[lau_lau_lau]

hello all,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, and it's sort of a shot in the dark because I don't even know if anyone here will use it, but I've got a query regarding Japanese support in OSX. Basically, for those who don't know, you type in your japanese word phonetically (to be more precise using the modified hepburn system, but it is phonetic), i.e. ????is written 'ikura', and it appears in kana just as you would expect. The great thing about it is, when you have finished the word, if you press spacebar before you press enter, it lists the possible kanji for that word, so ikura has ??????and many, many other choices (it's so good that in the case of an unusual option it has a little information button which pops up information on when and how to use it).

Basically, with all this fancy trickery built into OSX, I was wondering whether anyone knew if there was a way to get the kana of a word from the kanji. This is obviously possible somehow, as OSX performs the kana --> kanji translation, so must be able to perform kanji --> kana. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea how to do this? I'd be really grateful.

Many thanks


EDIT: none of my characters showed up correctly, they are all ????'s even though they showed up fine in the entry box. Clearly macnn's messageboard isn't as wonderous as mac osx

[TETENAL]

男の子
女の子
犬
車

I'm not aware of any kanji to kana conversion in OS X. Are you sure this is always possible without context?

[David Lee]

Learning the kana reading of an unknown Kanji character is always the problem for translators or readers of Japanese. The ATOK system also has a Kanji palette used to find the reading of Kanji and a freehand pallette where you write the Kanji bu hand (mouse) and it tells you the reading!
I have found that the ATOK (alternative Kanji input system) application/utility comes with a dictionary application with a couple of good dictionaries included, more available at extra cost, made by SystemSoft included in the retail package. This application will accept drag and drop of an unkown Kanji and tell you the kana reading as well as the meaning in English. You can also buy a Japanese-Japanese dictionary for the software for even more information, historical use etc., called Kojien. (It even has some English info in it at times!)
IF you are a serious users of Japanese, this dictionary alone is worth the price of the ATOK system. I personally like the EGBridge Input Method better, but ATOK does have a really good Kanji dictionary, much better than the Kotoeri system built-in as standard in OSX. Kotoeri has improved over the years but it is still rather weak, often failing to offer up the Kanji you need. Good Luck

[tom@bluesky.org]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lau_lau_lau:
I was wondering whether anyone knew if there was a way to get the kana of a word from the kanji.

I don't think any facility for this is included in the Kotoeri IM. It's a bit problematic since kanji often have two possible readings, kun and on. However there is a website which claims to do it, and you might want to have a look at it:

http://www.j-talk.com/nihongo/

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
男の子
女の子
犬
車

I'm not aware of any kanji to kana conversion in OS X. Are you sure this is always possible without context?

It's not, because each Kanji can have several readings, and there is often no way for the software (or even a Japanese native speaker) to tell which one is used in a specific combination.

I suggest you search www.versiontracker.com or www.macupdate.com for Kanji dictionaries. There's several good ones out there, I'm sure.

These things have been around as electronic pocket dictionaries for many years.

-s*

[CaptainHaddock]

Agreed, you're looking for a kanji dictionary, not some strange input method function. There are some good ones online, and some great ones made of paper.

[rjenkinson]

there is a way. select a word written in kanji and then use the input menu's reverse conversion command. hit escape and it should show the word in hiragana or katakana. make sure that the text is in a field that can be edited though.

-r.

[yongfook]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
[B]It's not, because each Kanji can have several readings, and there is often no way for the software (or even a Japanese native speaker) to tell which one is used in a specific combination.

what the hell? are you saying Japanese people look at kanji combinations going "hmm I wonder which way to read this". No, most people in Japan ARE literate, so this isn't a problem. The only (and I mean ONLY) instance where a native speaker would have some difficulty over which reading to use for a certain kanji is with obscure kanji in people's names (or sometimes a deliberate non-standard reading for a kanji in a persons name) or names of places. In regular words native speakers HAVE to know which reading to use, otherwise they are illiterate!!

And yes thank you rjenkinson, there is a VERY simple solution to all of this (although you need to use the "retrieve fixed yomi" command not the "reverse conversion"). Maybe the rest of you should actually KNOW what you are talking about before you go suggesting the poor OP goes trawling through a Japanese dictionary.

[tom@bluesky.org]

yongfook wrote:
> there is a VERY simple solution to all of this (although you need to use the "retrieve fixed yomi" command not the "reverse conversion").

No, it's "reverse conversion." "Retrieve fixed yomi" just repeats the last string of kana input by the user and it is useless for finding the kana for a kanji that you did not yourself just use kana to input.

Indeed, thank you rjenkinson for pointing out this feature. The results of a "reverse conversion" can also be transliterated into romaji by using that item in the menu.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by yongfook:
what the hell? are you saying Japanese people look at kanji combinations going "hmm I wonder which way to read this". No, most people in Japan ARE literate, so this isn't a problem. The only (and I mean ONLY) instance where a native speaker would have some difficulty over which reading to use for a certain kanji is with obscure kanji in people's names (or sometimes a deliberate non-standard reading for a kanji in a persons name) or names of places. In regular words native speakers HAVE to know which reading to use, otherwise they are illiterate!!

Actually, yes, I was referring to proper names.

Travelling with a Japanese is fun, watching him ask for directions and having to write out the Kanji on his hand because he's pronouncing the place's name all wrong.

-s*

[lau_lau_lau]

Thanks very much! The 'reverse conversion' is exactly what I was looking for. And that j-talk online dictionary (both kanji and normal J-E/E-J) will come in very handy as well. Thanks again! I'll have improved my Japanese in no time. Muhahaha.

[legacyb4]

You assume that 100% of the population is able to read of course...

Haven't you seen the variety shows where they quiz random folks (both young and old) on the streets with more obscure kanji combinations and more than half the time, these folks can't make heads or tails from the characters?

Originally posted by yongfook:
The only (and I mean ONLY) instance where a native speaker would have some difficulty over which reading to use for a certain kanji is with obscure kanji in people's names (or sometimes a deliberate non-standard reading for a kanji in a persons name) or names of places. In regular words native speakers HAVE to know which reading to use, otherwise they are illiterate!!

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by legacyb4:
Haven't you seen the variety shows where they quiz random folks (both young and old) on the streets with more obscure kanji combinations and more than half the time, these folks can't make heads or tails from the characters?

not being able to read obscure words doesn't mean they're illiterate. you could just as easily show english speakers obscure english or old english words and ask them what they mean. literacy has nothing to do with being unable to pronounce or understand words no one actually uses in life.

-r.

[spiky_dog]

here's another good dictionary:

http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/n...line/sjis/dict

[legacyb4]

Literacy: able to read and write (www.m-w.com)

These words are not always obscure or old; just stuff that doesn't come out in your day to day usage.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of folks out there who cannot read nor write when presented with even more standard character combinations even when not used in people's names or places.

Cheers.

Originally posted by rjenkinson:
not being able to read obscure words doesn't mean they're illiterate. you could just as easily show english speakers obscure english or old english words and ask them what they mean. literacy has nothing to do with being unable to pronounce or understand words no one actually uses in life.

-r.

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by legacyb4:
The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of folks out there who cannot read nor write when presented with even more standard character combinations even when not used in people's names or places.

'fraid not.

Japanese literacy stats, from the CIA world fact book:
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99%
male: 99%
female: 99% (2002)

-r.

[legacyb4]

Okay. If you insist.

Have you spent time yourself in Japan?

Granted that the population sampling around Shinjuku/Harajuku/Shibuya/Ebisu is in no way representative of the whole population, but 12 years there in no way gave me no confidence that 99% of the 15+ population was fully literate.

Cheers.

Originally posted by rjenkinson:
'fraid not.
-r.

[Tyler McAdams]

There are over 4000 kanji that have been imported from the Chinese. Many of these have multiple "definitions" depending on how they are used. It would be extremely easy to put together a bunch or rare Kanji combinations and not have some random off the street understand the meaning.

[lau_lau_lau]

As far as I know, isn't there a list of sort of 'approved' common kanji, about 1900 of them, that are in common use, which newspapers and the like try to stick to (and I think there's a law that if you use a kanji not in this list in certain types of public documents you have to include furigana so people can understand it). So people don't really need to know obscure kanji.

And perhaps you are confusing 'literacy' with 'mastery of a language'. Very few English people (and far fewer Americans.... only joking!) have mastery of the English language, yet virtually all are literate.

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by lau_lau_lau:
As far as I know, isn't there a list of sort of 'approved' common kanji, about 1900 of them

That's correct... there's a government sanctioned test, similar to the SAT's, but with more weight given in Japanese schools that covers about 2000 or so Kanji that is supposed to be memorized by the time students are required to take the test. (It's extremely hard and makes or breaks the student for the rest of their life... college is easy there, high school is hard) Hirigana is used with or as a substitute to Kanji (substituted in earlier grade school)

The 2000 or so Kanji are imported by and regulated by the Japanese government.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Tyler McAdams:
That's correct... there's a government sanctioned test, similar to the SAT's, but with more weight given in Japanese schools that covers about 2000 or so Kanji that is supposed to be memorized by the time students are required to take the test. (It's extremely hard and makes or breaks the student for the rest of their life... college is easy there, high school is hard) Hirigana is used with or as a substitute to Kanji (substituted in earlier grade school)

The 2000 or so Kanji are imported by and regulated by the Japanese government.

The 常用 (joyo) kanji set is 1945 characters. In practice, however, several hundred more than that are used quite often, and not just in names.

I believe the test you're referring to is the 漢字検定 (kanji kentei). I don't believe that is required everywhere, and it certainly isn't as big a deal as the college entrance exams. I'd hardly say it "makes or breaks" anyone.

By the way, full mastery of the Joyo kanji set is level 2 on the Kanji Kentei, and when you add in the additional name characters it's level 2+ (準二級). I've heard that the average Japanese person can only pass level 3.

Back to the topic at hand: Yes, as rjenkinson said, you can use the reverse conversion command. But as an illustration of the impossibility of 100%-accurate reverse conversion, consider this simple word: 明日. Reverse conversion gives you the reading あす. But あした is probably what you were looking for. And みょうにち is also valid, though rare.

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by wataru:
[B]I believe the test you're referring to is the 漢字検定 (kanji kentei). I don't believe that is required everywhere, and it certainly isn't as big a deal as the college entrance exams. I'd hardly say it "makes or breaks" anyone.

This test I am referring to was not just for Kanji, but some type of college entrance exam that is supposed to be extremely hard... math, language, everything... We watched a film on it in one of my Nihongo classes in college. My teacher said that by that time they were expected to know the full Kanji vocabulary.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Tyler McAdams:
This test I am referring to was not just for Kanji, but some type of college entrance exam that is supposed to be extremely hard... math, language, everything... We watched a film on it in one of my Nihongo classes in college. My teacher said that by that time they were expected to know the full Kanji vocabulary.

There is no one standardized test. Every school has a different entrance exam.

Most Japanese people are able to recognize all Joyo kanji, and probably know the meanings of all of them as well. But that is very different from being able to correctly pronounce them in all possible combinations, or being able to actually use them well enough to pass level 2 or 2+ of the Kanji Kentei. In that sense, knowing the "full Kanji vocabulary" is not only impractical, but it's also unnecessary.

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by wataru:
There is no one standardized test. Every school has a different entrance exam.

Most Japanese people are able to recognize all Joyo kanji, and probably know the meanings of all of them as well. But that is very different from being able to correctly pronounce them in all possible combinations, or being able to actually use them well enough to pass level 2 or 2+ of the Kanji Kentei. In that sense, knowing the "full Kanji vocabulary" is not only impractical, but it's also unnecessary.

Learning all that Kanji would be ridiculous, agreed. I was under the impression though that their was one government sanctioned test that was ridiculously hard and everybody passed it or you were basically an nobody from then on in Japan. It's been a while since that class though...

[wataru]

It's not ridiculous to be able to recognize that many characters; I did it, and my first language is English. Chinese people have to deal with many, many more. But the kind of proficiency we're talking about is, in my opinion, very much unnecessary.

The Kanji Kentei is run by the Japan Kanji Proficiency Examination Association (日本漢字能力検定協会), which is not part of the government, but is an incorporated foundation (財団法人). I think your memory may be a bit foggy. You could say that college entrance exams make or break someone's career, and kanji proficiency is certainly required to do well on those exams. But the emphasis is not on kanji itself, and those exams are not run by the government.

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by wataru:
It's not ridiculous to be able to recognize that many characters; I did it, and my first language is English. Chinese people have to deal with many, many more. But the kind of proficiency we're talking about is, in my opinion, very much unnecessary.

The Kanji Kentei is run by the Japan Kanji Proficiency Examination Association (日本漢字能力検定協会), which is not part of the government, but is an incorporated foundation (財団法人). I think your memory may be a bit foggy. You could say that college entrance exams make or break someone's career, and kanji proficiency is certainly required to do well on those exams. But the emphasis is not on kanji itself, and those exams are not run by the government.

The exams I'm talking about were really big on math. Basically you'd have to be proficient in 4 level Calculus to be able to score well on the exams. The students undergo massive cramming before the tests and are supposably under tons of pressure. After they are excepted in to college, it's all downhill from there. That much of the documentary I remember clearly. Weather it said the test was "government sactioned" or not I don't.

I finished 3 years of Nihongo and I still remember my Katakana and Hiragana, but my kanji is gone with the wind

[wataru]

At first you implied that the main focus of the test was kanji. I'm glad you agree that that is not the case.

The focus of college entrance exams varies greatly by which department you want to get into. I highly doubt that anyone going into humanities (文系) needs anywhere near 4 years of calculus. For sciences (理系) that could be correct. But that's hardly "everyone," and it varies from school to school.

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by wataru:
At first you implied that the main focus of the test was kanji. I'm glad you agree that that is not the case.

The focus of college entrance exams varies greatly by which department you want to get into. I highly doubt that anyone going into humanities (文系) needs anywhere near 4 years of calculus. For sciences (理系) that could be correct. But that's hardly "everyone," and it varies from school to school.

Yeah I guess I did kind of imply that... what I meant was it covers that among other things.... other things being crazy-ass math problems.
Once again, this was only a stupid documentary we had to watch, and since the only person in the class that was actually from Japan was the teacher, who knows.

Are you Japanese? Your name in this forum and your location always implied to me that you were/are.

[wataru]

No, I'm American. I'd change my username if I could; I used this nickname as my general online pseudonym years ago.

My location has only been "Kanagawa, Japan" for the last few months--I'm studying in Japan right now. Normally it's "Madison, WI."

[Tyler McAdams]

Originally posted by wataru:
No, I'm American. I'd change my username if I could; I used this nickname as my general online pseudonym years ago.

My location has only been "Kanagawa, Japan" for the last few months--I'm studying in Japan right now. Normally it's "Madison, WI."

I've always wanted to go to Japan but I've never had the honor. The Samoan influence in NZ is the only Mongaloid culture I've witnessed first hand... obviously that's not on the same level as Nippon. What exactly are you studying in Japan?