[steveo21]

Hey guys, im new to this board and the mac community. I haven't used a mac since elementary school (about 11 years ago), and I'd like to give the platform a try.

My 2 options are either get an ibook, or setup a mac server. Since I have absolutely no use for a mac in my everyday computer use, and I already own a new laptop, I think I'll end up with a mac server.

I'm currently running suse 9.1 on a system at home, but I'd like to throw windows back on that machine so my friends can use it for lan gaming.

So, seeing as how I've never even came near a machine running OSX, would an emac running a 1.2Ghz G4, 512MB of ram, and OSX be able to run a basic php/mysql based web site, act as a reliable network server, and maybe someday be a mail server?

I mentioned the emac becuase it was the cheapest platform i saw on apple.com. I already have an extra monitor so if there would be a cheaper solution please let me know. Also do macs support gigabit ethernet? If not, does anyone know if Linksys or DLink make mac compatible gigabit cards?

Ok just a few more questions...
Does OSX have built in server support, or do i just have go to apache.org, php.net, and mysql.org to download the free packages? Are there any GUI tools made for or built in to OSX to make the web services configurations easy to setup and manage? The control panels on the newer Linux flavors are quite helpful.

[Detrius]

Wow; you really know absolutely nothing.

The eMac is not expandable. If you want gigabit, you either have to get a PowerBook or a PowerMac. It's been standard on the PMacs since the first G4s. The eMac is not expandable--neither is the iMac. Therefore, gigabit is not an option there.

Apache is built into OS X. You turn it on by clicking a check box. On OS X client, there is no software to configure it, but you can edit the files by hand (or look for third party options).

Also, if you can't afford $1500 for an expandable Mac, you can look into older used/refurbished Power Mac G4s. This would be a better option than setting up an eMac as a server.


I don't think there are many Mac compatible gigabit ethernet cards out there... the only people that would buy them are the people that would want a lot of them.

[steveo21]

wow that really sucks. I store all of my files on my server and constantly access them over the network. when i upgraded to a gigabit lan the improvement was very noticable.

The only way I'd drop more than $850 into a new machine is if it's brand new or a laptop. Without any other options I'll have to reconsider tyring out the mac platform.

Gotta love the $400 it costs for a stable linux server...

[davecom]

Originally posted by Detrius:
Wow; you really know absolutely nothing.

The eMac is not expandable. If you want gigabit, you either have to get a PowerBook or a PowerMac. It's been standard on the PMacs since the first G4s.

Actually gigabit came in one of the later Powermac G4 revisions, hence that revision was called the 'gigabit ethernet' revision. The original originals certainly didn't have gigabit, so be careful when shopping.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by davecom:
Actually gigabit came in one of the later Powermac G4 revisions, hence that revision was called the 'gigabit ethernet' revision. The original originals certainly didn't have gigabit, so be careful when shopping.

As a desktop technician, I'm *supposed* to know all of this stuff. I have a vague recollection that the first G4s effectively had the G3 logic board plus a G4 processor. Were these the AGP graphics models? There can't be many G4s out there w/o gigabit.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by Detrius:
As a desktop technician, I'm *supposed* to know all of this stuff. I have a vague recollection that the first G4s effectively had the G3 logic board plus a G4 processor. Were these the AGP graphics models? There can't be many G4s out there w/o gigabit.

the first G4s came in PCI and AGP graphics versions, called Yikes! and Sawtooth, respectively. neither had gigabit, and the Yikes! was basically a G3 with a G4 transplant. like an above poster noted, the G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) was the first model to have gigabit ethernet, and all Power Mac G4s and G5s from that point on have had gigabit.

[steveo21]

Ok well let me ask you guys something. I dont buy manufactured PCs, i always just order the parts off of newegg.com and build them myself. Is it possible to order mac mobos, cpus, and cases, and assemble a system myself? If it is possible, where should I buy the parts and how much would a custom built mac run me. Remember I just want something of running an OSX web and fileserver with gigabit ethernet. So dont go giving me price quotes on a high end G5 system

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by steveo21:
Is it possible to order mac mobos, cpus, and cases, and assemble a system myself?

no. there once were plans afoot (CHRP) nearly a year ago to do something like this, but the mac os support for it never materialized.

[new newton]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
no. there once were plans afoot (CHRP) nearly a year ago to do something like this, but the mac os support for it never materialized.

Oh, he could do it. It'd just be much more expensive than buying a new machine, or an equivalent used machine.

[steveo21]

hmmm, so apple forces you to buy their manufactured computers which are either expensive or not expandable, and only the expensive ones come with gigabit ethernet... Besides the graphic artists out there, why would anyone choose the mac platform over windows or linux?

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by steveo21:
hmmm, so apple forces you to buy their manufactured computers which are either expensive or not expandable, and only the expensive ones come with gigabit ethernet... Besides the graphic artists out there, why would anyone choose the mac platform over windows or linux?

because most people DON'T want to build their own box. they want to buy it, plug it in, and have "The Internet" (snicker) work without a hitch. they don't want to worry about proper X Window driver settings, they don't want to worry about viruses and spyware.

the other audience is those with savvy, who appreciate non-bargain-basement hardware and like having the option of running native OS X apps, compiled *NIX apps from the BSD base, X Window apps (like Matlab!)... and photoshop, of course.

[new newton]

Expensive is a relative thing. If you don't have much disposable income, a Mac probably seems expensive. I use my machines a lot. I've got 2 Macs, a nice XP machine, and a box running RH9. 90% of my use is on the Mac. It's not for any particular usage or application, but rather because it's what I enjoy using the most. A computer is nothing more than a tool, and if I'm going to spend a lot of time using it I'd best use what I enjoy most. It's simple, really. Would you drive a Chevette if you had a Lexus?

[steveo21]

I understand where youre both coming from. All im saying is how hard would it be for apple to include 1 or 2 pci expansion slots on their low cost models, so people like me who want to try a mac can do so and still have a little freedom to expand their machine. wow talk about a run on sentence...

obviously these are requests that cant be helped by the mac community. but as mac enthusiasts im sure youd like to see the platform get a little more respect in the real world.

this thread has gone way off topic. does apple sell refurbed machines directly? i know you can get a ton of great deals on refurbs at dell.com.

[larkost]

The vast majority of people don't ever need expansion slots. Those that have them just don't use them. And with the advent of FireWire and USB most of the need evaporated. Apple simply recognized this...

The only cards I have ever added to my PC's has been to get capabilities that my expansion-card-less Mac came with to start with (like an ethernet port).

I am not saying that there is not a large group of people who really do need expansion slots, but they know who they are, and with the exceptions of gamers these people are usually professionals who can afford a bit more for a computer. And Apple has them covered.

And Apple does sell refurbs, go to store.apple.com and click on the big red "save" tag.

[new newton]

There's a reason to the ryhyme of how Apple does things. Their lineup is very simple, in part because it allows them to easily deliniate which systems are for which segments of the market. It also pushes users that need more capability towards higher priced, higher margin machines. You may not like that, but you're not Apple's target market. If they offered an eMac with slots, they'd sacrifice some PowerMac sales because of that. Being a business, one has to assume that Apple re-evaluates the market continually, and has come to the conclusion that such an offering would be less beneficial to their business than what they now offer.

As for "respect," well, quite honestly the opinions of young people that can't afford a quality system don't mean much to me. I value opinions based on experience and knowledge, not disappointment resulting from failing to get what you want. That means nothing to me, because it isn't valuable.

If you want to try a Mac and need slots (decide what you need them for first), buy a used PM. They're not expensive.

[steveo21]

"You may not like that, but you're not Apple's target market. If they offered an eMac with slots, they'd sacrifice some PowerMac sales because of that. Being a business, one has to assume that Apple re-evaluates the market continually, and has come to the conclusion that such an offering would be less beneficial to their business than what they now offer."

Sorry im not using the quote feature but my browser doesnt seem to support the quote button...

Look at the number one computer sales company in the world, Dell. The also break their systems down into segments, and each segment is fully customizable. You don't think I mean a lot to apple's business? Well that's like saying that everyone who would like a customized machine in an affordable price range doesn't mean much to their business.

And it has nothing to do with me "Not being able to afford a quality machine", I have 4 PCs and a brand new laptop. Excuse me if I don't want to drop $1500 to try out a new platform.

I was honestly expecting people to agree with what I posted above. I'd be really upset if PC manufactures forced me to buy an old machine or spend $1500 to get what I wanted. But they don't, I can buy a $500 machine that comes with a decent processor, 160GB hdd, 512MB of ram, and have plenty of expansion ports to go along with it.

[new newton]

You've missed the point.

[Luca Rescigno]

A lot of Mac users agree with you and wish Apple didn't consider PCI slots to be a premium feature worthy of spending $1500 for. Many of them end up buying used PowerMacs on eBay. I'd suggest doing the same.

I am currently using a home-built PC, and I bought all the parts new, mostly from NewEgg. But Apple provides very few options even when compared to other PC makers. So you have to end up going to eBay for a lot of the stuff.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by steveo21:
...I can buy a $500 machine that comes with a decent processor, 160GB hdd, 512MB of ram, and have plenty of expansion ports to go along with it.

The company that is selling that machine for $500 probably spent $450 to build it. That's not a market that Apple is interested in tapping. It really isn't worth their time to bother. This is why Apple actually makes profits and stays in business. Also, a $500 machine is only decent by standards of several years ago.

An important thing to consider is that the life expectancy of a $3000 Mac is significantly larger than the life expectancy of a $500 PC. If imagine that you are probably a person that buys a new PC roughly every year... but you are only interested in spending $500. At that rate, you are spending $3000 every six years... assuming you install absolutely no upgrades in any of these machines.

I bought a $3000 Mac four years ago. This machine has gigabit ethernet, four PCI expansion slots (and an AGP slot), three PC133 RAM slots, a DVD±R/W and DVD-RAM burner, two graphics cards, and two hard drives. The $800 eMac is a little bit faster, since mine is a dual 533; however, my machine is significantly more expandable, can run three monitors, and would be cheaper to fix if anything died. I would like a G5, but I currently couldn't afford even a new $500 PC, which is okay, since my four your old Mac would probably be a LOT better than a $500 PC. My four year old Mac would probably still sell for at least $700 with all of the things I've added.

If you buy a top of the line Mac, you won't need a new machine for a VERY long time. If you want expandability, features, and life, don't even bother with the $1500 Mac. Get the $3000 Mac.

[steveo21]

"The company that is selling that machine for $500 probably spent $450 to build it. That's not a market that Apple is interested in tapping. It really isn't worth their time to bother. This is why Apple actually makes profits and stays in business."

I don't see how you can bash the $500 computer and praise apple's marketing strategy when Dell is the number one computer sales company in the world.

As of an article I read back in June of this year, Dell also controls 44% of the education market, that used to be a market dominated by apple. In case you're wondering, Apple now supplies about 14% of the education market.

Theres no way you can turn this into a debate about market strategy when the company you're backing isn't leading the market. In the beginning no one thought the direct from dell concept would work. It was thought that no one would spend hundreds of dollars on a computer that they couldn't try out on the showroom floor. Now almost every PC manufacturer offers custmoizable machines shipped directly to consumers homes. Even best buy offers something called the creation station which lets people customize a machine and have it shipped directly to their homes.

If you're saying you don't mind spending $3000 for a machine that's fine. I just don't see how you can sit here and back apple's marketing strategy while they control such a small percentage of the computer market.

[new newton]

It's not a matter of backing Apple's strategy or not. What's the difference in how you or anyone else feels about it? There is none. The fact is, if you want an expandable Mac you have to spend money or buy used. You can't seem to get your head around that, and don't seem to be looking for a solution here. You seem to want to complain about that which you can't change.

What Apple does suits Apple. If that's in line with your needs, buy the product. If it isn't, don't buy it. How hard can that be?

For me, I find Powermacs to be worth the price. They fit my needs and my budget. If they don't find either of yours, look for something that will.

[drissi_tech]

Sonnet makes a PCI gigabit card for Macs, the Sonnet Presto.
http://www.sonnettech.com/

I have a couple of them, good drivers, no real problems.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by steveo21:
I don't see how you can bash the $500 computer and praise apple's marketing strategy when Dell is the number one computer sales company in the world.

There are more roaches than humans. That doesn't make them better. There are more GM vehicles than BMWs. That doesn't mean that GM is better at making engines than BMW.

Apple isn't looking for profits by low margin and high volume; they are looking for profits by respectable margin and maintainable volume.

Apple wants the server market. One thing that is necessary to get into the server market is dirt cheap clients to act as dumb terminals. The rumors are that Apple is planning on announcing a dirt cheap machine at MWSF. Whether or not this is the dumb terminal I have been expecting for a year has yet to be seen.