[OzarkMtn]

Based on what is coming out of the WWDC today, there is nothing that really gets me excited. Apple is just putting trinkets & trash into the OS. I would prefer that they focus on optimizing the OS to run like a bat out of hell on the G5 and leave basically everything they have announced today to third party developers.

If I was a developer and spent the money to attend this WWDC, I would be at the front door asking for a refund.

All in all, pretty weak... Not worth the wait to '05

[Busemann]

Originally posted by OzarkMtn:
I would prefer that they focus on optimizing the OS to run like a bat out of hell on the G5

Then you obviously have overlooked this then

[:dragonflypro:]

Then you obviously do not understand the merits of a BSD kernel upgrade, 64bit VM, META search capability, what H.264 will do for video, how cool Core Image and Core Video are and how much they could speed up the UI, how an automated task editor with access to OS level hooks is (read, no need for multiple third party configs: Quicksilver/Butler & to a degree Launchbar), etc etc, and I imagine real developers have plenty to be happy about.

T

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Busemann:
Then you obviously have overlooked this then

That's not going to do anything for speed, except if you need more then 4GB of RAM.

So what exaclty have I overlooked when I don't get excited by 64bit ?

-t

[CatOne]

Originally posted by OzarkMtn:
Based on what is coming out of the WWDC today, there is nothing that really gets me excited. Apple is just putting trinkets & trash into the OS. I would prefer that they focus on optimizing the OS to run like a bat out of hell on the G5 and leave basically everything they have announced today to third party developers.

If I was a developer and spent the money to attend this WWDC, I would be at the front door asking for a refund.

All in all, pretty weak... Not worth the wait to '05

It's pretty damn fast now... more optimizing... not sure of the merits as hardware will continue to get faster. The hell with the Pismo folks, in 3 years the machines will be dead. Plus it's not going to get any slower than as-is.

The search is AWESOME. SO useful, you have no idea.

[sideus]

Don't know about you guys, but OS X screams on my 1GHz PB.

New iChat is going to kick butt!

[K++]

Originally posted by turtle777:
That's not going to do anything for speed, except if you need more then 4GB of RAM.

So what exaclty have I overlooked when I don't get excited by 64bit ?

-t

Core Image and Core Video, as well as the obvious optimizations they put into every revision. This version provides a multiptude of new ways for developers to help users, from the meta descriptions for filetypes owned by a program to the ability to plug into every single one of the announced new features. Don't get excited, fine, but don't try to tell us that there is nothing new or special here, becuase if you took the time to read up on the technologies introduced, and more importantly the ability that developers ahve to plugin and extend them you would know that there is plenty to be all excited about.

[Turias]

Originally posted by OzarkMtn:
If I was a developer and spent the money to attend this WWDC, I would be at the front door asking for a refund.

From what you said, it doesn't sound like you're a developer. The news given is pretty exciting to developers. Plus, most people don't pay for the keynote, they pay for the hours of sessions and one-on-one time with experts at Apple.

[ratlater]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
Then you obviously do not understand the merits of a BSD kernel upgrade, 64bit VM, META search capability, what H.264 will do for video, how cool Core Image and Core Video are and how much they could speed up the UI, how an automated task editor with access to OS level hooks is (read, no need for multiple third party configs: Quicksilver/Butler & to a degree Launchbar), etc etc, and I imagine real developers have plenty to be happy about.

T

Very well said. From an underlying tech perspective Tiger looks amazing. Open sync API, open search API, open dashboard API, plus the core video/image goodness. This is a developers wet dream. If you aren't excited about Tiger then I guess Panther is all you need. If you are happy now or don't care about great searching and smart folders and fancy new video technologies then you probably shouldn't upgrade.

-matt

[larkost]

Originally posted by Turias:
From what you said, it doesn't sound like you're a developer. The news given is pretty exciting to developers. Plus, most people don't pay for the keynote, they pay for the hours of sessions and one-on-one time with experts at Apple.

I agree that the keynote is not the reason people go to WWDC. It is all the sessions, the contact with developers from all over the world (both a lot of fun, and there are a lot of really bright people waling the floor), and all the fun of the event (Apple Campus Beer Bash, Apple Masters Night, Stump-the-Experts, Movie Night, etc...)!

I really wish I was there this year, and have made myself a small promise that I will go next year (this year is a couple of weeks in Germany for a wedding).

But... "one-on-one time with experts at Apple"... never seen that (except for cornering one in the hall... and the "hired muscle" don't take too kindly to that...)

[yukon]

I don't have a new G5, the 64bit optimizations doesn't effect me. Dashboard, I've never needed Konfabulator, so I don't know whether I want that. RSS in Safari, I use neither often. Automator, I don't know what the summary is saying, dunno. iChat AV conferencing, don't use iChat or own an iSight. Core Image/Video, again, I don't have a new G5, and since old "Mac Edition" videocards are often the price of the highest available on the PC, I'd rather upgrade my PC's GeForce4 MX, I won't be able to use Core Image/Video. Sync services, dunno what that's about, might help with my Palm. A new "BSD Kernel Upgrade", I'm sure that's a new version of XNU, dunno what the differences are. The Apple UNIX utilities to preserve resource forks, um, helpful I suppose, makes life easier working in CLI on a Mac....

Not much new for me, kinda like Jaguar way back, I waited a long time before upgrading. The only thing I was looking forward to was a new filesystem. Much of the new stuff seems a bit gimicky, but even the lower level improvements don't effect me much. Here's to hoping that this is just a bit of a preview, or at least that others will enjoy it much more than I will.

[Turias]

Originally posted by larkost:
But... "one-on-one time with experts at Apple"... never seen that (except for cornering one in the hall... and the "hired muscle" don't take too kindly to that...)

You just gotta know how to sneak up quickly.

They're actually quite nice and quite helpful. I had plenty of 1-on-1 time with one of the main coders of iPhoto, the person behind Software Update, and some of the main XCode developers. One even gave me a tour of the inside of the Apple Campus when I was there.

[BZ]

Well, I have spent a few minutes looking over the Tiger pages and here is why I will be plopping down my money.. ($129/$149?)

- Smart Everthing. This is amazing. Smart Addressbook, Smart Folders, Smart Emails AND (AND AND AND) an SDK for developers to build Smart Everything.

- .Mac Sync... Syncing is my life. More is better. Easier is better and again is opening up the SDK. iSync EVERYTHING!

- 64 Bit. More is better.

- iChat AV+Extreme. Faster? Better? Free conference calls.

The thing I was really waiting for which is now almost a year missing is "Home on the iPod".

I would also have liked to see them do better stuff with the dock. It is amazing they are just neglecting it as the features of the Dock have not changed in two years (10.2?)

BZ

[kcmac]

The Mac Observer posted with their live keynote coverage that the hall was excited.

This is a developers conference. If they get excited, then I am excited to wait and see what they can do with the new features of Tiger. And with the release next year, Apple is giving them time to utilize the new features.

Of course, I am already thrilled to see the new search technology, automator, iChat, etc.

[teszeract]

Still looking through Apples website... but


OMG!!

WOW!!


All my faves are there! Launchbar, Quickeys, and the concept that I've been wanting since forever ... easy access utilities.


OMG!! WOW!!

[teszeract]

Originally posted by CatOne:
The hell with the Pismo folks, in 3 years the machines will be dead.

Hey, thanks for mentioning me.

[real]

Originally Posted by OzarkMtn

Based on what is coming out of the WWDC today, there is nothing that really gets me excited. Apple is just putting trinkets & trash into the OS. I would prefer that they focus on optimizing the OS to run like a bat out of hell on the G5 and leave basically everything they have announced today to third party developers.

If I was a developer and spent the money to attend this WWDC, I would be at the front door asking for a refund.

All in all, pretty weak... Not worth the wait to '05

Just wanted to know if you still think Tiger is bloatware. Just Curious. Dont take this the wrong way just wanted to see if you have changed your mind.

REAL

[alphasubzero949]

I think it is. Matter of fact, Apple's comparison page is a joke.

I should get Tiger because Panther doesn't have a built-in inline PDF viewer? Because it has a dictionary that I could have easily called from one of the default Sherlock channels? By the way, Panther's ability to "view" PDFs "only" is misleading. What about that "Save as PDF" button that pops up when you print? Or the preview? Isn't that technically creating a PDF? You get the idea.


Instead of tacking on more gee-whiz features, they should concentrate their efforts on bettering the things a good number of us have complained about in Panther. Here's my list of gripes:

- No advanced GUI configuration for ipfw.
- Slow Finder window resizing.
- Half-assed FTP support in the Finder.
- SLOW network access, especially when moving around a large number of files. Try it. ESPECIALLY when connected over Airport.
- WebDAV performance (local syncing seemed to hide the real issue).
- Better label implementation (how do you know which one is labeled and the other is highlighted without the need for a circle to tell you, especially when the highlight and label colors are similar?
- Getting rid of pinstripes entirely.
- The ability for Mail.app to save multiple .Mac IMAP profiles when different SMTP servers are required (especially for those on DSL).
- Anacron built in instead of having to download it or rely on third party solutions to perform cron tasks if we don't leave our machines on 24h.
- Restricted printer setup access for limited users...especially in labs where students change printer configurations because they don't know how to restart a job.
- Making some of the items in the Safari debug menu part of the visible options and implementing them better (such as remembering user agent)

Those are some of my gripes that have come to mind that do not seem to be addressed by Tiger based on the hype within Apple's pages on Tiger; definitely not an exhaustive list.

[RonnieoftheRose]

I'm getting Tiger but there are things I don't see myself needing now but might need later. What I need now:

-More speed and responsiveness. Don't like it when text input slows down because of CPU load.
-Better video acceleration for editing.
-Dashboard is a good way of bringing up stock quotes and the calculator quickly.
-Spotlight is an excellent way of tracking Emails and files connected to different projects. I can have smart folders for each project.

I know I'll never use Automator but can't deny that others will. iChat, just the sound and text. I think video conferencing is cheesy. I don't want anyone to see me looking scruffy when I'm at home lounging

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

I think it is. Matter of fact, Apple's comparison page is a joke.

I should get Tiger because Panther doesn't have a built-in inline PDF viewer? Because it has a dictionary that I could have easily called from one of the default Sherlock channels? By the way, Panther's ability to "view" PDFs "only" is misleading. What about that "Save as PDF" button that pops up when you print? Or the preview? Isn't that technically creating a PDF? You get the idea.

If you actually look at the page you linked to, the bit that says "View only" for Panther is talking about encrypted PDFs.

Oh, and you complain about minor features like the inline PDF viewer showing up in the feature list amongst the bigger stuff, but you want them to make a big feature out of removing pinstripes?

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Oh, and you complain about minor features like the inline PDF viewer showing up in the feature list amongst the bigger stuff, but you want them to make a big feature out of removing pinstripes?

I personally find the pinstripes annoying (since 10.0), and so do plenty of others (I know I'm not the only one on this board or in the Mac universe). I shouldn't have to seek 3rd party hacks to ditch them (e.g. SmoothStripes) because of Uncle Steve's "my way or the highway" attitude.

Pinstripes were cool when 10.0 was around, and the minimization of them in Panther's menu bar - while a welcome step - was just enough to shut the critics up. I'm glad to see them gone from the menu bar entirely in Tiger, but why not take it a step further? There is no need to continue to have them around elsewhere.

[CharlesS]

Yeah, but don't you see the irony in criticizing Apple for putting the inline PDF viewer in the feature list, but then wanting "no pinstripes" to be in there?

[moodymonster]

I can see myself using Automator, a lot.

Spotlight is going to be really cool - lots of clients and stuff, being able to get the computer to do the work of presenting all the info to me like Spotlight will will be very useful

Plus all the other bits and bobs - the graphics parts - who knows where 3rd party devs will take that - expos� is already so integrated into my "workflow", if I go on a machine that doesn't have it, it throws me. It has become part of my mental image of the computer.

I can see Spotlight changing the way I see files stored and the desktop metaphor being expanded by the possibilities Core Image gives devs (and Apple).

We'll see what happens�

[goMac]

Tiger is bloatware? You must be joking. If anything, Tiger largely reduced the bloat of OS X. The multimedia API's of Carbon and Cocoa have been brought under QTKit. QuickTime has dumped all of its legacy drawing and now works cleanly under OpenGL. Quartz 2D Extreme, while not enabled by default, draws everything insanely fast and clean. CoreImage is also very compact and clean.

If providing very important next generation tools for developers to use in their apps is bloatware, I'm very surprised. Tiger is not an OS built for consumers. Spotlight and Dashboard are very nice, I use them daily, and they don't get in my way at all. That said, Tiger is an OS for developers. It gives us many new tools to do very cool things in our programs. Many new programs will require Tiger. And in my opinion, refining and adding next generation API's is not bloat.

[CaptainHaddock]

Smart folders is going to be the feature that makes me upgrade. I'm also looking forward to a faster interface, Quartz 2D Extreme, CoreImage, CoreAudio, and improved font handling.

I couldn't care less about Dashboard, and the continuing disintegration of the OS X interface will be a peeve of mine.

[JLL]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

I personally find the pinstripes annoying (since 10.0), and so do plenty of others (I know I'm not the only one on this board or in the Mac universe). I shouldn't have to seek 3rd party hacks to ditch them (e.g. SmoothStripes) because of Uncle Steve's "my way or the highway" attitude.

Pinstripes were cool when 10.0 was around, and the minimization of them in Panther's menu bar - while a welcome step - was just enough to shut the critics up. I'm glad to see them gone from the menu bar entirely in Tiger, but why not take it a step further? There is no need to continue to have them around elsewhere.

Even if they remove them, many will still use themes.

[Catfish_Man]

I think a lot of people (not you goMac, or CaptainHaddock) are judging speed a bit prematurely. "64 bitness" is not the only optimization (if it can even be called an optimization). Neither is Quartz 2D Extreme. Neither is the new compiler. Nor even the improved asycnhronous io or kernel locking. There's a lot of cleanup, a lot of refinement... maybe it'll pay off for you, maybe it won't (some people have had 10.3 slow things down for them, so I can't rule it out that 10.4 would as well).

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by OzarkMtn

... I would be at the front door asking for a refund.

...

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[starman]

This is a very interesting topic since I was about to post something similar.

How many times do you buy an OS and only use a fracton of its features?

You can't call Tiger bloatware. If you don't like it, install System 6 on a Mac Plus and go away. When you realize that there's a lot you can't do in System 6, you might realize why operating systems grow the way they do. Well, maybe SOMEONE will port Firefox to System 6 .

The fact is, as a Mac user and developer, there are a LOT of good things to come out of WWDC, all have been mentioned above. I wish I was going this year (I still might). $1200 is a LOT of money to spend when you have a family and your corporate office in CA might as well send people from down the road then deal with flying someone out from NJ. My only regret from going 2 years ago is not bringing my camera at the Apple Bash since I was told they weren't allowed, but they were

The best thing that I saw happen at WWDC: At one of the XCode classes, someone mentioned that there was a bug in XCode and showed it to the developer. He reproduced it and fixed it on the spot. That was friggin' cool.

Anyway, not everyone could be excited about EVERY aspect of the new OS. iChat's new features are cool, but I don't NEED the new capabilities. The RSS feed in Safari is very nice. It's too bad they couldn't put it into older versions in the last few months.

I'd really like to know what you want to see in the OS rather than vague references to speed.

Mike

[LaGow]

Originally Posted by starman

I'd really like to know what you want to see in the OS rather than vague references to speed.

Mike

You mean other than a less clunky, more responsive Finder? (OTOH, I'm writing this using Ink!)

[Edit: paired down the quote]

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by starman

You can't call Tiger bloatware. If you don't like it, install System 6 on a Mac Plus and go away.

Isn't bloatware sluggish and full of useless features? Tiger is in fact faster (http://www.mactouch.com/systeme/doss...article78.html) and has many more useful features! If you don't like it, then don't buy it!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by starman

The best thing that I saw happen at WWDC: At one of the XCode classes, someone mentioned that there was a bug in XCode and showed it to the developer. He reproduced it and fixed it on the spot. That was friggin' cool.

Yes, indeed. That is friggin' cool.

Originally Posted by goMac

Tiger is bloatware? You must be joking. If anything, Tiger largely reduced the bloat of OS X. The multimedia API's of Carbon and Cocoa have been brought under QTKit. QuickTime has dumped all of its legacy drawing and now works cleanly under OpenGL. Quartz 2D Extreme, while not enabled by default, draws everything insanely fast and clean. CoreImage is also very compact and clean.

Shall we say this is confirmed then?

[Superchicken]

I'm looking forward to Tiger soooooo much... That said, anyone else thinking Preview + Finder is going too be a bit like a light weight combo comparable to iPhoto 5? I'm still thinking of buy iLife in the future, though perhaps not this year's we'll have to see. But either way, the fact that Preview will be able to edit colour and what not... that combined with Photoshop for higher end touch ups could better work with the way that I've personally been organizing my photos... though I know it'll be useful for more than just photos... anyway, I think Apple is adding lots of great features, while still not bloating most of their apps. I think Steve has been on the prowl for bloat, and that's one thing Apple is avoiding in just about every sense... now if only Adobe could start doing that!

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by sideus

New iChat is going to kick butt!

Kicking butt would be good if I could only find someone else who uses iChat/AIM. Every bloody person in Canada ONLY uses MSN Messenger.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I think Steve has been on the prowl for bloat

...and there he found it, sitting in a dark alley, unloved by most users.

"Come here," he said. "I'll call you Dashboard, and make you real pretty."

[Kate]

"....Quartz 2D Extreme, while not enabled by default...."


soooooooo, you mean, the most wanted feature ( by me that seems) is NOT in yet? They made a big thing out of this during the conference and now it is disabled? So we'll have to wait for 10.4.1..........or is it more like waiting for 10.5 then?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Kate

"....Quartz 2D Extreme, while not enabled by default...."

soooooooo, you mean, the most wanted feature ( by me that seems) is NOT in yet? They made a big thing out of this during the conference and now it is disabled? So we'll have to wait for 10.4.1..........or is it more like waiting for 10.5 then?

Yep. This is my exact question.

For me, the number 1 most interesting feature of Tiger is Quartz 2D Extreme, but if the rumours are true it looks like we'll have to wait a while longer for it. How much longer is the big question.

I hear stories that turning it on causes instability on some machines, and weird video glitches. It seems like Apple has a lot of driver writing ahead of them, and even when they finish it, one should expect some serious tweaking going on for 3rd party apps.

Mind you, it's kinda moot for me, since neither of my Macs meet Q2DE's hardware requirements anyway. I just hope Q2DE will be enabled in time for when I get my new PowerBook in the fall.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Kicking butt would be good if I could only find someone else who uses iChat/AIM. Every bloody person in Canada ONLY uses MSN Messenger.

I know your pain. That said with Jabber's gateways apparently iChat will be able to work with MSN...

That said, I really don't mind using Adium for it either...

[sarcastro]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Kicking butt would be good if I could only find someone else who uses iChat/AIM. Every bloody person in Canada ONLY uses MSN Messenger.

Yeah, what's the deal with that? I thought it was just a Vancouver phenomenon. I'm a little horrified to find out that it is a nationwide epidemic (or is it a pandemic?).

[leperkuhn]

anyone else loath the current version of iChat?

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by sarcastro

Yeah, what's the deal with that? I thought it was just a Vancouver phenomenon. I'm a little horrified to find out that it is a nationwide epidemic (or is it a pandemic?).

Three reasons:
1) AOL Instant Messenger is ugly as hell and infested with advertisements.
2) MSN Messenger for PCs is an excellent, full-featured application with many capabilities. People actually enjoy using it and are loathe to switch to an instant messenger they see as inferior.
3) AOL isn't a popular ISP in Canada.

My PC-using friends and clients are fanatically loyal to MSN Messenger. They think it's the cat's ass.

[sarcastro]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Three reasons:
1) AOL Instant Messenger is ugly as hell and infested with advertisements.
2) MSN Messenger for PCs is an excellent, full-featured application with many capabilities. People actually enjoy using it and are loathe to switch to an instant messenger they see as inferior.
3) AOL isn't a popular ISP in Canada.

My PC-using friends and clients are fanatically loyal to MSN Messenger. They think it's the cat's ass.

Fair enough I suppose. But the strange thing is that ICQ used to be bees knees and then all of a sudden the MSN craze was sweeping the city (and apparently the nation).

I wasn't trying to disparage any MSN users. I use it too. I was just intrigued by its nationwide ubiquity.

[Kerrigan]

It does seem like Tiger is heavy on the gimmicky eye candy, but I'm looking forward to it in any case.

[stevesnj]

Same here...17" 1.5GB RAM...getting the Seagate 100gb 7,400 rpm and another 1GB RAM...dddrrroooolll!!!!

[Superchicken]

AOL = America Online.

If they would have just switched to a name like "Maple Corp" "Canada Online" "Great White Web" etc, they could easily have had the Canadian IM market. That said they stuck with a brand that is VERY limited to one country for pulling in people. Yahoo never really picked up here, the only choice was MSN.
That said I think AIM aside from the adds was perfect at around version 4.5, after that they just added more bloat and crap. MSN still in my opinion is not as good as it should be either. The fact that you have to use e-mail addies, generally hotmail addies is stupid, though effective for keeping hotmail usage up. That said, if Google came out with an IM client that beat MSN's pants off I would not be surprised if in less than a year it overtook MSN. All the geeks would switch, and eventually things would take off.

But yah... sadly MSN in Canada isn't even callled MSN messenger, it's just called Messenger because nobody realizes there's more than one IM app.

DAMB YOU AOL! They really should be ruling this market. Actually what I'd love to see would be iChat or something like it for Windows, or rather iChat ripping off the good bits of Adium...

[Eug Wanker]

I dunno, my Windows friends use Yahoo Messenger, and I'm in Canada too.

[Hi I'm Ben]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

AOL = America Online.

Which is sad that canadians think that way. Since Microsoft is a BIGGER AMERICAN company. That's okay, for a country that watches sports like curling bad taste is expected. My canadian girlfriend and all her mixed up canadian friends all use MSN. It's worthless, they have names like 500 characters long that are nothing short of their life story. I just couldn't get into the MSN vibe. I hate hotmail.

[Kristoff]

Hotmail rocked back in the day.

I had an account pre-borg-ascimilation--and I still have it.

[Zimphire]

Ok, About the whole iChat thing.

How easy will it be to get people on your MSN/Yahoo etc chatlist in iChat and talk to them?

I don't care about voice, or video chat, I just wanna be able to text message.

Will this be possible?

And if so, how easily?

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I dunno, my Windows friends use Yahoo Messenger, and I'm in Canada too.

Only Torontonians use Yahoo! Messenger because the radiation leaking from Pickering has damaged their brains.



Seriously, I don't think I've ever met someone who uses Yahoo! Messenger.