[macdaemon]

I know that most of you don't really care about it, but please support and sign petition because we really care about Apple expansion on the Russian market, so please support us.
http://www.petitiononline.com/rumacosx/petition.html
--
macdaemon aka MACALEX

[PER3]

Why don't you just use the Russian localisation update for 10.3.3 on www.apple.ru? Or are you talking about complete market-Apple-in-Russia strategy?

[Hash]

learn English.

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by PER3:
Why don't you just use the Russian localisation update for 10.3.3 on www.apple.ru? Or are you talking about complete market-Apple-in-Russia strategy?

I suppose it will be a good thing if Apple will understand that potential market for them in Russia is huge and will support localization of their OS and other software for Macs, because most of the normal Russian users prefer to use native language software.
We all know about 10.3.3 but it's not up to date first, and second we need official releases from Apple, not from some Apple IMC.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
I suppose it will be a good thing if Apple will understand that potential market for them in Russia is huge and will support localization of their OS and other software for Macs, because most of the normal Russian users prefer to use native language software.
We all know about 10.3.3 but it's not up to date first, and second we need official releases from Apple, not from some Apple IMC.

How huge is the potential market for them in Russia? Seriously. How many people currently use another language of OSX, and how many people would switch to OSX if only Apple did an in-house localization? This is a serious question. It's not enough to know that the market's huge; how huge is what we need to know.

For that matter, what does it matter if Apple makes it instead of someone contracted to do the job? It is true that this IMC needs to get off its rear and keep up to date, but why must everything be made by Apple itself?

[Hash]

waste of money and time for market less than 1% of brazil and with no future, except for virii writers. All viruses come from there. So maybe they need localization to write mac viruses.

[slava]

Originally posted by Hash:
waste of money and time for market less than 1% of brazil and with no future, except for virii writers. All viruses come from there. So maybe they need localization to write mac viruses.

Hash, don't be so arrogant. The userbase may not be as big, but definitely not smaller than, say, Dannish market, which got the localization right away.

[slava]

Originally posted by PER3:
Why don't you just use the Russian localisation update for 10.3.3 on www.apple.ru? Or are you talking about complete market-Apple-in-Russia strategy?

The petition talks about the localization that comes with the OSX update. The localizations on apple.ru usually lag 3 to 8 months after the system updates... if they ever happen.

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by Millennium:
How huge is the potential market for them in Russia? Seriously. How many people currently use another language of OSX, and how many people would switch to OSX if only Apple did an in-house localization? This is a serious question. It's not enough to know that the market's huge; how huge is what we need to know.

For that matter, what does it matter if Apple makes it instead of someone contracted to do the job? It is true that this IMC needs to get off its rear and keep up to date, but why must everything be made by Apple itself?

I worked in the Apple distributor company on the Russian Far East and Siberia in 1994-1995 and we sold 150-300 computers a month, today sales much lower, under 50 computers per month on the Far East and Siberia region, before on the Far East and Siberia Apple had 9 dealers, today just one small company based in Vladivostok. One of the main reason why just regular people don't buy Macs is that people think that all software is in English and most of them think that this Macs just made for Designers, of course the price is play the main reason, but in Russia at the moment enough wealthy people who would like to have such a piece of art in their modern house, but they don't know English and then it's a become huge problem. I should say that potential market in Russia for Apple is about 5-10% from the whole computer market in Russia, at the moment it's under 1%.

[PER3]

Originally posted by Hash:
learn English.

Learn some manners.

[tomppu]

I for one think that OS X should be localized to so many languages as humanly possible. There is even localization for us finnish people (marketshare can't be above 3%, in a 5 million people country that ain't much) so why not include russian? I can think of so many people who wouldn't be using any OS if it were not localized. Lets not give Windows advantage over us on this.

Signed,
tomppu

[Hash]

I don't see any merits of limitless localization, especially for such small and insignificant markets as russian but I can see how this will increase overall costs and especially add to OS development costs without really increasing Mac share, sales of Mac software and Mac peripherals, since everyone knows that those bear-populated lands are full of software pirates and virii writers because of general lawlessness and mafia control over authorities, so no Mac software sales can increase there, but on the contrary, we will witness flood of pirated mac software from Russia. So, yes, I am against increasing Mac presence in Russia and would be more than happy to leave all those rich looking for new toys they cannot handle neither in English nor in Russian to fiddle with their pirated copies of XP.

Perhaps you could find reasons other then selling a few mac units to mafia clans and oil oligarghs per month (since all other, average people seem to be burdened with their own everyday survival problems rather than thiking about buying latest G5) and share them with us.

[slava]

Originally posted by Hash:
I don't see any merits of limitless localization, especially for such small and insignificant markets as russian but I can see how this will increase overall costs and especially add to OS development costs without really increasing Mac share, sales of Mac software and Mac peripherals, since everyone knows that those bear-populated lands are full of software pirates and virii writers because of general lawlessness and mafia control over authorities, so no Mac software sales can increase there, but on the contrary, we will witness flood of pirated mac software from Russia. So, yes, I am against increasing Mac presence in Russia and would be more than happy to leave all those rich looking for new toys they cannot handle neither in English nor in Russian to fiddle with their pirated copies of XP.

Perhaps you could find reasons other then selling a few mac units to mafia clans and oil oligarghs per month (since all other, average people seem to be burdened with their own everyday survival problems rather than thiking about buying latest G5) and share them with us.

Perhaps you should not take the image of the country as percieved by the US media, and therefore, get a clue about what you are talking about.

I mean, really, yes, piracy exists here, and mafia exists too, but it also does in other countries. Should we just cease software development for that reason?

I agree, Russian market is small. So is Finnish, Dutch and others. Apple has some interests in this country, as they have the IMC (www.apple.ru) here. IMC produces Russian localization for the OS, but they do this with significant delays, as I stated before -- perhaps Apple can contract them to create a localization for the upcoming version of the OS. I know, this increases the testing costs and everything, but in the end many would benefit it.

Edit: Removed some insults to Hash I find irrelevant.

[Sven G]

Apple could learn something from these people (maybe: not too sure they actually want to learn from other experiences, as long as [...]):

http://i18n.kde.org

Localising the OS only because it might be "profitable" is a rather primitive way of thinking, indeed: if Apple doesn't feel like localising to "unprofitable" languages - well, then they should let other people do it, and even much more easily, ultimately...

[Diggory Laycock]

In Soviet Russia Mac OS X localises you!

.... sorry.

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by slava:
Perhaps you should not take the image of the country as percieved by the US media, and therefore, get a clue about what you are talking about.

I mean, really, yes, piracy exists here, and mafia exists too, but it also does in other countries. Should we just cease software development for that reason?

I agree, Russian market is small. So is Finnish, Dutch and others. Apple has some interests in this country, as they have the IMC (www.apple.ru) here. IMC produces Russian localization for the OS, but they do this with significant delays, as I stated before -- perhaps Apple can contract them to create a localization for the upcoming version of the OS. I know, this increases the testing costs and everything, but in the end many would benefit it.

Edit: Removed some insults to Hash I find irrelevant.

Do you think Apple know about Apple IMC in Russia? I doubt, maybe Apple Euro know that there is UK Apple dealer located in Moscow, Russia. As far as I know we don't have official Apple distributor at the moment in Russia. People want to buy Macs in Russia, but there is almost nothing in the stock. People want to pay cash and get their computers right a way, it's okay to wait 2-3 weeks, but not 2-3 months. I've been waiting for my PowerBook G4 Al for 2 months because of some problems on the custom of Apple IMC, you know we should agree that Apple IMC doesn't play the role that should play as normal Apple distributor on the market, that is why we don't have normal understanding of our problems from Apple officials in the U.S. I remember another story when trackpad was translated to Russian as "pyatochek", i think it was in MacOS 7.5, So, it's better to have U.S. based Apple to do localization. I want to be able install the latest software updates directly through Software update, most of the normal users want this.

[Hash]

notice I am NOT complaining about the insults addressed me while a simple suggestion to learn more English apparently triggers flood of complaints enough to reach mods. My point is instead of using localized software people should start learning more English - thats purely my opinion and i am entitled to it - cause I don't see simply how can small OS X market support limitless localization. Why the small group of Russian users cannot learn enough English, is beyond my understanding. It will benefit them greatly as instead of 0.5% of world information available in Russian for them on Internet, they will have access to 95% of world information in English.

[macdaemon]

Slava, I don't think that situation in Russia with Apple will change in the near future.
I've been working closely with Jason Cox from Fidelity Media, Inc. and finally now MegaSeg works with russian mp3 files almost perfect.
I don't think that Apple IMC or Apple head office will do something nice for us, probably we should do it on the our own, specially after murder of Editor of Russian Forbes magazine, people in U.S. have got a bad picture of our country, of course we have a mafia here, so I don't expect from Apple that they will look at the Russia from the different point of view. So, we are kind trapped in this situation and there is no way out, speciallly that Steve Jobs now busy with president elections in the States, consulting John Kerry.

[PER3]

Please excuse me if I don't address individual points raised one by one.

Concerning a market in Russia for Apple, it seems to me that the potential is huge. Although there are quite a few sellers of Apple in Russia best known in the publishing industry, their retail profile is very small. Surely they could be doing better with a market of 140 mn.

At the Gorbushka market, for example, where there are hundreds of computer shops (and pirate PC and Mac software sellers), there is no-one openly selling Apple computers. I asked one retailer if I could buy a Mac and he told me that he could have one the next day if I wanted. When I asked him why there was not one, in the whole of Gorbushka, on display, he told me that they were a specialist computer. When I told him that this wasn't quite accurate, and that I used a Mac at home no sweat and without viruses, he said that Macs were great computers but that it was just not possible. In short, if you know Mac, you can get one easily, but that otherwise, they were not worth the shelf-space.

If we look at the question of Mac in Russia in isolation, sure, localisation would go a long way to making it more attractive. Unfortunately, it is not just a question of the OS. If one needs to get to the segment of the population that can afford Mac, one also needs to localise the major programmes such as MS Office and Photoshop and the Adobe creations.

As I see it, making a general Apple market in non-latin countries is not feasible if the major programmes are not localised alongside the OS. Look at the lousy market penetration in mainland China, for example, even given the localised OS. Let's not talk about Apple marketing in China for now, shall we?

Should the major pogrammes be localised for these countries, the next question is how the software makers of said programmes should profit from their action given that their work will, in the majority, be pirated.

They won't make any profit (in my view), if they make Russian/Chinese versions available. Should Apple foot the bill, given that they would be the major benefactor?

I eagerly wait another point of view.

PER2

PS Can anyone say how many man-hours or $$ it costs to localise OS X or a programme such as PhotoShop or InDesign? Who paid for the Turkish 10.3 for example? And the Hungarian version?

[BenRoethig]

As one of the few Americans who can read and write Russian, I'm all for it.

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by Hash:


notice I am NOT complaining about the insults addressed me while a simple suggestion to learn more English apparently triggers flood of complaints enough to reach mods. My point is instead of using localized software people should start learning more English - thats purely my opinion and i am entitled to it - cause I don't see simply how can small OS X market support limitless localization. Why the small group of Russian users cannot learn enough English, is beyond my understanding. It will benefit them greatly as instead of 0.5% of world information available in Russian for them on Internet, they will have access to 95% of world information in English.

Ok. Let’s put it another way.
Let’s say Apple were created in Russia and the whole computer industry moved from CA to Moscow region. The whole world have changed, the main language is Russian, and Apple Computer a Russian company. Let’s say Steve Jobs is not a Steve, his name is Ivan Ivanov, but you’ll be an American. :-)
How would you feel if I’ll say to you to learn Russian? Don’t you think that it is fair? The whole Internet is on the Russian language as well, and I’m saying to you now, learn Russian! I think this whole story made up by me is related with human rights and democracy as well. Don’t you feel so? So, the reality unfortunately is opposite and we all know that States push to learn English in the whole world, it’s not about localization of MacOS X, and it’s about U.S. domination in the world.
Thank you very much. I think we've got a picture here.

[Hash]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
Ok. Let’s put it another way.
Let’s say Apple were created in Russia and the whole computer industry moved from CA to Moscow region. The whole world have changed, the main language is Russian, and Apple Computer a Russian company. Let’s say Steve Jobs is not a Steve, his name is Ivan Ivanov, but you’ll be an American. :-)
How would you feel if I’ll say to you to learn Russian? Don’t you think that it is fair? The whole Internet is on the Russian language as well, and I’m saying to you now, learn Russian! I think this whole story made up by me is related with human rights and democracy as well. Don’t you feel so? So, the reality unfortunately is opposite and we all know that States push to learn English in the whole world, it’s not about localization of MacOS X, and it’s about U.S. domination in the world.
Thank you very much. I think we've got a picture here.

I think that English is de-facto world language, language of international communications, and it is related not only wit US domination (perceived or factual) but with the fact that a lof of countries in the world DO speak English, e.g. New Zealand, India, Australia, Canada, so on. Hundreds of millions also learn English as a main foreign language. So software in English is ready for international, truly global distrubution. Same applies to German, French, Spanish, Portuguese. China is becoming world largest producer and, in near future, largest consumer of computer products, especially hardware, with rising income of population. With software development costs rising, the burden of supporting small market localization becomes increasingly high and unjustifiable. OS X by its nature supports Unicode, but as it was mentioned, OS X itself is not enough for full localization - large vendors must support it, Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft, but they do not do it. So blaming Apple is unfair and, in many cases, Apple supports localization far more than vendors do. The cost of localization then is absorbed in total software development cost and it means that 129$ for Panther includes cost of its localization into many languages, which is OK, but the problem is cost-benefit ratio of localization for very small markets is so bad that no investor gonna approve it. For example, is there point in localizing OS X into Cambodian? No, these people do not need Macs. And this also applies to Russia, which in terms of computer software market does not differ much from Cambodia (sorry, Cambodians out there ) - 99% of software there is pirated and people buy (when they buy) not Macs, but cheapest Celeron boxes and will never buy Macs, even if you localize Apple logo itself.

It is not matter of localization itsefl - let OS X support 1000 languages, why not- it is a question of how large the market is. Finnish market, while small in absolute terms, has much much higher purchasing power than Russian with its 100 million of population. Thats why Finnish Mac market software may be localized, while Russian not. On the other hand, Russian Windows software maybe very well localized, because there is market for it (but still will end dwarfed by Russian software pirates, who will successfully kill any attempt to sell software there to justify the localization cost).

So yes, I do NOT support localization of mac software for Russian market, if there are companies, which want to throw away a couple of millions of US dollars, let them try russian localization, it will have same effect on their sales.

[Mac Guru]

I've never understood that "speak English" mentality.

I've been to several foreign countries and I always see the same thing. A Petulant American, blowing up in the face of a shop keeper because he's not fluent in the TOURIST'S language. I for one, think it's very arrogant of that tourist to think that someone he is visiting, should speak his language.

If a Russian moved to America, it would benefit him GREATLY and I think it should be required if he LIVES in America, to learn English. If I moved to Russia, I wouldn't pull this, 'holy american' attitude. This is one reason people don't like us too much, we move in and impose OUR way of life on them. I believe that if YOU have something THEY use, that it is in YOUR best interest to adapt to the user, NOT make them adapt to you.

I think we need to broaden our mind a bit and think OUTSIDE of the US.

Mac Guru

[Turnpike]

I know nothing of the Russian computer market... I just think it'd be good to have the OS available in all major languages, and Russian is definitely a major language.

Consider the rest of this post OT:
America is primarily a mish-mash of various European cultures. The American "identity" is only 200-400 years old, depending on when you start counting. This identity came from such diverse backgrounds that it still hasn't really solidified as one thing. No culture of its own except a piecemeal of everybody else's, no tradition that hasn't been borrowed and adapted.
If there is one thing America can easily identify with, it is that American Dream. We can succeed, if we try. Ruthless capitalism is just a step behind that. A culture of "do what it takes" and "don't bother if there is no profit." Communism was the devil. Hippies were commies. Open source supporters are commies. The American identity? Not if we can help it.
We don't have an identity. We have no shared tradition to agree upon. After 9/11, we agreed that was a tragic event, and we had an identity. Even that, now, we can't agree upon. Without a strong, unique culture to back it up, we can't maintain an identity.
What's wrong with this? Well, Americans don't understand identity at all. We don't understand why other cultures exist. We don't think they should. After all, identity doesn't matter. We don't have one, and we're doing fine. Right? Why does everybody need their own language? Their own traditions?
We don't all ask those questions. Just some of us do. The loud ones. The people the rest of the world can hear. The rest of the world, unknowingly, assumes we have an identity, and they hate us because of the bigoted, ignorant identity put forth by far too many.
It is good we don't share an identity. Why? Because I don't want the American identity. I want an identity, but I want the quiet one. The accepting one. Not the American one.

[PER3]

One of the great things about OS X is that out of the box, the OS and primary programmes are immediately available in quite a few languages. Does Windows do this? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Windows available only in a particular language format? Why is this?

One thing I would like to know, as I asked in my last post, is how much it actually costs to localise an OS or a programme. This is the most important question of our discussion - how much does it cost, who will do it, and will it pay off?

That someone has seen fit outside of Apple HQ to localise 10.3 for Russia and Turkey must tell us something! Do you think they are doing it for charity? Could someone please give some real figures?

Concerning Hash's comparison of Russia and Cambodia as far as a market for software goes - I'm sure that if he thought about it a little further, he might not say the same thing again.

On a side note, concerning Cambodia in particular, whom Hash says does not need Macs in any case, perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a look at XeTeX. This is an open-source programme for OS X that allows TeX/LaTeX to use loads of international fonts with little of the voodoo that was required before it appeared. It's not mature yet, but it has fantastic potential to make more sane the workflow of people working with non-Latin alphabets - basically every language in the world. And this is a bunch of open-source programmers. And they chose OS X as the platform.

As far as telling people that they should simply learn English, well, it's a very complicated question. Certainly, it is the international language right now, and I don't want to derail the issue by recommending that your grandchildren learn Mandarin, but I can tell you, that as a native English speaker fluent in Russian, I am much more productive and happier working on an English system than a Russian. I'm sure that I am not the only one who prefers to work in their mother-tongue.

Getting back to the central point - how much does it cost to localise an OS (in particular Mac OS X) and its programmes? How many pages, how many hours, and how many dollars per page? And what is the bottom line?

[pat++]

Altough I'm using Mac OS X in English (this is a choice, I'm french), I can tell you Apple's market would be dead in France if Mac OS X was not localized in French.

These arogant american people just think they own the world. Come'on. Most young people now learn english at school very early, but a lot of them didn't have that chance, and will never learn english.

When you buy an expensive computer, you expect it to at least use your native language.
Would you accept to buy a computer with a Russian operating system in America?

[clebin]

Originally posted by Hash:
I think that English is de-facto world language, language of international communications (snip)

It also happens to be your language. Coincidence? It's nice that life has afforded you the luxury of being completely ignorant. Stick to the two word posts pal, so we can skip over them.

I've said it before, but I would like to see Apple produce a world class, easy-to-use localisation tool for MacOS and package-based apps. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

(EDIT: another pet subject I've mentioned before... sorry!) They'd never have the resources to localise into Welsh, but by not going that extra mile to facilitate others to do it, they risk losing sales in government here and the wider influence on the rest of UK government.

It's just one example and the wealthy in Russia have a damn sight more money that we do!

Chris

[sbjordal]

Originally posted by Hash:
I think that English is de-facto world language, language of international communications, and it is related not only wit US domination (perceived or factual) but with the fact that a lof of countries in the world DO speak English, e.g. New Zealand, India, Australia, Canada, so on. Hundreds of millions also learn English as a main foreign language. So software in English is ready for international, truly global distrubution. Same applies to German, French, Spanish, Portuguese. China is becoming world largest producer and, in near future, largest consumer of computer products, especially hardware, with rising income of population. With software development costs rising, the burden of supporting small market localization becomes increasingly high and unjustifiable. OS X by its nature supports Unicode, but as it was mentioned, OS X itself is not enough for full localization - large vendors must support it, Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft, but they do not do it. So blaming Apple is unfair and, in many cases, Apple supports localization far more than vendors do. The cost of localization then is absorbed in total software development cost and it means that 129$ for Panther includes cost of its localization into many languages, which is OK, but the problem is cost-benefit ratio of localization for very small markets is so bad that no investor gonna approve it. For example, is there point in localizing OS X into Cambodian? No, these people do not need Macs. And this also applies to Russia, which in terms of computer software market does not differ much from Cambodia (sorry, Cambodians out there ) - 99% of software there is pirated and people buy (when they buy) not Macs, but cheapest Celeron boxes and will never buy Macs, even if you localize Apple logo itself.

It is not matter of localization itsefl - let OS X support 1000 languages, why not- it is a question of how large the market is. Finnish market, while small in absolute terms, has much much higher purchasing power than Russian with its 100 million of population. Thats why Finnish Mac market software may be localized, while Russian not. On the other hand, Russian Windows software maybe very well localized, because there is market for it (but still will end dwarfed by Russian software pirates, who will successfully kill any attempt to sell software there to justify the localization cost).

So yes, I do NOT support localization of mac software for Russian market, if there are companies, which want to throw away a couple of millions of US dollars, let them try russian localization, it will have same effect on their sales.

While I would call most of what Hash has written in this thread as horse-poo, I have to agree with this statement. What it comes down to is a question of economics. It is apparant that the purchasing power of the few russions that own a Macintosh does not warrant a localized version of OS X. It's unfortunate and a catch-22; perhaps more russians would use OS X if it was available in their native language.