[Scientist]

Instead of having a dedicated uninstaller program like windows, Apple could integrate this functionality into the finder. Whenever someone moves an application to the trash, OS X could offer to toss the preferences and any other files associated fwith the app.

I don't think this would be very difficult to implement. An application's developer (or the installer program itself) could add a list of these files to the .APP package during installation which the finder could reference everytime someone tosses an APP away.

[gorickey]

I dig it...

[CharlesS]

I don't. Why do we need this? Just leave the preference file in - it doesn't hurt anything by being there and often takes up about 4K on the disk.

Most apps are drag-and-drop installs - dragging them to the Trash already deletes the relevant stuff. Programs that provide installers can provide uninstallers as well. We don't need the Finder secretly deleting files without our knowledge.

For example, take this scenario: Suppose I download a new version of an app. Before I do that, I drag the old version into the Trash. If trashing the old version before installing the new one caused all my prefs and support files to get deleted so I have to set the whole damn thing up again, that is a recipe for one very pissed off CharlesS.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Suppose I download a new version of an app. Before I do that, I drag the old version into the Trash. If trashing the old version before installing the new one caused all my prefs and support files to get deleted so I have to set the whole damn thing up again, that is a recipe for one very pissed off CharlesS.

I believe the original poster stated it could be an "option"...not default behavior...

[zachs]

Great idea. So long as it's an option, it'd be extremely useful.

[Scientist]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
I don't. Why do we need this? Just leave the preference file in - it doesn't hurt anything by being there and often takes up about 4K on the disk.

Most apps are drag-and-drop installs - dragging them to the Trash already deletes the relevant stuff. Programs that provide installers can provide uninstallers as well. We don't need the Finder secretly deleting files without our knowledge.

For example, take this scenario: Suppose I download a new version of an app. Before I do that, I drag the old version into the Trash. If trashing the old version before installing the new one caused all my prefs and support files to get deleted so I have to set the whole damn thing up again, that is a recipe for one very pissed off CharlesS.

A dialog box would appear asking you if you want to delete the associated files. It would not happen without your knowledge. Why should developers and users have to deal with custom uninstallers? I'd like a consistent way to delete any app on my harddrive. Why should I have to use uninstallers to remove some apps and the trashcan for others. This method simplifies things for the user. Also, I like to keep my apps truly self contained and not have them in a folder with miscellaneous cruft such as uninstallers, etc. This makes that possible for larger more complicated apps like the ones Adobe and Macromedia make.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by Scientist:
A dialog box would appear asking you if you want to delete the associated files. It would not happen without your knowledge. Why should developers and users have to deal with custom uninstallers? I'd like a consistent way to delete any app on my harddrive. Why should I have to use uninstallers to remove some apps and the trashcan for others. This method simplifies things for the user. Also, I like to keep my apps truly self contained and not have them in a folder with miscellaneous cruft such as uninstallers, etc. This makes that possible for larger more complicated apps like the ones Adobe and Macromedia make.

Amen to that. I had to re-install Dreamweaver MX the other day, because I was getting a rather weird bug message. I ended up having to hunt down all of those little files and erase them, which left me rather peeved. Why doesn't Mac have an "uninstall" feature built-in? It seems intuitive, almost... I assumed it would be a given, as user-friendly as OS X is.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by vcutag:
Amen to that. I had to re-install Dreamweaver MX the other day, because I was getting a rather weird bug message. I ended up having to hunt down all of those little files and erase them, which left me rather peeved. Why doesn't Mac have an "uninstall" feature built-in? It seems intuitive, almost... I assumed it would be a given, as user-friendly as OS X is.

Because it encourages application developers to make apps that leave crud all over the file system like that. Drag and drop installations are the way to go; the only time anything should need an installer is if it:

1. needs to install UNIX software in /usr/local

2. needs to install a kernel extension

3. needs to install some type of plug-in that needs to go in some special subfolder of /Library or ~/Library, and isn't one of the types already supported in the OS by double-clicking (as pref panes or screen savers are in Panther).

The thing about uninstallers is that you can't trust them. They may leave stuff behind and fail to remove it all. This is a common problem on Windows. We don't need it to be this way - the vast majority of apps don't need to do any of the 3 things above, so they should be simple drag-and-drop apps, with no uninstaller.

[retroneo]

The BIG problem with a drag installer is that the ownership for the application is incorrectly set and the user is INCONVENIENCED by having to open Disk Utility and then run Repair Permissions. Big problem on a system with multiple users.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by retroneo:
The BIG problem with a drag installer is that the ownership for the application is incorrectly set and the user is INCONVENIENCED by having to open Disk Utility and then run Repair Permissions. Big problem on a system with multiple users.

That should not be an issue. If the app is set so that all users have read and execute privileges, it should not matter who is the owner.

Repair Permissions only checks .pkg receipts for the permissions to change, so it shouldn't even change a DnD - installed app at all. This is FUD.

[tooki]

I see a couple of serious arguments against a centralized installer:

1. it might require something akin to the dreaded Windows Registry. Somehow the OS would have to track what app installed what. It might do this with a central registry (what happens if you drag an app to the trash and tell the OS to not delete its associated files? Is the registry uninstall entry left?). If done dynamically (similarly to how Receipts are left behind for Repair Permissions to use), it means the system has to scan for them, and dynamically reconcile conflicts and whatnot.

2. Uninstallers, as a whole, have the problem that they have the ability to destroy the functionality of other apps. Ever had an OS 9 uninstaller remove a library or extension that another program needed? I have. It sucks. I'd rather each app be self-contained.

3. Do you really want an uninstaller to delete files? I know that even if I delete Word, I wouldn't want it deleting things I'd written in it!

tooki

[Brass]

Originally posted by tooki:
I see a couple of serious arguments against a centralized installer:

1. it might require something akin to the dreaded Windows Registry. Somehow the OS would have to track what app installed what. It might do this with a central registry (what happens if you drag an app to the trash and tell the OS to not delete its associated files? Is the registry uninstall entry left?). If done dynamically (similarly to how Receipts are left behind for Repair Permissions to use), it means the system has to scan for them, and dynamically reconcile conflicts and whatnot.

2. Uninstallers, as a whole, have the problem that they have the ability to destroy the functionality of other apps. Ever had an OS 9 uninstaller remove a library or extension that another program needed? I have. It sucks. I'd rather each app be self-contained.

3. Do you really want an uninstaller to delete files? I know that even if I delete Word, I wouldn't want it deleting things I'd written in it!

tooki

Personally, I don't see any real need for a central install or uninstall method either, apart from Drag and Drop which works very well for most applications (with the exception of those not built well).

however, 1 & 2 above are non-issues in a well designed system (the Windows registry is NOT a well designed system). A good example of how this SHOULD work in the packages system on Solaris. Software can be installed as a package where the package system (effectively a database) keeps track of which files belong to which package, as well as a very complicated web of package dependancies. If a file belongs to several packages, and one of those packages is removed, the file does not get removed unless all of the other packages have already been removed.

It sounds too good to be true, but that's just because we live in a Windows-centric world where people are used to putting up with that rubbish. For Solaris, it works beautifully!

Still, I don't think it's necessary for most applications where drag and drop is so intuitive and friendly.

[mitchell_pgh]

NO NO NO NO NO...

This would be the worst thing EVER

Just like Apple switching to the two button mouse.

If an install/uninstall application was available developers would feel free to spread their code all over the OS with the justification of "well, just use the uninstaller".

There should be ONE application file that you can drag to the trash to remove.

Beyond that, some applications should be able to place --> A <-- folder in the Libraries folder (and perhaps one help file).

Other then server stuff, those are the only acceptable files in my opinion.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
NO NO NO NO NO...

This would be the worst thing EVER

Just like Apple switching to the two button mouse.

If an install/uninstall application was available developers would feel free to spread their code all over the OS with the justification of "well, just use the uninstaller".

There should be ONE application file that you can drag to the trash to remove.

Beyond that, some applications should be able to place --> A <-- folder in the Libraries folder (and perhaps one help file).

Other then server stuff, those are the only acceptable files in my opinion.

Finally, someone gets it.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Finally, someone gets it.

he basically reworded your post. i agree with you too.

[Simon]

I find an uninstaller terribly unnecessary on top of the fact CharlesS pointed out that it encourages bad behavior.

When it comes to installers, I rely on the File > Show Files menu in Installer.app. Just before I actually press the install button, I dump the text file with all entries to my disk. I get to see what and where stuff is installed and if I ever need to get rid of it I know where to check.

Unfortunately, many devs do not use the this standard installer, but some old and ugly POS installer I had already hated in the OS 9 days. They tell you nothing about where the stuff will be dumped and the uninstall button normally doesn't get rid of half the junk that was installed.

Therefore I would really appreciate is a little utility (could even be CLI as far as I'm concerned) that dumps a list of all files with their paths within a certain disk/volume/directory/etc. That way I can dump a list before and after doing some crazy install. A little diff of the two text files would then tell the user what and where the naughty installer has dropped any files or folders. I don't know of any such utility (at least not as open source or freeware).

[theolein]

The thing is that Apple's .pkg system 'suxorz ballz'. Every single Linux distro has a well functioning package management system these days that is both light years ahead of the Windows Registry (which even MS acknowledges as beinga real problem, and it won't exist in Longhorn). apt-get on Debian, rpm on RH, emerge on Gentoo etc. They all work well, keep a record of dependencies and uninstall packages if one wants that. It would have been so easy for Apple to have done this with all software.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Scientist:
[B]Why should developers and users have to deal with custom uninstallers?

Why should developers and users have to deal with uninstallers at all? This isn't Windows, where apps leave behind traces which can actually damage the system (particularly in the form of Registry keys). Sure, there's the odd preferences file, but that does no harm.

Why should I have to use uninstallers to remove some apps and the trashcan for others.

You remove an app with the same method you used to install it. If you dragged it on, you drag it off. If you ran a program to install, you run that same program to uninstall. This is, in my opinion, the simplest possible way of handling this.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by theolein:
The thing is that Apple's .pkg system 'suxorz ballz'. Every single Linux distro has a well functioning package management system these days that is both light years ahead of the Windows Registry (which even MS acknowledges as beinga real problem, and it won't exist in Longhorn). apt-get on Debian, rpm on RH, emerge on Gentoo etc. They all work well, keep a record of dependencies and uninstall packages if one wants that. It would have been so easy for Apple to have done this with all software.

This is the real problem. We need a real package management system.

Interestingly enough, plans for this were once in the works. The installer system for OSX was originally supposed to be based on Debian's dpkg format, which Fink uses now. Why Apple chickened out of this I don't know (though I suspect it was basically a case of Not-Invented-Here Syndrome coming from the ex-NeXT crowd), but as a result we're left with the piece of junk we currently have.

This is not to cast doubt on the excellent work CharlesS has done with Pacifist, which has cleaned up a number of the worst problems of Apple's system. However, there's only so much that even he can do, given the base he has to work from. A real Unix-style package management system includes things like dependency tracking and even (potentially) building from source; Apple's system doesn't even have a foundation for this sort of thing.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
NO NO NO NO NO...

This would be the worst thing EVER

Just like Apple switching to the two button mouse.

If an install/uninstall application was available developers would feel free to spread their code all over the OS with the justification of "well, just use the uninstaller".

There should be ONE application file that you can drag to the trash to remove.

Beyond that, some applications should be able to place --> A <-- folder in the Libraries folder (and perhaps one help file).

Other then server stuff, those are the only acceptable files in my opinion.

Yes!

This is exactly the problem that we face by providing a centralized uninstaller. Every "convenience" feature introduced will eventually lead to its becoming necessary for day-to-day operation; this is a fact borne out by many years of experience. As Mitchell points out, the same would be true of going to a two-button mouse by default; it would encourage bad interface design among programmers.

Of course, the same was also true of memory protection, and in the OS9 days some people -including, I am ashamed to admit, myself, in my OS9-zealot days- tried to use this as an argument against implementing memory protection: it would encourage slovenly programming habits, because an application crash couldn't take out the whole system. This prediction has actually come true, as anyone who complains about "application stability" on OSX can attest to. However, most would say it was worth it.

[Scientist]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
NO NO NO NO NO...

This would be the worst thing EVER

That bad, huh? How difficult is it for developers to make single folder apps? Is it so difficult that developers would rather create annoying installers and uninstallers? I had anticipated this problem but did not think it would be as big of a deal as some of you seem to think.

My original idea did not envision a centralized uninstaller. I thought that a simple text file in each .APP package, containing the installed file receipt, would do the job. There would be no registry to get corrupted.

On second thought this ideas does have some problems I didn't anticipate (I'm no developer). I imagine files that were shared between multiple applications might cause most of the difficulties.

Does Apple discourage the use of nonapple branded shared libraries? If not, how is this done when all files for an App must be kept in one package. If so, does this not remove some problems, like dll hell while creating others, like unnecessary memory usage?

It was an idea. FWIW I have been using debian's apt-get package managment system for years. This one feature, despite all debian's other annoyances, has kept me coming back. In my opinion it is lightyears ahead of Windows and OS X in this regard.

[mitchell_pgh]

I simply feel you should be able to drag an application to the trash and be done with it. I'm cool with having a 15K pref folder/file in my library).

Who knows, I may reinstall it some day..

I just don't want them to create folders in my music folder, my photo folder, in the system folder, in the application folder, a desktop alias...

or any other random places...

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Yes!

Of course, the same was also true of memory protection, and in the OS9 days some people -including, I am ashamed to admit, myself, in my OS9-zealot days- tried to use this as an argument against implementing memory protection: it would encourage slovenly programming habits, because an application crash couldn't take out the whole system. This prediction has actually come true, as anyone who complains about "application stability" on OSX can attest to. However, most would say it was worth it.

Well, technically it does, but we need to remember that memory protection keeps the system from crashing.

[Scientist]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I simply feel you should be able to drag an application to the trash and be done with it. I'm cool with having a 15K pref folder/file in my library).

Who knows, I may reinstall it some day..

I just don't want them to create folders in my music folder, my photo folder, in the system folder, in the application folder, a desktop alias...

or any other random places...

True true. There is nothing I hate more than programs dumping preferences and other garbage in my Documents folder.