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stoneage · May 8, 2004, 11:27 PM

There is a lot of kernel panics going on around the forums. I was getting them on an iMac DV SE , but I also had a display problem that forced me to buy a new eMac (1 gig Apple ram, 80 gig H/D) The kernel panics returned and I started troubleshooting. Did all the maintenance stuff including DiskWarrior, and only used the basic apps ( Safari, iCal, AddyBook, Watson and System Prefs). I suspected Mail because that was the only common denominator to that point. When I fired up Mail I soon got a panic while composing a message, after I had sent and received some items. Should I reinstall Mail using Pacifist? Will I lose all my mailboxes and prefs?

Ryan Becker · May 9, 2004, 02:57 PM

Odd. Kernal Panics are usually caused by hardware, not software. So, have you tried running with only the Apple mouse and keyboard attached?

Reinstalling the Mail app will probably have little effect. The thing that would most likely help would be to delete all your mailboxes and preferences, because these are the things most likely to go corrupt and cause problems, not so much the app itself.

But, there are also many system compontents to mail that will only be replaced by a system reinstall. So, if it keeps up, you may want to consider doing an Archive and Install.

-Ryan

Angus_D · May 9, 2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Odd. Kernal Panics are usually caused by hardware, not software. So, have you tried running with only the Apple mouse and keyboard attached?

Wow, so you were hanging out at the Apple Discussion Forums for ages and you still can't spell "kernel"?

Anyway, it'd be useful if you could post the contents of the kernel panic log. Did you install any RAM yourself? If so try pulling that and see if the problem goes away.

msuper69 · May 9, 2004, 05:04 PM

An application such as Mail can not cause a kernel panic. No way, no how. It's called protected memory. If an app tries to access memory outside of it's address space (due to a logic error in the app, for instance), the app will "unexpectedly quit", resulting in a crash log that displays information about the current state of the machine, including the contents of the registers, et. al. That's what this commonly seen message in the crash logs means:

"Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS (0x0001) at 0x4d546889"

Basically it boils down to your program tried to muck about where it's not supposed to. And an application crash results because the program is no longer in a logically consistent state where execution could be continued.

A kernel panic is somewhat analgous to this except now the OS itself comes crashing down to make sure that bad data is not written to disk somewhere which could result in some very strange results at a later date.

Ryan Becker · May 9, 2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Wow, so you were hanging out at the Apple Discussion Forums for ages and you still can't spell "kernel"?

Well, we had a spell checker there. But, I'll trade a spell checker for these cool smilies any day!

-Ryan

stoneage · May 9, 2004, 09:56 PM

Here is my problem: I haven't had Mail open for almost three days, and I opened it to see responses to this forum. As i was reading your reply I had a kp. It has gone way beyond coincidence. The only time this thing crashes is when Mail is open. It doesn't happen instantly: sometimes I can check Mail and Quit and everything runs fine. Other times I start composing and whammo. Is an Archive and Install the only option? Here is the last panic.log if anyone can decipher anything from it.
*********

Sun May 9 21:44:39 2004

Unresolved kernel trap(cpu 0): 0x300 - Data access DAR=0x0000000000000004 PC=0x000000000008D37C
Latest crash info for cpu 0:
Exception state (sv=0x32984000)
PC=0x0008D37C; MSR=0x00001030; DAR=0x00000004; DSISR=0x40000000; LR=0x0003759C; R1=0x17323D50; XCP=0x0000000C (0x300 - Data access)
Backtrace:
0x02AEDE00 0x0021DE94 0x00215930 0x002157B0
Proceeding back via exception chain:
Exception state (sv=0x32984000)
previously dumped as "Latest" state. skipping...
Exception state (sv=0x25606500)
PC=0x9000B30C; MSR=0x0000D030; DAR=0xE4DE9000; DSISR=0x42000000; LR=0x90196BA0; R1=0xF0171CF0; XCP=0x00000030 (0xC00 - System call)

Kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 7.3.0:
Fri Mar 5 14:22:55 PST 2004; root:xnu/xnu-517.3.15.obj~4/RELEASE_PPC

panic(cpu 0): 0x300 - Data access
Latest stack backtrace for cpu 0:
Backtrace:
0x000834B8 0x0008399C 0x0001EDA4 0x000909C0 0x00093C8C
Proceeding back via exception chain:
Exception state (sv=0x32984000)
PC=0x0008D37C; MSR=0x00001030; DAR=0x00000004; DSISR=0x40000000; LR=0x0003759C; R1=0x17323D50; XCP=0x0000000C (0x300 - Data access)
Backtrace:
0x02AEDE00 0x0021DE94 0x00215930 0x002157B0
Exception state (sv=0x25606500)
PC=0x9000B30C; MSR=0x0000D030; DAR=0xE4DE9000; DSISR=0x42000000; LR=0x90196BA0; R1=0xF0171CF0; XCP=0x00000030 (0xC00 - System call)

Kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 7.3.0:
Fri Mar 5 14:22:55 PST 2004; root:xnu/xnu-517.3.15.obj~4/RELEASE_PPC

Angus_D · May 10, 2004, 11:43 AM

I call bad memory.

Ryan Becker · May 10, 2004, 01:10 PM

I second the bad memory idea.

Again, it HAS to be hardware... sure, maybe Mail is causing the problem, but the hardware is what is causing the KP.

I still say give it a shot with only the Apple mouse and keyboard attached. And, maybe try removing any added RAM.

Also, try running your Hardware Test CD several times... sometimes it takes a few tries for memory errors to show up.

-Ryan

stoneage · May 10, 2004, 04:36 PM

I had 1 gig of RAM installed when I boiught this eMac less than three weeks ago. Can that really be the problem? Is there some way to test it without digging into the box? Or should I just dump it in the Apple store lap and let them figure it out?

Ryan Becker · May 10, 2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by stoneage:
I had 1 gig of RAM installed when I boiught this eMac less than three weeks ago. Can that really be the problem? Is there some way to test it without digging into the box? Or should I just dump it in the Apple store lap and let them figure it out?

Yes, it is very very likely that bad RAM is the culprit.

Like I said before, run the Hardware Test CD that came with your eMac. If it doesn't report problems the first time, try it once or twice more... it can take a few attempts before RAM problems show up.

But, I'm almost willing to bet money on RAM being the problem here, so you may just want to take it back to the Apple Store and tell them you are having KPs which you think are due to bad RAM. They have more complex hardware testing software there that will be more likely able to tell them if RAM is the problem.

-Ryan

stoneage · May 11, 2004, 05:42 AM

I'm going to have to take it back to Apple. I ran the easy test three times and the extended test twice and no bad RAM shows up. Thanks for the advice.

stoneage · May 11, 2004, 08:46 PM

Article in today's MacCentral news:

Kernel Panics
We continue to receive scattered, non-specific reports of kernel panics after applying the 2004-05-03 security update. Occurrences seem random so far, with no concrete triggering actions - aside from launching certain applications.

MacFixIt reader Randy Smith writes "Since the 2004-05-03 Security Update I have noticed more kernel panics than I have ever had. Strangely they seem to happen after start up. I always connect to my wireless network and then launch mail.app and Safari at the same time. This does not always result in a kernel panic but it is the most likely time I will have one.

"It does not seem to matter if I launch these apps right after starting up or if I start them 30 minutes after starting up but without touching the computer before then. Restarting later in the day or launching these apps at the same time later in the day never results in a kernel panic. I can find no other common points other than first start up and mail.app and safari coupled with the first morning start up and even then it is not consistent."

Your best bet in this situation is to start with a disk permissions repair using Apple's Disk Utility (located in Applications/Utilities). And, as stated yesterday, try finding problematic applications' .plist files (located in ~/Library/Preferences) then deleting them. For instance, "com.apple.mail.plist" for Apple's Mail.app.

More success with repairing permissions for mail problems We previously reported that repairing disk permissions also helps with some of the SMTP mail issues that have cropped up with the latest security update.

We've since received confirmation for the fix from a number of readers, including Terry Easton, who writes "A while back, Mail.app of my dual-USB iBook (10.2) developed problems recognizing SMTP servers and accepting passwords. After considerable investigation, I repaired permissions and the problems went away. Similar problems have recurred and the same fix dispatched them."

Ryan Becker · May 12, 2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by stoneage:
Article in today's MacCentral news:...

Hmmm, I don't know what to say about that article...

MacCentral should know better than to blame Kernel Panics on software. KPs have to be caused by hardware. And, like I said, maybe Mail is triggering it, but the hardware is what's causing it.

I'm still placing my money on a RAM issue.

Maybe the new security update and mail together are exposing problems with RAM that never showed up before.

-Ryan

CatOne · May 12, 2004, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Hmmm, I don't know what to say about that article...

MacCentral should know better than to blame Kernel Panics on software. KPs have to be caused by hardware. And, like I said, maybe Mail is triggering it, but the hardware is what's causing it.

I'm still placing my money on a RAM issue.

Maybe the new security update and mail together are exposing problems with RAM that never showed up before.

-Ryan

Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by software. Low level bugs in the OS can cause a kernel panic. And things that have kernel-mode access (i.e. device drivers) can cause a kernel panic. And they do

Really if you had to count the number of kernel panics someone like ATI or Nvidia gets when they're working on OS X drivers... I'll bet it's 10-15 a day (maybe more!) in the early days when they're still in early releases. Driver software really needs to be debugged well, because it can bring down the ship easily.

Ryan Becker · May 12, 2004, 02:02 PM

Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by software.

I assume you meant to say HARDWARE there?

Low level bugs in the OS can cause a kernel panic.

What!? When was the last time you hard of an OS X "bug" that caused Kernel Panics??

And things that have kernel-mode access (i.e. device drivers) can cause a kernel panic. And they do

Yeah, and those "things" are hardware!

Really if you had to count the number of kernel panics someone like ATI or Nvidia gets when they're working on OS X drivers... I'll bet it's 10-15 a day (maybe more!) in the early days when they're still in early releases. Driver software really needs to be debugged well, because it can bring down the ship easily.

Again, that's hardware! Drivers are what run hardware....

-Ryan

CatOne · May 12, 2004, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by software.

I assume you meant to say HARDWARE there?

Low level bugs in the OS can cause a kernel panic.

What!? When was the last time you hard of an OS X "bug" that caused Kernel Panics??

And things that have kernel-mode access (i.e. device drivers) can cause a kernel panic. And they do

Yeah, and those "things" are hardware!

Really if you had to count the number of kernel panics someone like ATI or Nvidia gets when they're working on OS X drivers... I'll bet it's 10-15 a day (maybe more!) in the early days when they're still in early releases. Driver software really needs to be debugged well, because it can bring down the ship easily.

Again, that's hardware! Drivers are what run hardware....

-Ryan

Oops, sorry right I meant hardware. Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by hardware.

There are plenty of OS X bugs that can cause kernel panics. Sure you may not encounter them, and in fact most of them (hopefully ALL of them, but let's be real here) are squashed by the time the product ships, but if you had access to the OS X source you could modify one file and do a divide by 0 and ... *boom* kernel panic.

So it's very possible for a software bug to cause a kernel panic. Just because there are few bugs in the shipping product doesn't mean there are 0 bugs, and even if there were 0 bugs, still, a software bug CAN cause a kernel panic. Period.

As for the drivers issue... drivers are SOFTWARE. The video card is hardware, but there must be SOFTWARE to run the card. Something has to help you communicate with the hardware, and that is software! OS X typically packages video drivers with the OS, but this doesn't mean you can't get drivers separately. If you go buy a 3rd party video card, it will come with a CD with OS X drivers... that's certainly software! If there are bugs in those drivers, it can crash the OS. And it's not the card crashing the OS, it's the instructions in the drivers.

Have you developed much software? Have you ever written drivers? If you had, you'd understand

Ryan Becker · May 12, 2004, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by CatOne:
Oops, sorry right I meant hardware. Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by hardware.

There are plenty of OS X bugs that can cause kernel panics. Sure you may not encounter them, and in fact most of them (hopefully ALL of them, but let's be real here) are squashed by the time the product ships, but if you had access to the OS X source you could modify one file and do a divide by 0 and ... *boom* kernel panic.

So it's very possible for a software bug to cause a kernel panic. Just because there are few bugs in the shipping product doesn't mean there are 0 bugs, and even if there were 0 bugs, still, a software bug CAN cause a kernel panic. Period.

As for the drivers issue... drivers are SOFTWARE. The video card is hardware, but there must be SOFTWARE to run the card. Something has to help you communicate with the hardware, and that is software! OS X typically packages video drivers with the OS, but this doesn't mean you can't get drivers separately. If you go buy a 3rd party video card, it will come with a CD with OS X drivers... that's certainly software! If there are bugs in those drivers, it can crash the OS. And it's not the card crashing the OS, it's the instructions in the drivers.

We have a difference in terms then... to me, drivers don't count as normal "software" like the Mail app. Drivers are part of hardware, and Mail has no drivers.

What I am saying is, normal "software" like Mail, which have no driver, can not cause KPs.

Have you developed much software? Have you ever written drivers? If you had, you'd understand.

I'm not here to play these "I know more than you" games... I'm not going to get into how much I really know about Macs. I just come to help and answer questions without making them overly complicated like you have now done.

This is doing nothing to help the original poster, which is what I was here to do. If anything, you've only confused him even more now.

-Ryan

msuper69 · May 12, 2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by CatOne:
Oops, sorry right I meant hardware. Kernel panics do not HAVE to be caused by hardware.

There are plenty of OS X bugs that can cause kernel panics. Sure you may not encounter them, and in fact most of them (hopefully ALL of them, but let's be real here) are squashed by the time the product ships, but if you had access to the OS X source you could modify one file and do a divide by 0 and ... *boom* kernel panic.

So it's very possible for a software bug to cause a kernel panic. Just because there are few bugs in the shipping product doesn't mean there are 0 bugs, and even if there were 0 bugs, still, a software bug CAN cause a kernel panic. Period.

As for the drivers issue... drivers are SOFTWARE. The video card is hardware, but there must be SOFTWARE to run the card. Something has to help you communicate with the hardware, and that is software! OS X typically packages video drivers with the OS, but this doesn't mean you can't get drivers separately. If you go buy a 3rd party video card, it will come with a CD with OS X drivers... that's certainly software! If there are bugs in those drivers, it can crash the OS. And it's not the card crashing the OS, it's the instructions in the drivers.

Have you developed much software? Have you ever written drivers? If you had, you'd understand

You beat me to it. Thanks for typing in what I was going to.

Ryan Becker · May 12, 2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by msuper69:
You beat me to it. Thanks for typing in what I was going to.

Hey thanks, that really adds a lot to this thread.... I'm sure the original poster is so grateful for all the help you just provided.

You people in this forum need to learn how to help the people that need help, instead of wasting your time trying to prove to eachother how much you know.

-Ryan

CatOne · May 12, 2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Hey thanks, that really adds a lot to this thread.... I'm sure the original poster is so grateful for all the help you just provided.

You people in this forum need to learn how to help the people that need help, instead of wasting your time trying to prove to eachother how much you know.

-Ryan

Ryan, It does no good to provide INCORRECT answers, and then continue to insist you're not wrong. WRONG advice/information is much worse than NO information. The guy will go around saying "well, software CAN'T cause a kernel panic!" because of what you said, and then he's going to be corrected in an embarrasing way

Really -- if you don't know what you're talking about, don't offer advice. At least, that's my advice

And I am not muddying anything. You don't know what a device driver is, don't blame me for correcting you. I'm only trying to be accurate and concise. I wasn't trying to be mean spirited, but when you reply to me and tell me that I'm wrong, I'll break out more information until you (and the original poster) understand the actual issue.

If a blue car goes by and you say "hey, a red car!" to someone who's just learning colors, and I'm standing nearby, I'm the kinda guy who may just say "um, excuse me... the car was blue."

Ryan Becker · May 12, 2004, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by CatOne:
Ryan, It does no good to provide INCORRECT answers, and then continue to insist you're not wrong. WRONG advice/information is much worse than NO information. The guy will go around saying "well, software CAN'T cause a kernel panic!" because of what you said, and then he's going to be corrected in an embarrasing way

Really -- if you don't know what you're talking about, don't offer advice. At least, that's my advice

And I am not muddying anything. You don't know what a device driver is, don't blame me for correcting you. I'm only trying to be accurate and concise. I wasn't trying to be mean spirited, but when you reply to me and tell me that I'm wrong, I'll break out more information until you (and the original poster) understand the actual issue.

If a blue car goes by and you say "hey, a red car!" to someone who's just learning colors, and I'm standing nearby, I'm the kinda guy who may just say "um, excuse me... the car was blue."

Well, let's ask the original poster then...

Who has helped you more here?

And, listen

I know what a stupid driver is! What I am saying is that is not "software" in the terms that people refer to it. A driver is for hardware, so if that driver is causing problems, it's because of the hardware that is connected. Disconnect the hardware and the driver wont cause KPs. Get it!?!?!?

You are trying to prove you are better, and I really don't care. I'm trying to keep things simple and get to the bottom of the problem.

God, this forum is worthless.... a bunch of arrogant immature dorks with nothing better to do than try to show eachother how much they know. I'm not here for that... I'm here to help.

-Ryan

CatOne · May 12, 2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Well, let's ask the original poster then...

Who has helped you more here?

And, listen I know what a stupid driver is! What I am saying is that is not "software" in the terms that people refer to it. A driver is for hardware, so if that driver is causing problems, it's because of the hardware that is connected. Disconnect the hardware and the driver wont cause KPs. Get it!?!?!?

You are trying to prove you are better, and I really don't care. I'm trying to keep things simple and get to the bottom of the problem.

God, this forum is worthless.... a bunch of arrogant immature dorks with nothing better to do than try to show eachother how much they know. I'm not here for that... I'm here to help.

-Ryan

*sigh*

A driver is but one EXAMPLE of software that can cause a kernel panic. You said the problem HAS to be related to hardware, that software CANNOT cause a kernel panic. This is simply untrue, and the driver example is the first (and only) example I gave... there are more. If he goes and checks for ONLY hardware-related issues, he could miss the real issue.

vmarks · May 13, 2004, 06:10 AM

Ryan,

Drivers are software that happens to interface with hardware. So does software like internet connection, which queries the hardware (modem, pptp, etc) to see the status of it and start it dialling.

Yes, there are bad applications that are not drivers which can cause kernel panics. Thankfully, most software like this doesn't get released.

Were you unaware that Norton SystemWorks (not a driver) caused a kernel panic in one of its first releases for OS X?

Be careful not to say things you can't take back when you label the whole of the forums (some 3000-4000 users) as a lot of worthless dorks-- after all, you're registered here, too.

vmarks · May 13, 2004, 06:12 AM

Ryan,

Drivers are software that happens to interface with hardware. So does software like internet connection, which queries the hardware (modem, pptp, etc) to see the status of it and start it dialling.

You can have bad drivers loaded without hardware attached. USB is a perfect example of this, and suffer a kernel panic even though the hardware isn't attached.

Yes, there are bad applications that are not drivers which can cause kernel panics. Thankfully, most software like this doesn't get released.

Were you unaware that Norton SystemWorks (not a driver) caused a kernel panic in one of its first releases for OS X?

Be careful not to say things you can't take back when you label the whole of the forums (some 3000-4000 users) as a lot of worthless dorks-- after all, you're registered here, too.

Boondoggle · May 13, 2004, 01:45 PM

Ryan:

I understand you want to be helpful but If you tell someone that the KP's he's having are due to his video hardware, and he goes out and buys a replacement card and it is in fact the drivers that are at fault, how helpful was that advice really?

He now has 2 cards and is still getting the KP's.

Software isn't just stuff you click on with a mouse.

So live and learn, don't just live.

You'll be happier.

Ryan Becker · May 13, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
Ryan:

I understand you want to be helpful but If you tell someone that the KP's he's having are due to his video hardware, and he goes out and buys a replacement card and it is in fact the drivers that are at fault, how helpful was that advice really?

He now has 2 cards and is still getting the KP's.

Software isn't just stuff you click on with a mouse.

So live and learn, don't just live.

You'll be happier.

When did I say it was because of the video card!?!? I said it was his RAM, and I still bet that's the problem.

C'mon people....

-Ryan

Boondoggle · May 13, 2004, 09:15 PM

Are you being deliberatly obtuse or did you really not understand the example above and how it relates to the conversation?

Detrius · May 13, 2004, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
When did I say it was because of the video card!?!? I said it was his RAM, and I still bet that's the problem.

C'mon people....

-Ryan

It could be his logic board. If it were a machine that has a separate processor, it could be that too.

Detrius · May 13, 2004, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by vmarks:

Were you unaware that Norton SystemWorks (not a driver) caused a kernel panic in one of its first releases for OS X?

SystemWorks 3 still causes kernel panics. It's at the most bizarre times too. *Bam* your machine just panicked.

Another example of software causing kps: The Revolution 7.1 PCI card drivers had some serious bugs in them for a long time. I found that changing the volume too much caused panics. If I didn't change the volume, my machine was stable. The drivers (com.m-audio.revolution) always showed up in the kp logs. Software. Not hardware.

Detrius · May 13, 2004, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
We have a difference in terms then... to me, drivers don't count as normal "software" like the Mail app. Drivers are part of hardware, and Mail has no drivers.

What I am saying is, normal "software" like Mail, which have no driver, can not cause KPs.

-Ryan

The driver is a piece of machine code that exists on the hard drive. It is a long string of binary data. The fact that it lists instructions for the processor makes it software. The firmware on your logic board is software. The ROM that makes the chime when you turn on your Mac is software. The kernel that sometimes panics is software. In fact, it's "normal" software. The Mail program is, of course, software. The difference is where this software resides and how the user interacts with the software. The stuff you double click on could simply be called an "Application." Applications cannot cause panics as they are inside the protected memory. Kernel extensions reside within the kernel memory space and can therefore cause kernel panics--even without hardware, as is still demonstrated regularly by Norton SystemWorks.

As a note, though, if your machine crashes a lot and it crashes more after an update or reinstall, you have something bad in your memory system. This is most likely RAM, but it could be the logic board or the processor as well. Also, after you replace the bad RAM, you may still experience crashes. What's going on here is that in some cases, the bad RAM made the machine crash. In other cases, it garbled information on the hard drive. Sometimes, that garbled information caused crashes. That garbled information on the hard drive is still garbled after replacing the bad RAM. You'll have to reinstall the OS and possibly every other piece of software on your computer.

Angus_D · May 14, 2004, 10:03 AM

I thought I'd just chime in to point out that lots of people used to get kernel panics because of the smbfs kernel extension, which is also not a driver.

Ryan, everybody knows that you were trying to help, but what you said was wrong, and in the long run that doesn't help anybody. It's not really to do with one-upmanship at all.

Ryan Becker · May 14, 2004, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
I thought I'd just chime in to point out that lots of people used to get kernel panics because of the smbfs kernel extension, which is also not a driver.

Ryan, everybody knows that you were trying to help, but what you said was wrong, and in the long run that doesn't help anybody. It's not really to do with one-upmanship at all.

Whatever, you guys just keep blowing hot air up your own a$$es.

I try to keep things simple, and I think you all know what I mean. You are all just trying to play "hey, let's show the new guy how much more we know" and all that does is make it more and more confusing for the original poster.

If this were to happen in a real tech support job, you all would be fired.

-Ryan

stoneage · May 14, 2004, 04:49 PM

After a panic, I run fsck -y and I get a line that says 'orphaned indirect node temp (7 digit number)'. Anyone know what that's all about? BTW, let's all try to get along. Everybody here is smarter than me, and I thought this was a help forum. Thanks for the help, guys.

CatOne · May 14, 2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
Whatever, you guys just keep blowing hot air up your own a$$es.

I try to keep things simple, and I think you all know what I mean. You are all just trying to play "hey, let's show the new guy how much more we know" and all that does is make it more and more confusing for the original poster.

If this were to happen in a real tech support job, you all would be fired.

-Ryan

So the guy says he'll send his computer back, because you told him it had to be a hardware problem (because kernel panics are only due to hardware issues, thus it must be a hardware issue!). And we disagree with us, so you say we blow hot air and we'd be fired.

You know, a large component of my job is tech support. Last 3 jobs have, actually. Like 8 years worth. And the most recent one actually relates to Apple computers. How about that?

Really, don't get pissed when you're contradicted, if you are wrong. Accept it. And quit calling names as a tantrum.

Ryan Becker · May 14, 2004, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by stoneage:
After a panic, I run fsck -y and I get a line that says 'orphaned indirect node temp (7 digit number)'. Anyone know what that's all about?

Here is what I would say about that:

That is a directoy error that will probably require Alsoft's DiskWarrior to repair it.

And, I don't see any way that could be the cause of Kernel Panics, but it could surely be the cause of some other problem, and should probably be taken care of.

But, apparantely I don't know anything, so don't listen to me...

-Ryan

Ryan Becker · May 14, 2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by CatOne:
So the guy says he'll send his computer back, because you told him it had to be a hardware problem (because kernel panics are only due to hardware issues, thus it must be a hardware issue!). And we disagree with us, so you say we blow hot air and we'd be fired.

My lord will you just give it a rest already!?

I mentioned several things for him to try on his own, and his final decision was to take it in for repair. What's wrong with that? What do you suggest? Should he remove every single driver and kernel extension on his computer?!

You know, a large component of my job is tech support. Last 3 jobs have, actually. Like 8 years worth. And the most recent one actually relates to Apple computers. How about that?

That doesn't mean you are good at it.... 3 jobs in 8 years isn't a great track record.

Really, don't get pissed when you're contradicted, if you are wrong. Accept it.

I am not wrong. I just use more simple wording to try to make it easier on the less computer savvy. You all are just trying to impress eachother with your useless knowledge, and that doesn't impress me.

-Ryan

Xeo · May 15, 2004, 07:47 PM

Here's my input. Don't use incorrect terms just to dumb down something. Simpler terms, fine. Calling drivers hardware is simply incorrect. So don't call them hardware just cause you're afraid the person listening won't get it.

As to the problem, to find out if it's bad RAM, you can open a lot of programs at the same time. This will cause them all to be loaded into RAM, hopefully filling it up, but a Gig of RAM will take quite a few programs to fill it. And if it causes a panic, then you know it's probably RAM. Bad RAM is one of the most common reasons for a panic. It could be that before you use Mail, you're not using the bad RAM, but as soon as you start using Mail, the computer starts accessing the bad RAM and you panic. That's my reasoning, anyway.

Angus_D · May 16, 2004, 06:02 AM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
That is a directoy error that will probably require Alsoft's DiskWarrior to repair it.

And, I don't see any way that could be the cause of Kernel Panics, but it could surely be the cause of some other problem, and should probably be taken care of.

But, apparantely I don't know anything, so don't listen to me...

Probably either unrelated or the other way around. If the kernel panics, your directory could be left in an inconsistent state as things might have been interrupted while they were changing it.

Oh, and you won't need DW unless it doesn't go away even though you ran fsck a couple of times.

Then again, nobody was saying that it caused the KPs, so whatever.

Angus_D · May 16, 2004, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by Xeo:
Here's my input. Don't use incorrect terms just to dumb down something. Simpler terms, fine. Calling drivers hardware is simply incorrect. So don't call them hardware just cause you're afraid the person listening won't get it.

stoneage · May 16, 2004, 07:42 AM

OK guys, I have used the "test" user for three days and haven't had a KP. I opened every big app I have at the same time and didn't get a KP. So I am pretty sure that it is some software problem in my old account. Is there a good plan to proceed? I am not the best trouble shooter out there.

CatOne · May 17, 2004, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Ryan Becker:
My lord will you just give it a rest already!?

I mentioned several things for him to try on his own, and his final decision was to take it in for repair. What's wrong with that? What do you suggest? Should he remove every single driver and kernel extension on his computer?!

You know, a large component of my job is tech support. Last 3 jobs have, actually. Like 8 years worth. And the most recent one actually relates to Apple computers. How about that?

That doesn't mean you are good at it.... 3 jobs in 8 years isn't a great track record.

Really, don't get pissed when you're contradicted, if you are wrong. Accept it.

I am not wrong. I just use more simple wording to try to make it easier on the less computer savvy. You all are just trying to impress eachother with your useless knowledge, and that doesn't impress me.

-Ryan

You try to use simple wording, and it's incorrect.

Hey, I have an idea. Apple has a KB article on it, let's link to it!

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106227

Usually caused by software, or rarely by hardware.

As for 3 jobs in 8 years... not sure what you do or where you live. You know the average job tenure in high tech in silicon valley is 18 months?