[kman42]

I was checking out the keynote this morning and during the Spotlight Finder demo (at 13:50), Steve shows a finder window with Sptolight view, List view, and Icon view. No Column view. Can anyone confirm this?

kman

[Zadian]

Originally posted by kman42:
I was checking out the keynote this morning and during the Spotlight Finder demo (at 13:50), Steve shows a finder window with Sptolight view, List view, and Icon view. No Column view. Can anyone confirm this?

I guess it's just the case in smart folders.

[Gavin]

I thought that was weird too,

I'd guess you're right and it's just for smart folders - col view doesn't make much sense for a found set.

[JCS]

It makes as much sense as it does for any folder.

[wataru]

Originally posted by JCS:
It makes as much sense as it does for any folder.

Why?

[monkeybrain]

It's probably similar to the Find View now, where there is only list view. The purpose of the Smart Folder is partly to eliminate drilling through folders, so Column view isn't needed.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by monkeybrain:
It's probably similar to the Find View now, where there is only list view. The purpose of the Smart Folder is partly to eliminate drilling through folders, so Column view isn't needed.

Exactly. As I understand it, Smart Folders don't contain other folders. There's no need for them, since any files inside them will already be present in the view. Since there are no folders inside them, however, column view becomes pretty useless, since there would only be one column anyway. Given this, why bother using it instead of the more expressive list view?

This isn't to say that column view doesn't have its place. I use it all the time for certain tasks; it's particularly good when you're digging around in Library folders and package contents. But it's not the right tool for the job when it comes to Smart Folders.

[GreyArea]

Originally posted by JCS:
It makes as much sense as it does for any folder.

No it doesn't, because a Smart Folder can contain items that don't all have the same source path.

[chabig]

Exactly. Column doesn't just show you where you are, it shows you where you've been. With a found set of files, column view wouldn't make any sense at all.

Chris

[Uncle Skeleton]

There are already situations where columns don't start at root (home, inside bundles, etc). I'm not sure how spotlight works, but if there are possibilities of subfolders, column view would make sense (moving to the right and not the left). Also column view offers a preview, which I wouldn't use but some people might want.

[littlegreenspud]

Does a Smart Folder only contain files?

I was hoping that I could use it to group folders as well as files.

I have over 1000 photos stored in folders named after the date they were taken, so I have for example 10 photos in a folder called "10 August 04", 20 in "11 August 04" etc. I was hoping to be able to be shown the folders when searching for the holiday photos, not 1000+ photos in a folder which would be too many!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by littlegreenspud:
Does a Smart Folder only contain files?

So far, itappears to do exactly that. Folders contain so little metadata (and indeed, so little metadata makes sense for them) that including them would make little sense.

I have over 1000 photos stored in folders named after the date they were taken, so I have for example 10 photos in a folder called "10 August 04", 20 in "11 August 04" etc. I was hoping to be able to be shown the folders when searching for the holiday photos, not 1000+ photos in a folder which would be too many!

How often do you search for all the photos on your hard drive, particularly when you've got such a well-organized folder structure (and it is quite a nice one, I might add)? Even your own use case doesn't do this. More likely, as your use case suggests, you are going to want photos taken on specific dates, in which case it would show you only these, and not the 1000+-photo situation that you're worried about.

[JCS]

As I understand it, Smart Folders don't contain other folders. There's no need for them, since any files inside them will already be present in the view. Since there are no folders inside them, however, column view becomes pretty useless, since there would only be one column anyway.

Smart Folder can contain items that don't all have the same source path.

Column doesn't just show you where you are, it shows you where you've been. With a found set of files, column view wouldn't make any sense at all.

Code:
Folder: /Users/john/Desktop/Beagles

Applications  >  _john______ >  Applications   > _Beagles__ >  Beagle1.jpg
Developer     >  Shared      >  _Desktop______ > Labs       >  Beagle2.jpg
Documents     >                 Documents      > Dogs          Beagle3.jpg
Library       >                 Library        >               ...
System        >                 Movies         >
_Users_______ >                 Music          >
                                Pictures       >
                                Public         >
                                Sites          >

Folder: /Users/john/Desktop/Labs

Applications  >  _john______ >  Applications   > Beagles    >  Lab1.jpg
Developer     >  Shared      >  _Desktop______ > _Labs_____ >  Lab2.jpg
Documents     >                 Documents      > Dogs          Lab3.jpg
Library       >                 Library        >               ...
System        >                 Movies         >
_Users_______ >                 Music          >
                                Pictures       >
                                Public         >
                                Sites          >

Smart folder: /Users/john/Desktop/Dogs

Applications  >  _john______ >  Applications   > Beagles    >  Beagle1.jpg
Developer     >  Shared      >  _Desktop______ > Labs       >  Beagle2.jpg
Documents     >                 Documents      > _Dogs_____ >  ...
Library       >                 Library        >               Lab1.jpg
System        >                 Movies         >               Lab2.jpg
_Users_______ >                 Music          >               ...
                                Pictures       >
                                Public         >
                                Sites          >

[Millennium]

Originally posted by JCS:
[extremely cool ASCII-Art representation of a smart folder use case shown in column view snipped]

You've got the concept down cold, but that's a very strange use case. If you've already got the dog images sorted into subfolders of a single folder, then why are you using smart folders for this in the first place? Why not put Lab and Beagle into a "Dogs" folder and be done with it? You're trying to use Smart Folders to create supersets of your existing folder structure, when in fact they're meant to contain subsets of your existing structure.

Now that I think of it, littlegreenspud's use case makes a little better sense. let us say that he has his photos sorted neatly in daily folders. he makes a smart folder "Holidays" which includes photos in (for example) photos in January 1, December 25, October 31, and July 4. These show up as a single folder, because that's what he specified he wanted: all photos taken on holidays. If he wanted them sorted into folders, he could have simply gone through his highly-organized folder structure and found them just as easily, if not more so. This is not a flaw in Smart Folders itself; it's a case where Smart Folders aren't needed.

That's what people here don't seem to be getting: as the organization of a folder structure approaches infinity, Smart Folders' usefulness approaches zero. Smart Folders are for people who don't organize well, the people who make up the majority of users out there today. I'm not entirely proud to count myself among their number, but that's the way it goes. Those of you who are finding that Smart Folders aren't going to be terribly useful shouldn't be counting this as a flaw in Smart Folders, but as a strength in yourselves; you have the discipline to actually keep a folder structure that makes them unnecessary.

Not every feature is useful to everyone, after all.

[JCS]

You've got the concept down cold, but that's a very strange use case. If you've already got the dog images sorted into subfolders of a single folder, then why are you using smart folders for this in the first place?

I was trying to save myself from going crazy with the ASCII art! Just imagine that thee dog picts are scattered all over the drive. It doesn't change my point: the fact that smart folders are "leaf nodes" and don't contain any other folders doesn't exclude them from being used sensibly with column view.

Smart folders exist somewhere, and it makes perfect sense to use column view to navigate to a smart folder just as if it was any other "leaf node" folder.

My secondary point was that column view makes no sense as a view for "a folder" because, once you go into column view, that "folder" is now a "browser" and any changes to window state become mysterious and arbitrary. (Yada yada, you know that whole spiel.) So my earlier comment that column view for smart folders makes "as much sense as it does for any folder" can and should be taken both ways

That's what people here don't seem to be getting: as the organization of a folder structure approaches infinity, Smart Folders' usefulness approaches zero. Smart Folders are for people who don't organize well

I disagree. The benefit to "organizers" is that a smart folder can cut across their carefully constructed hierarchy. An organizer's folder hierarchy may store documents by client, for example, but a smart folder (or series of smart folders) could partition them by content or date. It's a tool for organizing your already-organized items along different axes.

For "non-organizers", the creation of a smart folder is really an act of organization in itself. It's just a different kind of act: a "lazier" one because they don't have to keep the contents updated or worry about where things are saved. So there are benefits to both kinds of people.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

So what is the word? is it in or out? All I use is column view, I love it.

[chabig]

It's in. Trust me. I played with it at MacWorld in front of an OS X engineer. The little column view button changes when you're in a smart folder. Otherwise, it's the same column view button you already know and love.

Chris

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by chabig:
It's in. Trust me. I played with it at MacWorld in front of an OS X engineer. The little column view button changes when you're in a smart folder. Otherwise, it's the same column view button you already know and love.

Chris

That's a bit of a confusing interface isn't it?

[chabig]

I could grant you that. That the small button changes its appearance slightly is bound to be missed by many. I should have tried cmd-3 to see what happens, but I didn't think of it.

Chris

[CharlesS]

So what happens if I have a situation like JCS illustrated above, and I navigate into a Smart Folder while in Column View? Does it automatically switch me out into some other view? That could get annoying really fast.

Column View still makes sense with Smart Folders, especially if you take JCS's example and add a few other smart folders into the same folder. In Column View, you could then quickly switch between several searches - you can't do that as quickly with any other view.

[chabig]

OK. Here's how it works...

If you are in a smart folder, the navigation buttons in the toolbar allow you to set the view as icon, list, or spotlight. But you can still choose Column view from the View menu, or type command-3 and you'll get column view. In an smart folder, column view is anchored just like the home folder normally is. in other words, the leftmost column is the smart folder and all navigation is done to the right. You still get previews just like column view. It IS column view. But since each file may have a different hierarchy, the path of the selected folder is displayed at the bottom of the window. And it's interactive. If you double-click on a folder in the path it takes you there.

Chris

[MPMoriarty]

Sounds like Apple really spent some time integrating Spotlight into the Finder. They seem to have thought of a lot of the little details.

Mike

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by chabig:
OK. Here's how it works...

If you are in a smart folder, the navigation buttons in the toolbar allow you to set the view as icon, list, or spotlight. But you can still choose Column view from the View menu, or type command-3 and you'll get column view. In an smart folder, column view is anchored just like the home folder normally is. in other words, the leftmost column is the smart folder and all navigation is done to the right. You still get previews just like column view. It IS column view. But since each file may have a different hierarchy, the path of the selected folder is displayed at the bottom of the window. And it's interactive. If you double-click on a folder in the path it takes you there.

Chris

Sounds pretty good. The only thing that disturbs me is the column view button changing to something else - that seems like it could be confusing and not so good UI design. Maybe they could add a fourth button, that would be grayed out when not in a smart folder. Granted it's non-ideal, but at least we wouldn't have buttons jumping around. I dunno...

edit: hukd on fonix werkd fir me

[chabig]

I think I agree. Having four buttons with some grayed out makes more sense.

Chris

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Millennium:
That's what people here don't seem to be getting: as the organization of a folder structure approaches infinity, Smart Folders' usefulness approaches zero. Smart Folders are for people who don't organize well, the people who make up the majority of users out there today. I'm not entirely proud to count myself among their number, but that's the way it goes. Those of you who are finding that Smart Folders aren't going to be terribly useful shouldn't be counting this as a flaw in Smart Folders, but as a strength in yourselves; you have the discipline to actually keep a folder structure that makes them unnecessary.

Good points there, BUT there is another aspect of modern data structures where smart folders make perfect sense:

JCS has his dog pigtures sorted nicely. In his Pictures folder, most likely, NOT on the desktop.

However, JCS also has a couple of scans of his dogs' pedigrees, saved pdf versions of his online dog food purchase receipts, email exchanges with the kennel, and a couple of word documents. Added are a few videoclips of his dogs, of others' dogs, and, some of all of the above not directly related to his dogs, but to dogs in general.

How do you sort that? By document type? By association with each animal? Owner?

Another example: I have quite a bit of stored information on various musical instruments. That includes sound samples, schematics, manuals, images, text snippets from emails, modification instructions, catalogs, etc.

Do I sort that by instrument? I'd like to, but that would mean that images or catalogs pertaining to multiple instruments wouldn't be sortable or wouldn't show up in my "TR-808" folder AND my "minimoog" folder unless I created aliases or multiple copies.

I'd also like to keep my schematics grouped together. As well as my manuals. But the images should be in iPhoto, but still show up in the individual instruments' folders. I need my various drum machines' loops and samples to stay in a centralized loop library where my audio software can find it, but I'd still want the relevant ones to show up in my "LinnDrum" folder.


"funny", "various synth documents", "VCS", "Rehberg", "religious", "pictures" - where does it go?

Stuff like that isn't sloppy organizing, it's simply a fact of life. I've spent countless hours over the past fifteen years cracking my head over how to organize my files, structuring and restructuring over and over again as my needs/interests changed and the number of file types and complexity increased.

-s*

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by JCS:
I disagree. The benefit to "organizers" is that a smart folder can cut across their carefully constructed hierarchy. An organizer's folder hierarchy may store documents by client, for example, but a smart folder (or series of smart folders) could partition them by content or date. It's a tool for organizing your already-organized items along different axes.

Or, I could have just read that post.

OTOH, it *did* give me the opportunity to post an image that I hold very, very dear.

Doesn't happen too often.

[kman42]

Originally posted by chabig:
OK. Here's how it works...

If you are in a smart folder, the navigation buttons in the toolbar allow you to set the view as icon, list, or spotlight. But you can still choose Column view from the View menu, or type command-3 and you'll get column view. In an smart folder, column view is anchored just like the home folder normally is. in other words, the leftmost column is the smart folder and all navigation is done to the right. You still get previews just like column view. It IS column view. But since each file may have a different hierarchy, the path of the selected folder is displayed at the bottom of the window. And it's interactive. If you double-click on a folder in the path it takes you there.

Chris

A couple questions. The Home folder isn't always anchored, only if you select it from the Finder Shelf (what's that called now?). This is true for any folder placed in the Shelf. However, if you browse to the Home folder from the Hard Drive, then it is anchored in the hard drive and the Home folder is just part of the column hierarchy. Is this how it works for Smart Folders?

Can you put Smart Folders anywhere you want or do they only go in the Shelf?

Finally, did we decide if folders show up in Smart Folders? They do show up in Spotlight searches; there is a category for them. I would expect the Smart Folder to be similar to this.

thanks,
kman

[sodamnregistered2]

I find column view to be very frustrating.

The columns need to resize in a "smart" way. As it is now, you can rarely read the file name and the columns shift around in a stupid manner.

When I use column view, seems I waste a lot of energy resizing columns and sliding columns around.

It's a good view, but, there is a level of hassle built-into it that takes a lot of the joy out.