running OS X, naturally) and continue with their work. don't have a Mac at home? that's where the increase in home sales would come from. i don't think it would hurt iTunes Music Store sales either.

seems like most of the pieces are in place and it would tie together many of Apple's core markets, competencies and products.

wataru · Apr 28, 2004, 03:42 PM

I don't think it's "obvious" that they will put in that feature, nor do I think it would be all that great if they did.

cold aspiration · Apr 28, 2004, 05:28 PM

what about pc palms? why hasn't schools bought their students $300 palms

mattyd · Apr 28, 2004, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by cold aspiration:
what about pc palms? why hasn't schools bought their students $300 palms

palms don't have 20 gig hard drives and allow you to log in to your Windows account stored on them.

jwblase · Apr 28, 2004, 11:16 PM

Hmmmm..... If the ThinMac were configured correctly, then it would have to be completely NetBoot oriented, and have network storage for each logged in user. After all, nothing's worse than having a labful of ThinMac computers, and no students with iPods to dock to them. Instead of having the Home on a iPod, I could see the iPod as an external storage drive instead of the home folder, but depending on Apple's implementation of the idea (assuming it is really coming), then it could work.

Price for the ThinMac would be extremely important. It would have to be competetive with existing school/corporate pricing schemes (on the order of $299-$399/station when ordered in bulk... including monitor).

I think that schools would be on their own for having students order iPods, but I suppose schools could have this work.

As with all things, time will tell.

JB

mattyd · Apr 29, 2004, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by jwblase:
Hmmmm..... If the ThinMac were configured correctly, then it would have to be completely NetBoot oriented, and have network storage for each logged in user. After all, nothing's worse than having a labful of ThinMac computers, and no students with iPods to dock to them.

sure. that's where the xServe RAID comes in. files could automatically sync between the network storage drives and the user's iPod.

I think that schools would be on their own for having students order iPods, but I suppose schools could have this work.

i'll buy that. for students who didn't already have an iPod, Apple could offer volume edu. discounts and get them in kids' hands for less than $200.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 29, 2004, 03:45 PM

I don't know...

Apple and cheap don't mix. There is no reason for apple to offer a thin client as an eMac can be had for around $600 (educational pricing)

Teachers wouldn't "get it" and it would confuse more people then help.

Most parents only understand More computers = GOOD and not much more.

I just don't see it happening.

jwblase · Apr 30, 2004, 02:13 PM

In the education market, parent's really don't matter that much. It's the IT person/committee that makes the decisions.

JB

mattyd · Apr 30, 2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by jwblase:
In the education market, parent's really don't matter that much. It's the IT person/committee that makes the decisions.

JB

right on. and i think the IT person/committee would appreciate having reduced up-front costs, not to mention the benefit of less of their expensive equipment (i.e. laptops) leaving the school and potentially getting damaged. and by not giving kids full-blown computers of their own, you'll cut down on porn surfing, music swapping, game playing, etc. which would make everyone happy (parents included).

Graymalkin · May 1, 2004, 02:53 AM

Diskless systems are tied to their file servers and to the lab's networking hardware. If a switch burns out or the server goes down they're useless. The network would also see severe slowdowns if too many systems on a network segment were booting up simultaneously. Diskless systems are also not easily moved. A lab of diskless systems can't easily be dispersed into the school's offices when the lab's budget allows for a system upgrade.

Systems with their own system disks are much more robust. With OSX Server's Workgroup Manager a network of Macs is as easy to administer as a bunch of diskless systems with regards to access control and software management. If the server or network is down the systems can at least be used in a limited capacity. During boot up a normal Mac only needs to talk to the server to get login information and mount network shares which is a much lighter load on the server and network. When the lab gets money for an upgrade the Macs can be easily dispersed into the offices of professors and administrators.

Diskless systems are also entirely inappropriate for some tasks. Lacking a scratch disk means they'd have no business being used as video or photo editing workstations. Under a tight budget they couldn't be turned into makeshift file and print servers. An eMac loaded with some RAM and a copy of OSX Server could easily act as a file and print server or be a lab's workgroup server. A diskless system could not be retasked as such.

The network and server requirements for diskless systems makes them very bad computers to run in a school environment. They seem like a good idea until you more carefully examine the logistics for their use. They end up costing more money in man-hours and network equipment than they save in individual up front costs.

hudson1 · May 1, 2004, 05:32 AM

How could a diskless system use virtual memory in a reliable way? I don't see that happening.

What possibly could work and maybe was explained above is the ability to optionally select a tethered (w/ Firewire) or netwoked home folder on startup (or even through Fast User Switching). An iPod could be used for this. Practically speaking, it seems that there would be a need for at least one user to reside on the hard drive, even if it was some type of dummy or default user.

dru · May 1, 2004, 05:53 AM

In the olden days, Steve's vision for the very first system from next, the NeXT Computer, was for (university) students to "carry their world" with them. They'd have all their apps, system software and documents on portable storage. They'd just pop it in to the nearest NeXT on campus, in the dorm, at work (later on when they started selling through BusinessLand, a ComputerLand division), log-in and do their tasks, save, log-out and go home with their "world" in their backpacks or briefcases.

That's why he ditched the floppy and even, on the base system, the hard disk as well in favor of the 250MB magneto-optical R/W SONY drive. Technology, however, wasn't up to the task with the mag-op drive of 1989 being slow and noisy. Later NeXT hardware releases included floppy drives and hard disks.

Anyway, that was the Steve's vision in 1988/1989 for the original NeXT.

End history lesson.

sniffer · May 1, 2004, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by dru:
snip

Reminds me of .Mac.

Boondoggle · May 1, 2004, 09:39 AM

As far as I can tell the only thing that a thin mac doesn't have is a HD and system software.

I doubt that removing these from any of apple's current lineup would reduce the cost enough to justify going to all the trouble of netboot and the potential reliability issues described above.

Removing a $100 hard drive from a computer that could support the documents of many users and then obliging those users to each buy a $300 iPod doesn't sound that cost effective really.

Of course with home on ipod the users could then access thier stuff from any computer, however that it isn't really that great unless there is a computer everywhere, in which case they might as well just give them a cheap iBook to take with them.

This is of couse what many institutions are now doing.

osxisfun · May 1, 2004, 11:22 AM

maybe, after testing, apple realized that the since the ipod has no real ventilation, the home ipod idea would end up burning too many ipods...

I was looking forward to that feature as well but realized that i use more HD space then an ipod has and that an ipod can get really warm just listening to music, let alone a constant thrashing from the OS.

mattyd · May 1, 2004, 12:04 PM

would there be constant thrashing if it were just used for files, prefs, etc and not as a boot/scratch drive?

all good points above. still, i'd love to see a mac with a built-in iPod dock and the Home on iPod feature.

Detrius · May 1, 2004, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by hudson1:
How could a diskless system use virtual memory in a reliable way? I don't see that happening.

What possibly could work and maybe was explained above is the ability to optionally select a tethered (w/ Firewire) or netwoked home folder on startup (or even through Fast User Switching). An iPod could be used for this. Practically speaking, it seems that there would be a need for at least one user to reside on the hard drive, even if it was some type of dummy or default user.

The virtual memory is stored on the server and is accessed over the network. Machines that only have 128MB are unbearable with diskless netboot. 256MB is still bad. It works best with large amounts of memory--just like OS X with a disk.

Due to this virtual-memory-on-the-server issue, these netboot machines sometimes hard freeze when there is a hickup in the network.

mitchell_pgh · May 1, 2004, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by jwblase:
In the education market, parent's really don't matter that much. It's the IT person/committee that makes the decisions.

JB

Parents have a VERY big say... They interact directly with the school board and superintendent who has unparalleled control over the schools. While the IT person and friends has a big say when it's a neutral climate, when the school board and superintendent says "We will use Windows or Mac" everyone else usually falls in line.

mitchell_pgh · May 1, 2004, 03:33 PM

Like someone else said, removing a $100 hard drive (actually, it's more like $40 or less) doesn't really cut the bottom line. If anything it makes it a liability down the road.

I'm a big fan of the headless eMac idea and have come to realize that taking the monitor off wouldn't make a $999 be reduced to a $600 eMac, but it would take more off then a HD would (especially in shipping/packaging costs.

I would rather see 30 headless eMacs connected to Dell monitors vs. 30 dell systems.

mitchell_pgh · May 1, 2004, 03:38 PM

P.S. why would you want to give a kid an iPod when you could give them a $40 - 256 MB flash key chain. They could put all of their stuff on those.

You could argue that 256 isn't large enough, but I'm betting most schools would disagree.

voodoo · May 1, 2004, 03:43 PM

Home on iPod? I don't think so!

I had my 3rd gen iPod for 3 months and then *wham* out of the blue the HD just dies. I take it to the shop and all they can do is replace the iPod. iPods have flakey hard drives. They also have finite batteries that can cause all sorts of trouble when they become old. I would never trust an iPod for anything else than my music player on the road and the occasional portable HD to transfer DivX movies or CD images. That's about it.

My ~/ on an iPod bwahahahahhaha

As if never.

PS: a very similar thing happened to my brother's 2nd gen iPod after about a year. Neither Pod was under any structural stress. Never dropped to the floor or anything.

mitchell_pgh · May 2, 2004, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Home on iPod? I don't think so!

I had my 3rd gen iPod for 3 months and then *wham* out of the blue the HD just dies. I take it to the shop and all they can do is replace the iPod. iPods have flakey hard drives. They also have finite batteries that can cause all sorts of trouble when they become old. I would never trust an iPod for anything else than my music player on the road and the occasional portable HD to transfer DivX movies or CD images. That's about it.

My ~/ on an iPod bwahahahahhaha

As if never.

PS: a very similar thing happened to my brother's 2nd gen iPod after about a year. Neither Pod was under any structural stress. Never dropped to the floor or anything.

I can't wait until 2GB flash cards are $40...

They are virtually indestructible, no moving parts...

dru · May 2, 2004, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
P.S. why would you want to give a kid an iPod when you could give them a $40 - 256 MB flash key chain. They could put all of their stuff on those.

You could argue that 256 isn't large enough, but I'm betting most schools would disagree.

This is probably a far better technology to employ if Steve revisited his classic NeXT concept, since there's no moving parts, no excessive heat problems and no worry about a short battery life.