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LightWaver-67 · Oct 8, 2004, 08:47 AM

In the more recent builds, have any developers commented on whether or not we will see the 'reversed' colors in the corners of the menu-bar in Tiger...?

I really like(d) how the Apple menu and the Searchlight icon had the white over blue, but then I thought I saw that the distributed builds did NOT have this color scheme. Has it been incorporated, and if not, do you think they are scrapping the idea...?

Just curious...

OptimusG4 · Oct 8, 2004, 09:21 AM

The WWDC build did not have the blue corners afaik but I believe internal and more recent builds have them.

silverboy31 · Oct 8, 2004, 11:21 AM

Actually the WWDC bulid has the spot light bluecorner, but not the apple corner ..looks good too. i belong to Adc so i do have legal copies thats all i can say

arekkusu · Oct 8, 2004, 01:19 PM

I think this looks terrible. It appears as if the Apple/Spotlight menus are always selected.

Millennium · Oct 8, 2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by arekkusu:
I think this looks terrible. It appears as if the Apple/Spotlight menus are always selected.

That's my major complaint also. If they really wanted to change the colors of the endcaps (an inherently questionable UI design decision in itself), the least they could have done was to choose a color that didn't match the one used for menu selections.

mattyd · Oct 8, 2004, 04:14 PM

I think the blue endcaps and the super-shiny menu bar look very XPish.

Blech!

mikemako · Oct 8, 2004, 04:49 PM

I like it.. Plus now (I believe) you can just throw your mouse up to either top corner and click to access those menus. Isn't that what the H.I.G. people always wanted? In Panther and earlier, you would have to click almost directly on the blue apple to open the menu.

lngtones · Oct 8, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by arekkusu:
I think this looks terrible. It appears as if the Apple/Spotlight menus are always selected.

That is a pretty lame comment. The end caps have a different texture than the regularly selected menus, plus they're always at the end so after using it once you're not going to be confused if it's selected or not.

Besides, how hard is it. If you're typing a message on MacNN and you look up and see dark blue endcaps are you going to freak out? OH MY GOD THEY'RE SELECTED HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED.

On that note I think the scrollbars shouldn't be blue anymore, and the default desktop picture shouldn't be blue, and the default buttons shouldn't be blue. They all look selected to me. I'm so confused I don't know what's selected and what's not anymore. I mean I click and the thing I click is highlighted, but so is the scrollbar. Maybe the OS IS TRICKING ME!!

Millennium · 07:43 PM

Originally posted by mikemako:
Plus now (I believe) you can just throw your mouse up to either top corner and click to access those menus. Isn't that what the H.I.G. people always wanted? In Panther and earlier, you would have to click almost directly on the blue apple to open the menu.

Indeed, this is an improvement, and I don't mean to belittle that. But it could have been done without changing the color of the menubar at all; small separators, which exist as part of the new design anyway, would have been sufficient. Indeed, it took more effort to change the color than to leave it as it was. And even if the color had to change, they could certainly have done it in some other color than the default menu-selection color. A darker shade of grey, for example, would have worked quite nicely.

Millennium · Oct 8, 2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by lngtones:
That is a pretty lame comment. The end caps have a different texture than the regularly selected menus, plus they're always at the end so after using it once you're not going to be confused if it's selected or not.

You might be surprised. Have you ever had to deal with new users?

Besides, how hard is it. If you're typing a message on MacNN and you look up and see dark blue endcaps are you going to freak out? OH MY GOD THEY'RE SELECTED HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED.

On that note I think the scrollbars shouldn't be blue anymore, and the default desktop picture shouldn't be blue, and the default buttons shouldn't be blue. They all look selected to me.

They're not menus. You do bring up an interesting point, that "blue = active" in Aqua. Menus, however, have never followed that convention, they still won't in Tiger except for these two extremely illogical special cases.

There are many cases when the theoretical turns out to not be so useful in real life. Take a look at the Dock, or the Piles concept even, for examples of that. The former is a theoretical nightmare which nevertheless works quite effectively, and the latter is a theoretical dream that doesn't work out at all. However, despite these, there are also cases where the theoretical mirrors the reality spot-on, and selection coloring is one of them.

TETENAL · Oct 8, 2004, 07:44 PM

We don't need "small separators" between menus. The menu bar never had separators for more than 20 years and this worked just fine. Refrain from adding unnecessary visual clutter to the user interface.

CharlesS · Oct 8, 2004, 08:17 PM

Hey, I agree with Millennium. How often does that happen?

When looking at the screenshots, the highlighted Apple and Search menus do startle me a bit, and seem a little weird. It does seem like they're always selected, and while it obviously wouldn't hinder me from being able to use the menus, it does feel... weird. Oh well, it's not a dealbreaker or anything. Just a bit strange is all...

Superchicken · Oct 8, 2004, 09:42 PM

I think the bright blue end caps screw with the interface a bit, that said, they're kinda like the metal finder, don't so much care for it, but I'd live with it if I get new features... like Automator... yum...

That said, I really hope they switch Finder to the new mail.app interface.

Webscreamer · Oct 9, 2004, 02:41 PM

I love the blue corners... I just hope they turn graphite when you have the graphite theme selected.

MrForgetable · Oct 9, 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
I love the blue corners... I just hope they turn graphite when you have the graphite theme selected.

I wish I could change the color of the Aqua theme to a color other than graphite

A color to match your mood!

Angus_D · Oct 9, 2004, 04:45 PM

SafariX · Oct 9, 2004, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:

Is that from the ADC?

Superchicken · Oct 9, 2004, 05:03 PM

I would love to see Apple have something like a hue adjuster for the interface elements. At least the stuff like the Apple Menu, open close and min widgets and scroll bars. That'd be freaking cool. If they did it resolution independent with vectors they could just change the colours on the fly... that'd be freaking cool!

MindFad · Oct 9, 2004, 05:05 PM

I hope Apple gets rid of the endcap eyesores in Tiger. I kind of liked them at first, but as people mentioned, they're not very consistent with the design of the GUI. I would personally like the menu to look just as it does in Panther. And make Spotlight a menu item on the right, not a stinkin' big-ass button that is always there and bright blue.

ryju · Oct 9, 2004, 05:07 PM

I personally like these "end-caps" however what I don't like is these fat scroll bars. I think they should be skinnier (they are skinnier in some cases though).

Angus_D · Oct 9, 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by SafariX:
Is that from the ADC?

RadarWeb, yes.

MacGorilla · Oct 9, 2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:

LightWaver-67 · Oct 10, 2004, 07:33 AM

Yikes! I guess I'm a minority on this topic. I really LIKE the blue end-caps. It doesn't break any paradigms for me and I think it "anchors" the menu-bar visually. Just goes to show you how difficult Apple's (or ANY software developer's) job can be, to please everyone every time on every issue.

Whether it has them or not, I'm sure Tiger will be a great improvement, but I really liked the visual impact it added... and I agree that it should change to "Graphite" if you have chosen that scheme in the SysPrefs.

I had no-idea people felt so strongly AGAINST the endcaps.

lngtones · Oct 10, 2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Yikes! I guess I'm a minority on this topic. I really LIKE the blue end-caps. It doesn't break any paradigms for me and I think it "anchors" the menu-bar visually. Just goes to show you how difficult Apple's (or ANY software developer's) job can be, to please everyone every time on every issue.

Whether it has them or not, I'm sure Tiger will be a great improvement, but I really liked the visual impact it added... and I agree that it should change to "Graphite" if you have chosen that scheme in the SysPrefs.

I had no-idea people felt so strongly AGAINST the endcaps.

The endcaps rock, I thought they were genius when I first saw them.

MindFad · Oct 10, 2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
I had no-idea people felt so strongly AGAINST the endcaps.

They're ugly and inconsistent, that's all.

But I agree, Tiger will rock anyway.

Truepop · Oct 10, 2004, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
I had no-idea people felt so strongly AGAINST the endcaps.

well the current menubar flows nicely. the end caps just seem too definite for me. the menu bar extends the length of the desktop but with the end caps it makes the menubar stick out a lot more and not seem to fit the screen correctly.

that's just me.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 11, 2004, 02:28 AM

They look like the bloody start menu in XP.

Superchicken · Oct 11, 2004, 02:32 AM

OK, I can understand one for the Apple menu, but not for spotlight. Since when is spotlight more important than any other system element? By this logic you should be able to pull out system prefs from a little thing in the menu bar, (I know it's in the Apple menu)

I think it just makes more sense to have spotlight be just another icon on the top right, even make it movable.

Simon · Oct 11, 2004, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
They look like the bloody start menu in XP.

Bingo. You win the grand prize!

Take Windows XP's start button and exchange the green for the blue and you've got Tiger's end caps. Yuck.

Twilly Spree · Oct 11, 2004, 07:41 AM

What are u talking about?

Pix plz thx

Simon · 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
What are u talking about?

Pix plz thx

This:

vs.:

(sorry, the last image sucks, but I couldn't get a better magnified version)

Twilly Spree · Oct 11, 2004, 09:45 AM

Thanks, yeah damn.

Totally unnecessary and ugly. Ugh.

HOMBRESINIESTRO · Oct 11, 2004, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
This:

vs.:

(sorry, the last image sucks, but I couldn't get a better magnified version)

You should perhaps better try this (Longhorn vs. Tiger):

vs.

(Image courtesy of Apple)

TimmyDee51 · Oct 11, 2004, 12:27 PM

I dunno. . . I know the Apple menu looks like the XP start menu, but I feel like Spotlight needs something to set it off in the corner. Once that happened, I'm sure they looked at the menu bar and said, "This doesn't look right. We need some balance." Hence the blue Apple menu button. Plus, you finally get that infinite corner capability for both, which in my mind is would be very welcome.

So I guess I like it for functionality and appearance. Just my 2�.

LightWaver-67 · Oct 11, 2004, 01:03 PM

I had no idea that Longhorn was going "Glossy" like that...

Man... I mean, I know it's not as if Apple invented the idea of a glossy looking surface, but they were the first to incorporate it into an operating system UI... and it's purpose is purely DECORATIVE, not functional... so to see THAT aspect copied is really humorous.

I mean, UI paradigms and navigational elements that add or enhance functionality... I can see THOSE being copied from os-to-os as each improves... but "Glossiness" is not a UI trait that enhances it.... it's just a design effect. I see no reason why Longhorn would WANT to adopt that.

No... seriously... there are so MANY other artistic means of displaying a UI and Apple chose a unique and differentiating "Aqua" style... and it's the "Look" that gets copied, not the underlying (better?) layout and presentation of the UI, which is so much more important.

Twilly Spree · Oct 11, 2004, 02:30 PM

Embossed/3d buttons are just decorative not functional yet Apple copied them from Microsoft :/

System 7 vs OS 8

cpac · Oct 11, 2004, 02:30 PM

my only problem is the coloring - it make it look like the apple menu is selected, only without any menu appearing below it. I *do* think that Spotlight is revolutionary enough that it deserves it's own unique (or semi-unique) style, and while I don't really use the apple menu much, it is different in that it's omnipresent...

There's just got to be a better way to set off the apple menu and spotlight from the rest of the menu bar - something that doesn't make it look like you've selected a bunch of menus that are somehow broken...

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 11, 2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Superchicken:
OK, I can understand one for the Apple menu, but not for spotlight. Since when is spotlight more important than any other system element?

Um, I never use the Apple menu for anything other then system prefs. When spotlight is out I will never use the finder. So ya, i would say it is damn important.

arekkusu · Oct 11, 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by TimmyDee51:
Plus, you finally get that infinite corner capability for both, which in my mind is would be very welcome.

Now that there is a nice photo of the Tiger menu bar posted in the thread, I invite everyone to carefully think about where the clickable zones are. In 10.0 through 10.3, there is a 10 pixel "dead zone" to the left of the Apple menu. In Tiger, the Apple menu is now flush with the corner. But what do you think is between the Apple and the Application menu?

cpac · Oct 11, 2004, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by arekkusu:
But what do you think is between the Apple and the Application menu?

nothing?

storer · Oct 11, 2004, 05:09 PM

I don't know... i think I like the Longhorn one and Apple one equally, it's hard to say. The longhorn one would be able to be changed at will, if the apple could do that it would be okay.

Twilly Spree · Oct 11, 2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Um, I never use the Apple menu for anything other then system prefs. When spotlight is out I will never use the finder. So ya, i would say it is damn important.

The Apple menu was much more used in OS 9 and earlier. It had a more Dock-like functionality and you could customize it etc. Now it is very close to being a 'start' button. Even so it doesn't have to look like the friggin start button!! EEeww

TimmyDee51 · Oct 11, 2004, 05:38 PM

Interestingly, Apple doesn't seem to have made up their mind, either. If you look on the Tiger preview page, the Dashboard screenshot (thumbnail of the full screen) has the Spotlight icon in blue and the traditional Apple menu. If you watch the Dashboard movie, however, you see both ends capped in blue. The same seems to be true in all of the movies.

It is likely that Apple just doesn't want to take the time/hasn't noticed yet, but I think it could be indicative of the fact that they don't know which way it will go, either.

arekkusu · Oct 11, 2004, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
nothing?

Obviously nothing is set in stone until Tiger ships. But think about how far the selected menu extends from the Application text on each side. Now compare Panther and Tiger, using the screenshot in this thread. Try mousing between Application and Apple menu in Panther, then imagine doing it in Tiger.

MPMoriarty · Oct 11, 2004, 10:56 PM

Ok, I have heard a lot of people saying that they don't like the blue end caps. Some don't like the fact that they are blue while others just don't like them.

But here's my question...

How do you guys suggest them implement this. SpotLight needs some global quick access button or something. And I'm not talking about just falling back on the keyboard shortcut. Simple users are going to want to see some visual button or something. Not have to learn a new shortcut to benefit from SpotLight.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I'm just curious as to what you guys would do to fix this. I personally like it but I'm sure that there is a better way to do it. Of course, I can't think of a way.

Mike

smeger · Oct 11, 2004, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by MPMoriarty:
Ok, I have heard a lot of people saying that they don't like the blue end caps. Some don't like the fact that they are blue while others just don't like them.

But here's my question...

How do you guys suggest them implement this. SpotLight needs some global quick access button or something. And I'm not talking about just falling back on the keyboard shortcut. Simple users are going to want to see some visual button or something. Not have to learn a new shortcut to benefit from SpotLight.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I'm just curious as to what you guys would do to fix this. I personally like it but I'm sure that there is a better way to do it. Of course, I can't think of a way.

Mike

I'd like it be a menu extra just like any other menu extra. The problem I have with it is that it's inconsistent. Apple is basically saying "hey look, here's a menu just like any other menu, but this menu is more important than all of the other menus, so we made it blue. Look!!!!!"

I understand that they're trying to emphasize to new users that these weird symbol things in the menubar are menus, but the approach they're taking is like painting a gigantic pothole in the middle of the road pink to keep people from driving into it.

kman42 · Oct 11, 2004, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by arekkusu:
Obviously nothing is set in stone until Tiger ships. But think about how far the selected menu extends from the Application text on each side. Now compare Panther and Tiger, using the screenshot in this thread. Try mousing between Application and Apple menu in Panther, then imagine doing it in Tiger.

I don't get your point. It looks the same to me. There's more space between the actual apple and the 'F', but since the apple is now a button the spacing looks as it should.

lookmark · Oct 11, 2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
I'd like it be a menu extra just like any other menu extra. The problem I have with it is that it's inconsistent. Apple is basically saying "hey look, here's a menu just like any other menu, but this menu is more important than all of the other menus, so we made it blue. Look!!!!!"

I understand that they're trying to emphasize to new users that these weird symbol things in the menubar are menus, but the approach they're taking is like painting a gigantic pothole in the middle of the road pink to keep people from driving into it.

The important thing is emphasis -- Spotlight really is a major, possibly paradigm-shifting new feature, and they don't want people to miss it.

Thus, I think, they're breaking the rules a little (and, by balancing out the other end, killing the new-users-who-don't-get-the-Apple-menu-is-a-menu bird with the same blue-gradient stone). I'm sorry to see the consistency of menu selection bend a little (it is a different kind of highlight, if a fairly subtle difference), but it makes sense to me.

How else would you make Spotlight stand out as a central feature in the menu bar?

TimmyDee51 · Oct 12, 2004, 12:19 AM

It's not only that Spotlight is a paradigm shift (which it is), it's that they want it easily accessible. Besides right under your mouse, what's one of the most easily accessible parts of the screen? The corners. Just jam your mouse up into the upper corer and click and you've got Spotlight. Right now the corners are wasted.

I know I sound like Tog on this one, but he does still have a few good ideas.

JKT · Oct 12, 2004, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
We don't need "small separators" between menus. The menu bar never had separators for more than 20 years and this worked just fine. Refrain from adding unnecessary visual clutter to the user interface.

Bzzzt, not true. The application switcher in MacOS 9 has a separator bar to its left.

(Sorry for the

post)