[I WAS the One]

First of all, this is just a rumor that somebody of my MUG community told me a couple of days ago...This guy said that the GUI will change completly, different colors, different windows and all, he was saying (and I think he has a point)that not everyone is happy with the new Panther look, and people find more difficult to understand the system now than before with Jaguar, I love panther, but lets be real, it is somehow complicated for a new user, I dont know.. What you guys think about all of this?

[schuey100]

Very unlikely, I reckon they'll just add a few new features here and there. I don't see them doing any king of GUI redesign. Anyway, Panther and Jag are almost identical

[msuper69]

I think your source if full of it.

The Aqua interface needs some refinement but it is perfectly useable. No major overhaul is necessary nor desireable.

Let the Aqua vs. Metal debate begin anew.

[Truepop]

my only gripe with panther is the damn shelf system on the finder, I thought we have the dock for stuff like that.

[Chuckit]

I see the words "debug code" in this thread's near future....

[sushiism]

hope the get rid of the stupid metal on the finder, god its horrible

[lngtones]

obligatory I like the metal finder, sidebar and all, post....

[Webscreamer]

I was hoping for a GUI like the pro apps, but I know that will not happen ;-)

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
I see the words "debug code" in this thread's near future....

I see them in the near past

I do like aqua, and find it very usable - however, something like shapeshifter built-in would be nice...

[Webscreamer]

Originally posted by Black Book:
I see them in the near past

I do like aqua, and find it very usable - however, something like shapeshifter built-in would be nice...

Keep dreamin' ;-)

[jwblase]

"Debug Code"


JB

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Black Book:
I see them in the near past

I do like aqua, and find it very usable - however, something like shapeshifter built-in would be nice...

Themes have been planned for several points in the Mac's history, notably Copland and OS8.5. Both times the idea was scrapped, but three themes were developed, and they have floated around the Web for some time. Their names were Techno (a l33t black theme), Gadget (a bright, just-for-kids sort of theme), and Drawing Board (an "artistic" theme which looked as though it had been sketched out on paper). You should be able to find screenshots of these with a Google search.

However, every time the feature has come close to release, Steve has canned it. Something about "interface consistency".

[Bobby]

I *cough*debugcode*cough* think that the current panther *cough*debugcode*cough* finder window setup *cough*debugcode*cough* is good...

*cough*debugcode*cough*


Sorry, something's *cough*debugcode*cough* caught in my *cough*debugcode*cough* throat...

[HOMBRESINIESTRO]

I don't think a "whole new GUI" will be suitable for a 10.x release. Perhaps for 10.5 or 11 (or whatever it will be called).
But I'm sure that Apple does indeed work on an aqua replacement. It will be looking so outdated in 2010.

[lngtones]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Themes have been planned for several points in the Mac's history, notably Copland and OS8.5. Both times the idea was scrapped, but three themes were developed, and they have floated around the Web for some time. Their names were Techno (a l33t black theme), Gadget (a bright, just-for-kids sort of theme), and Drawing Board (an "artistic" theme which looked as though it had been sketched out on paper). You should be able to find screenshots of these with a Google search.

However, every time the feature has come close to release, Steve has canned it. Something about "interface consistency".

Found some pictures of these themes on this page:

http://www.atpm.com/6.08/gui-junkie.shtml

Hi-Tech


Gizmo


Drawing Board

[booboo]

Originally posted by Millennium:

However, every time the feature has come close to release, Steve has canned it. Something about "interface consistency".

Typically Steve doesn't mind introducing his own (brushed metal) inconsistencies.

I want a Browser View (like metal windows) and an Aqua View (spatial Finder windows)

I want them to be separated (like they should have been at birth.) I want to select which is created by default (Apple N) I want them to be separate and not transmutable. I want the toolbar widget to open the toolbar in both views.

I'm quite happy with 3rd party theming, at this juncture, but would like the option to have less brushed metal (or none) as a System preference.

[I WAS the One]

Originally posted by lngtones:
Found some pictures of these themes on this page:

http://www.atpm.com/6.08/gui-junkie.shtml

Hi-Tech


Gizmo


Drawing Board

UGLY!!!!!!!

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
UGLY!!!!!!!

I linked Hi-Tech a lot back than.. I wouldn't mind getting it back..

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by lngtones:
Found some pictures of these themes on this page:

I've got a Mac OS 8 Presentation CD (not a presentation for the Mac OS 8 we knew, but the Copland version), and it gives peeks at the first two themes, but not the third. The third one is cool!

[RevEvs]

I used to have drawing board on OS 8/9. cant remember where i got it, but it was a very nice theme!

revs

[bborofka]

It'd be nice to have a GUI update in Tiger. Perhaps Motion offers some evidence?

[ApeInTheShell]

If you want the Aqua Finder just show all your hard drives on the desktop, click on them, and change to column view.

I see a change over the horizon but it won't have anything to do with allowing multiple themes. Apple may be accussed by others that brushed metal is not consistent but look at the way it is integrated into the operating system and applications. One cannot exist without the other and people expect it to look this way when they turn their computer back on or wake from sleep.
I have found that as soon as I collect all my themes and changers and switch back and forth i eventually end up with Aqua again because it just looks better! Now if I had Windows or Linux it would be different because the hardware doesn't match the software.

Those themes have already been redone except for the gizmo theme.
My favorites for Mac OS 9 were DSX and Liquid

[sanity assassin]

I'm one of those that thinks that the Pro apps' GUI feels kludgy compared to Aqua. There's just something about it, the way it feels, that doesn't sem as polished as qua. I don't really mean the colour scheme, but the interaction of it.

Anyway, whatever they do, I hope they just tidy a few things up in Aqua, but concentrate more on getting the important things sorted, like networking.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by eVo:
Perhaps Motion offers some evidence?

A lot of Apple's apps have a different interface. Final Cut Pro, Motion, GarageBand -- they all have non-standard interfaces, but none of that stuff has ever been incorporated into the OS, because it's just used to give the apps a distinctive look. The only case where a non-standard interface has been incorporated into the OS is QuickTime Player, which introduced brushed metal (which is strange, since there was a much more negative reaction to QuickTime Player's interface than there was to any of the others).

[spatterson]

Originally posted by sushiism:
hope the get rid of the stupid metal on the finder, god its horrible

I personally really like the metal over aqua design.

[sushiism]

Originally posted by booboo:
[B]
I want them to be separated (like they should have been at birth.) I want to select which is created by default (Apple N) I want them to be separate and not transmutable. I want the toolbar widget to open the toolbar in both views. /B]

That wouldm suit me fine, just have a checkbox in the finder prefs that says something like "spatial finder windows only" so that it will NEVER show the brushed metal window and nasty browser interface. Option to have jaguar style windows with the forwards/back but without the bloat of the sidebar and fat metal borders would be nicer too.

[paully dub]

Personally I think the brushed metal is as tacky as fake wood grained wallpaper. I think someone thought it'd be a good idea to capitalise on the succes of the titanium and aluminum machines - but c'mon. These are pixels, gimme something different.

I'm guessing the metal theme won't be around forever...

[Maflynn]

I don't mind the metal finish however I want a consistant implementation be it aqua or metal.

Mike

[hudson1]

My solution to the interface confusion, I posted some time ago, is to have a separate mechanisms for activating a spatial Finder versus a browser Finder. For instance, click on the Finder icon in the Dock and you get the file browser. Click on a drive icon on the Desktop and you get an OS 9-style spatial Finder window. Then, importantly, don't allow any transmutation between the view metaphors.

This would instantly solve the strange dilemma of having (potentially) two or more spatial Finder views of the same file -- something that was fortunately impossible under OS 9 and prior.

As for Brushed metal, I kinda like it.

[timmerk]

For everyone that keeps bringing up "debug code" - get over it. You dragged the joke on for long enough - it hasn't been funny for years.

[TheSpaz]

I can't stand metal and I'm getting pretty sick of Aqua as well. What if they had 2 themes... think about this... just like Aqua and Graphite... but way different. What if the OS had the chance to be Aqua, Graphite, or Pro. I would love to see a Pro version of Mac OS X.

That would be cool if they sold a Mac OS X Pro Edition that was just like that... It could give power users all the pro features they would need and leave out all the simple colorful junk and give that to the novices. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for Mac OS X Pro.

I mean, I consider myself a Power User and these little blue folders and bright widgets and stripes and plastic and Aqua embarass me from time to time as if I'm using an OS that was made for kids. Do any of you ever feel like the OS X interface is kinda big and bulky? I'll show you... this is what bugs me

1. Metal windows... lame and I don't like them
2. Menu bar is bulky with HUGE fonts... why do we need such big and bulky fonts... I can read just fine thank you very much.
3. Colors... after a while the colors just get annoying... big bright blue gumdrop controls and Graphite doesn't make it much better (although it tones it down a bit)
4. Icon spacing... wow... what ever happened to saving space on our precious screens
5. Drop shadows... although it's a neat effect... come on... why do we need drop shadows on EVERYTHING (especially desktop icon labels)
6. Lots and lots of animations... same thing... it's cool at first... but, then it just gets tiring... seeing the sheet slide out isn't cool anymore, I could live without it.
7. The Finder icon in Panther is HORRID looking. It's soo cartoony (which is unlike Apple to do this since all the rest of the icons are beautifully rendered in 3D.) The Panther Finder icon looks like a 5 minute Photoshop job.
8. Press CMD-Tab and BLAM! HUGE ICONS IN YOUR FACE... I wish there was a way to customize this.
9. System fonts are far too big
10. You have to admit... Apple makes some pretty nice software, but don't you wish they could make software with more Power features in them? For example, iChat... I use iChat all the time, but WHY IN THE WORLD can't Apple put in a simple Profile feature? How hard could it be to do? Why can't we have auto response away messages and why do we have to hover our cursor over the buddy name to see their whole away message?
11. Some things can be SOO simple that looking for a way to do a certain task can take forever and you never realize it's been there the whole time (I can't think of a specific example, but it's happened to me before)
12. I'm the only one who uses my computer... and I'm SICK of typing in my user password for EVERY FREAKIN THING I DO.

That's my list so far... there's a lot of things that bug me about Apple... but, I can't help but still love them... trust me... If I made a list of things that bugged me about windows... this post would be pages long.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by TheSpaz:
I can't stand metal and I'm getting pretty sick of Aqua as well. What if they had 2 themes... think about this... just like Aqua and Graphite... but way different. What if the OS had the chance to be Aqua, Graphite, or Pro. I would love to see a Pro version of Mac OS X.

That would be cool if they sold a Mac OS X Pro Edition that was just like that... It could give power users all the pro features they would need and leave out all the simple colorful junk and give that to the novices. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for Mac OS X Pro.

Perhaps this site would be more to your liking.

2. Menu bar is bulky with HUGE fonts... why do we need such big and bulky fonts... I can read just fine thank you very much.

This is an issue known as accessibility. You may have very good eyes, but not everyone does. The text is only 14 point, anyway; that's all of four pixels more than the 10-point menus of the previous system. A measly 1/18th of an inch's worth of difference. What's so "HUGE" about that?

4. Icon spacing... wow... what ever happened to saving space on our precious screens

OK, you've got me here. The grid does seem to be much too loose. It might be good for 128x128 icons, but you'd think Apple could make it proportional to the icon size.

5. Drop shadows... although it's a neat effect... come on... why do we need drop shadows on EVERYTHING (especially desktop icon labels)

To ensure that one thing stands out from the next.

6. Lots and lots of animations... same thing... it's cool at first... but, then it just gets tiring... seeing the sheet slide out isn't cool anymore, I could live without it.

It's called visual feedback, and is an important part of user interface design. It's "cool", yes, but that's not the only reason it is there. If something can be cool and functional at the same time, why shouldn't it be?

7. The Finder icon in Panther is HORRID looking. It's soo cartoony (which is unlike Apple to do this since all the rest of the icons are beautifully rendered in 3D.) The Panther Finder icon looks like a 5 minute Photoshop job.

Given that this is the Mac OS logo, I don't see much of a problem. I'll admit to preferring the Jaguar rendering myself, though.

8. Press CMD-Tab and BLAM! HUGE ICONS IN YOUR FACE... I wish there was a way to customize this.

I don't. Again, this is called accessibility.

9. System fonts are far too big

Given that all of the system's controls are the same size as they were in Platinum -the original Aqua controls were larger in DP3, but they were resized after complaints from Carbon developers well before even the Public Beta- I fail to see how this can be possible. One or two points' worth of difference in button labels maybe (keep in mind that the text still has to fit in an original Platinum control of the same size), but given that all the text in a label must fit on both systems, I don't see how it could work there.

10. You have to admit... Apple makes some pretty nice software, but don't you wish they could make software with more Power features in them? For example, iChat... I use iChat all the time, but WHY IN THE WORLD can't Apple put in a simple Profile feature? How hard could it be to do?

More than you might think, actually.

11. Some things can be SOO simple that looking for a way to do a certain task can take forever and you never realize it's been there the whole time (I can't think of a specific example, but it's happened to me before)

Are you criticizing the OS for being too easy to use? That's not one I've ever heard before.

12. I'm the only one who uses my computer... and I'm SICK of typing in my user password for EVERY FREAKIN THING I DO.

Which only proves that the computer should not be trusting you enough, because you don't seem to understand the basics of security, or even the fact that even if you are the only person using your computer, you are not the only user on your machine. Frankly, the password dialog isn't strong enough; there needs to be a non-interruptible keey sequence before you enter the password to ensure that the dialog can't be faked. Even Windows does this (they use Ctrl-Alt-Delete), though they make the mistake of allowing it to be turned off.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by TheSpaz:
I can't stand metal and I'm getting pretty sick of Aqua as well.

Even though I mentioned I like the metal look, I agree with you, I wouldn't mind a face lift. At least we have SS to change the look of OSX, even if Apple doesn't

Mike

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by timmerk:
For everyone that keeps bringing up "debug code" - get over it. You dragged the joke on for long enough - it hasn't been funny for years.

That's why its funny.

[OzarkMtn]

Originally posted by timmerk:
For everyone that keeps bringing up "debug code" - get over it. You dragged the joke on for long enough - it hasn't been funny for years.

Instead of it being more "snappier", do you think it will be more nimble?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by booboo:
Typically Steve doesn't mind introducing his own (brushed metal) inconsistencies.

Oh, certainly he doesn't mind introducing his own inconsistencies. But every time he axed themes -and it was always him personally, in fact- he said it was a matter of interface consistency.

Yes, it's hypocritical. That's Steve Jobs for you.

[MindFad]

Something like those red warning windows from OS 9 might be a nice addition to the GUI.

For example:

[msuper69]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Something like those red warning windows from OS 9 might be a nice addition to the GUI.

For example:

Pink? gawd I would hope not!

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Millennium:
This is an issue known as accessibility. You may have very good eyes, but not everyone does. The text is only 14 point, anyway; that's all of four pixels more than the 10-point menus of the previous system. A measly 1/18th of an inch's worth of difference. What's so "HUGE" about that?

Indeed. You have no idea how many older people (friends of my parents) I had to help with computer-related problems back when I was in high school that would have their monitors set to 640x480 or something ridiculously small like that so that they could read the text in OS 9.

[MartiNZ]

If they added something like: The trash contains 4 items taking up 13.6MB of space - are you sure you want to permanently delete these?

And then an option to View Item Details along with the Yes and No.

Then they could pretty much make the dialogue whatever colour they wanted and I wouldn't be complaining ... much .

[:dragonflypro:]

A pro level theme/variation on the same tone as Motion would please me to no end.

The chance of getting decent palettes in PS or so forth with the Motion styled ones seems less likely though. Much more workable, but not likely.

T

[arekkusu]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The text is only 14 point, anyway; that's all of four pixels more than the 10-point menus of the previous system.

The Aqua menu font is 13 point.
All previous Mac OS versions used 12 point.

Given that all of the system's controls are the same size as they were in Platinum

This is true (Apple did scale back the larger widgets after complaints from developers)... except for a few things like, oh, window borders (See: Metal resize corner) and, yeah, all text. One point may not make a lot of difference vertically, but it makes a big difference in a paragraph worth of text in an alert. If you had hundreds of dialogs in your Classic app (thousands of text fields), that could have been a LOT of resizing work to get proper Aqua appearance on 9 and X during Carbonization. I know, I did it.

[Superchicken]

We need a vector drawn OS

Think about it, entirely resolution independent! You wouldn't even need to change your resolution to fit more or less on the screen, no one could complain about window boarders cause you could just shrink or expand em.

[hyperb0le]

Originally posted by MindFad:
[B]Something like those red warning windows from OS 9 might be a nice addition to the GUI.

For example:
<snip>

Hmm... I think alert windows could use a separate style, but I don't think a window color change is in order. There was an ad that ran in a bunch of Macworlds a long time ago that showed a window whose titlebar has a yellow striped diagonal pattern (ala a construction sign) instead of pinstripes. Maybe Apple could provide a style like that for developers.

[z|gzag]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
We need a vector drawn OS

Think about it, entirely resolution independent! You wouldn't even need to change your resolution to fit more or less on the screen, no one could complain about window boarders cause you could just shrink or expand em.

BINGO!

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by z|gzag:
BINGO!

Windows Longhorn (which won't be out in a final version before 2006) [i]is[/i| completely resolution independant. So it would be a good idea to integrate that into Mac OS X [i]before[/i| Longhorn is released.

[HOMBRESINIESTRO]

This is definetely needed for 10.4 (resolution independency), as I already mentioned in the Lets talk Tiger thread.

[cambro]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
We need a vector drawn OS

Absolutely.....and just imagine the power of shift-ctrl-option-4 then!

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
First of all, this is just a rumor that somebody of my MUG community told me a couple of days ago...This guy said that the GUI will change completly, different colors, different windows and all, he was saying (and I think he has a point)that not everyone is happy with the new Panther look, and people find more difficult to understand the system now than before with Jaguar, I love panther, but lets be real, it is somehow complicated for a new user, I dont know.. What you guys think about all of this?

My main gripe is that if you're using a program, and you want to run a different program, there are several steps involved. Since I'm constantly switching back and forth this is a huge annoyance.

You're in iMovie. You want to switch to itunes, but it's not in your dock. so you click the finder, click applications, find itunes and start it. this doesn't seem like a pain but I have over 110 programs in my applications folder. It's even more of a pain if you want to use a utility. I wish there was a customizable applications menu that you could use that was system-wide. I've put in my 2 cents of apple on this already many times.

I would like to see system-wide theme support. I seem to remember something about this a while ago, and how Steve supposedly didn't want to do it because it makes the interface non-consistent... but why does anyone at apple care what interface you use? This is one area where Windows XP rocks the mac - you can change almost any gui element to look how you want it to, whether it be fonts, scrollbar size, whatever.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
I seem to remember something about this a while ago, and how Steve supposedly didn't want to do it because it makes the interface non-consistent... but why does anyone at apple care what interface you use?

I'd guess tech support mainly and ease-of-use. If you sit down if front of a mac, it's the same (ignoring OS differences) no matter where you are. You can't say that for Windows, even the same OS.