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ashtoash · Feb 22, 2005, 11:49 AM

Last night while the power was out for 12 hours (well okay only 3 of them on my iBook) Apple's flaws stuck out more since I obviously wasn't on the internet. I was trying to edit a document in pages and various other "native" OS X apps without a font menu. Instead I had a mondol window with fonts to select from, that "oh yes!" could be dragged (on my HUGE screen 12' ibook!) smaller to just show the menus of the fonts. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Why can't I have my fonts as WYSIWYG by default in OS X? Another window to use a f*ck font? But you put the tracking options in the menubar and NOT in the dialog box? Subscript/Superscript in the convient menu and not the dialog? WTF? Sure I could have downloaded an unsanity "haxie" but not having internet... Seriously every designer I know bitches to high heaven about the lack of proper font menus. Can any "normal" person please shed some light on this stupidity?

Thanks.

jzdziarski · Feb 22, 2005, 12:33 PM

What's a f*ck font?

Chuckit · Feb 22, 2005, 12:39 PM

Since this was more of an angry rant than a reasoned critique, I'm not sure what light there is to shed. Aside from the lack of WYSIWYG, it's not clear what exactly you're saying is wrong (for instance, the problem with a central font panel).

ApeInTheShell · Feb 22, 2005, 01:01 PM

You should change the title of this thread to something related to your post because we are here to troubleshoot problems. If we cannot understand that your beef with Apple is font management or because of a blackout in your community font managment is screwed up than no one will be able to diagnose the problem if there is one.

I suggest you write feedback to Apple about fonts in Pages or in the system. Perhaps post it on the Apple Forums in the support section of their page.

f1000 · Feb 22, 2005, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by ashtoash:
Why can't I have my fonts as WYSIWYG by default in OS X?

I suggest that you keep the application Font Book in your Dock. It comes in handy when you're trying to choose a font. I even like Font Book more than the WYSIWYG menu in Word.

ashtoash · Feb 22, 2005, 04:06 PM

So rather than select them from a menu or even having that option I'm forced to open a window? The issue with this thread (Troubleshooting AND discussion) is to see if this issue bothers anyone else and to get apple's attention on it. Doesn't it seem cumbersome to only choose fonts from another open window???

CharlesS · Feb 22, 2005, 04:09 PM

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

Chuckit · Feb 22, 2005, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by ashtoash:
Doesn't it seem cumbersome to only choose fonts from another open window???

It doesn't seem any more cumbersome to use a window than a menu, no, and in the case of font families it's actually less annoying, since the submenu often messes me up when I'm trying to work fast. I think at worst it's a wash, and at best it's good to have a nonmoving target. Unless by "cumbersome" you mean "takes up too much room on small displays," in which case I guess you have a point, though not a point that concerns many Mac users.

- - e r i k - - · Feb 22, 2005, 05:31 PM

As a person with a bazillion fonts I think the font panel is a godsend. However, I wish it also included alignments and sub/supers as you said.

chris v · Feb 22, 2005, 05:47 PM

I do wish that the Font window in Text Edit didn't always float over the document, though. It would be nice to have it stay open in the background. I guess they see it as a "palette," like in an Adobe app, or something.

Superchicken · Feb 22, 2005, 06:00 PM

I think the font panel should be expanded not gotten rid of. That said, I'd like to also see it integrated with the inspector in pages, having it and the spell check open at the same time takes up a LOT of space on a 12 inch screen. I think one of these days I'll have to eventually get a bigger external display.

CatOne · Feb 23, 2005, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by ashtoash:
Last night while the power was out for 12 hours (well okay only 3 of them on my iBook) Apple's flaws stuck out more since I obviously wasn't on the internet. I was trying to edit a document in pages and various other "native" OS X apps without a font menu. Instead I had a mondol window with fonts to select from, that "oh yes!" could be dragged (on my HUGE screen 12' ibook!) smaller to just show the menus of the fonts. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Why can't I have my fonts as WYSIWYG by default in OS X? Another window to use a f*ck font? But you put the tracking options in the menubar and NOT in the dialog box? Subscript/Superscript in the convient menu and not the dialog? WTF? Sure I could have downloaded an unsanity "haxie" but not having internet... Seriously every designer I know bitches to high heaven about the lack of proper font menus. Can any "normal" person please shed some light on this stupidity?

Thanks.

You could buy You! Fonts for like $30 and get a WYSIWYG font menu. I don't particularly care.

IamBob · Feb 23, 2005, 11:28 AM

The only problem I have is that the font panel ignores my scroll-wheel, forcing me to carefully mouse into the tiny scrollbar or over the even smaller scroll-arrows.

If you're a mousing-pro it's not too bad (just slightly annoying) but for someone like my Mom it can be a real pain - I just get her used to using a scroll-wheel and she can't use it in the font panel and freaks out, "uh oh, I think I broke the scroll-thingy!"

CharlesS · Feb 23, 2005, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by IamBob:
The only problem I have is that the font panel ignores my scroll-wheel, forcing me to carefully mouse into the tiny scrollbar or over the even smaller scroll-arrows.

If you're a mousing-pro it's not too bad (just slightly annoying) but for someone like my Mom it can be a real pain - I just get her used to using a scroll-wheel and she can't use it in the font panel and freaks out, "uh oh, I think I broke the scroll-thingy!"

The scroll wheel works in the font panel when I try it.

With that said, I actually agree with the OP on this point (and this point alone). It would be nice if we had the option of a plain old Font menu as it generally takes fewer clicks to select a font via a menu (click menu, click font) than with the font panel (open font panel, click font, close font panel).

Brass · Feb 23, 2005, 05:43 PM

For a word processor, (and other text intensive applications), I really would have thought that a "Font" menu would be a priority. NOT a submenu of the "Format" menu, but a top-level menu of it's own. I'm disappointed that Apple have completely dropped the ball on this since OS 9.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Font Panel, but a Font menu really would help a LOT in some applications. Especially for those of us with small screens, who cannot afford to have the additional panel open.

sushiism · Feb 23, 2005, 06:11 PM

Every designer I know and myself included hates WYSIWYG font menus, I know what my fonts look like and dont need to see tiny garbled messes trying to read the names of each of them from that.

Brass · Feb 23, 2005, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
Every designer I know and myself included hates WYSIWYG font menus, I know what my fonts look like and dont need to see tiny garbled messes trying to read the names of each of them from that.

WYSIWYG is only part of the issue here though. It would be nice if there was the option, because some people love to see the menu (or list) WYWSIWYG, while others detest it.

However, the main issue (at least for me) is that there actually is not font menu, whether WYSIWYG or not. As CharlesS posted, instead of simply being able to choose a Font from a Font menu (1 click & drag operation), we currently have to choose a menu command to open the font panel, scrool through the font list, click the font, close the font panel. This is crazy for a word processing application where choosing fonts is a frequent operation.

Virtually all other word processors have a top level "Font" menu. Some (such as AppleWorks) have the user-configurable option of showing the Font names in their own typface (WYSIWYG).

IamBob · Feb 23, 2005, 06:58 PM

The scroll wheel works in the font panel when I try it.

Hey, guess what...here too! Alright, who slipped the crack in my coffee?

DavidHossack · Feb 23, 2005, 08:45 PM

why don't you try resizing the font palette. Something very cool happens when you make it really small.

Try it and report back.

maybe a part answer

Brass · Feb 23, 2005, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
why don't you try resizing the font palette. Something very cool happens when you make it really small.

Try it and report back.

maybe a part answer

Nice!

Still not as good as a "Font" menu in the menu bar (especially for novice users, which is about 90% of people), but it's a reasonable compromise for more experienced users with small screens.

BTW, are you an icon designer? Your name is familiar.

leperkuhn · Feb 23, 2005, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Brass:

BTW, are you an icon designer? Your name is familiar.

You're probably thinking of this guy..

http://www.davidhasselhoff.com/

omar96 · Feb 24, 2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
You're probably thinking of this guy..

http://www.davidhasselhoff.com/

Michael Knight makes icons?

DavidHossack · Feb 24, 2005, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Brass:
Nice!

Still not as good as a "Font" menu in the menu bar (especially for novice users, which is about 90% of people), but it's a reasonable compromise for more experienced users with small screens.

BTW, are you an icon designer? Your name is familiar.

hehe. I do dapple a bit and have helped out on some apps. I did do some icons for FaxCenter (formerly Cocoa eFax) and I did the current X-Plane icons.

I don't have curly hair though and are more likely to be the rescued in the water than the rescuer.

poocat · Feb 25, 2005, 08:34 AM

The thing i hate most about the font pallete is exactly that. It isn't a window, and will not respond propperly. For example, if you open a chat window in Adium, and hit apple-t, you get the font menu. now hit apple-w, and you lose your CHAT WINDOW not your font window.

What?! Why does it not retain system focus!? It does NOT behave like a window! It cannot be apple-~'d to. It is a pain in the ....

That's my personal opinion. Now on to more facts.

Why, oh why, if i switch (lets keep using Adium for example's sake) to Chinese, via the language menu bar item, and type some Chinese, and switch back to English, does it NOT SWITCH BACK TO THE ENGLISH FONT?! No. It remains in the Chinese font, which means i have to hit apple-t, mouse to "recently used fonts", select helvetica, and hit apple-t again. All together too much mousing for a series of key commands! Why can't it just remember what font i was using and switch back? It switches TO, why not reverse?

Yes, i've asked Apple. A very angry rant, i know, but this is a daily failing for me.

wataru · Feb 25, 2005, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by poocat:
Why, oh why, if i switch (lets keep using Adium for example's sake) to Chinese, via the language menu bar item, and type some Chinese, and switch back to English, does it NOT SWITCH BACK TO THE ENGLISH FONT?!

This one bothers me too. I wish there was an easy fix.

SMacTech · Feb 25, 2005, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by poocat:
The thing i hate most about the font pallete is exactly that. It isn't a window, and will not respond propperly. For example, if you open a chat window in Adium, and hit apple-t, you get the font menu. now hit apple-w, and you lose your CHAT WINDOW not your font window.

It's a palette window, which always floats on top and acts like most every other palette out there. You need to close it using the close box.

I use the font panel in my app and it behaves exactly the same way, just like it does in PhotoShop, InDesign, etc.

You will notice that the close widget on it is not active until you mouse over it.

leperkuhn · Feb 25, 2005, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by poocat:
The thing i hate most about the font pallete is exactly that. It isn't a window, and will not respond propperly. For example, if you open a chat window in Adium, and hit apple-t, you get the font menu. now hit apple-w, and you lose your CHAT WINDOW not your font window.

What?! Why does it not retain system focus!? It does NOT behave like a window! It cannot be apple-~'d to. It is a pain in the ....

That's my personal opinion. Now on to more facts.

Why, oh why, if i switch (lets keep using Adium for example's sake) to Chinese, via the language menu bar item, and type some Chinese, and switch back to English, does it NOT SWITCH BACK TO THE ENGLISH FONT?! No. It remains in the Chinese font, which means i have to hit apple-t, mouse to "recently used fonts", select helvetica, and hit apple-t again. All together too much mousing for a series of key commands! Why can't it just remember what font i was using and switch back? It switches TO, why not reverse?

Yes, i've asked Apple. A very angry rant, i know, but this is a daily failing for me.

Can't you just hit apple - t again?

Might not stick out with 1 pallet open, but when working in photoshop or a program with a dozen pallets open, wanting to switch between 2 documents can take up to 14 clicks. Absurd.

My 2 cents.

CharlesS · Feb 25, 2005, 05:56 PM

Another thing that gets on my nerves about the Cocoa font system (since we're talking about this) is the way you can't go to a non-alphanumeric font, like Symbol, type an 'a', and get an α. Instead, it'll switch back to one of the standard fonts like Helvetica and type an 'a'. The only way to get an α, seemingly, is to go to the Character Palette. Very annoying and makes me feel like I'm using Windows... argh!

Chuckit · Feb 25, 2005, 06:21 PM

You can type in Symbol. It uses Greek characters, so you have to turn on Greek input in the International preferences in order to type in it. I agree that this method is slightly bizarre, but there it is.

DavidHossack · Feb 25, 2005, 06:33 PM

the best feature about the font palette is that when you have amassed 100s of fonts like I have-some date from when I used a Mac Classic in the early 90s- you can search the list rather than scrolling all the way.

I think this feature is great.

CharlesS · Feb 25, 2005, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
You can type in Symbol. It uses Greek characters, so you have to turn on Greek input in the International preferences in order to type in it. I agree that this method is slightly bizarre, but there it is.

Ooookay, and since I didn't know about that, then I'm fairly confident a newbie wouldn't either.

But, what about some other non-alphanumeric font, like Webdings? I'll bet there's not a keyboard layout to type in that font...

Chuckit · Feb 25, 2005, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
But, what about some other non-alphanumeric font, like Webdings? I'll bet there's not a keyboard layout to type in that font...

Nope. Of course, it kind of makes sense, since you can't meaningfully type in that font. (Not saying it's convenient, but philosophically...)