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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac OS X > Man, this is going to take *forever*...

Man, this is going to take *forever*...
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Mar 3, 2001, 11:50 PM
 
Have you noticed the forums recently? Negative. Slow. Insubstantial postings about internal builds. Hrumph.

I realized that it's going to take so so so long for March 24 to arrive.

So long. Oh, so long. It'll be a very long time until we can confirm this as FUD-speak or truth. Too long. This is pretty terrible. 21 days? That's actually a long time of this kind of cnet-ish negativism. yuck.

The flow of interesting new information is also slowing down dramatically. What is going on? Apple has been dead quiet for the last six months. They haven't said anything about where Mac OS X is going, how it's doing, Cheetah, Orient, nothing. There's been lots of wincent-ish stuff but nothing from Apple. All of the stuff has been allowed to go on pretty unnoticed by Apple Legal. One or two Cease & Desist's here and there, but nothing to say that they're cracking down.

And now ... the Product Manager for X goes to C|Net and announces that DVD, iTunes, and iMovie will likely not make it?! Where the hell did this come from? This took me *completely* by surprise. Not that they won't make it, rather the announcement. Why announce now? It makes no sense whatsoever.

3 weeks before Mac OS X is out and they suddenly make an announcement that 3 applications are not going to make it and some insubstantial FUD that sleep won't work, etc. This seems very strange considering that Apple has been completely silent about Mac OS X for the last six months (apart from the MWSF thing).

It's going to take forever for OS X to get here so we can conclusively see what's happened to our OS! March 24 is further away than you think.

I'm not one to deny the facts, but there's something fishy going on...

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[This message has been edited by gorgonzola (edited 03-03-2001).]
"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 12:04 AM
 
Going along with what another thread had to say (I couldn't find it, sorry), perhaps Apple is throwing all of us a curve. Think about it.

1. Keep quiet for months
2. Have product manager talk about possibility of lack of features to create FUD, disarray, anger, and confusion among users and media
3. Release OS X with new unannounced features not available in 4kxx build leaked to public + DVD Video + iTunes + iMovie + tons of 3rd party OS X apps available immediately.

The dramatic reversal would be so great as to overwhelm all users (more so than if there had been no FUD, confusion and chaos). I hate to speculate about such things, but I was a little surprised that the product engineer was allowed to reveal such things before releasing the final product. I also belive that perhaps Apple was probably giving everyone a heads-up so as not to alarm everyone on March 24. (It would definitely be a bigger fiasco that they're dealing with now.)

I, too, think that March 24 will take FOREVER to come. Plus, I'll have to wait an extra two days for it to come by UPS Ground. Time will tell

krove

[edit] I found that conspiracy forum: http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Forum3/HTML/003119.html

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*The next sentence is entirely true...
*The previous sentence is most decidedly false...

[This message has been edited by krove (edited 03-04-2001).]

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Mar 4, 2001, 12:05 AM
 
Apple's site has a cute little counter.

Now it's getting late in the game, but I could imagine the whole project being scrapped. And they can start again, and another decade can go by with an ancient OS.

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Mar 4, 2001, 12:06 AM
 
True. I like MacOS X, but seems that the apple employees like more to
reply to forums like this and say "Ey, its a beta, is a build! wait for the final!" and now
all the people that truested this things, see the reality.
I'm addicted to MacOS X but dissapointed with the incompetence of Apple to guide the construction of the new os and improve it with more velocity, compatiblity. and must-have applications.
Moreno | manuel.moreno@netcabo.pt
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 12:09 AM
 
Someone at the AI boards went as far as to say that this was throwing us a huge curve and that Apple would release Puma in three weeks. Cough. Not happening.

I also doubt that it'll be some magical build with iMovie (I'm still betting on iTunes) and DVD support.

But OTOH, I think there's something weird going on. How can OS X not support sleep properly, for crying out loud? Two months ago Apple engineers were saying that you weren't supposed to restart the computer -- sleep/wakeup would be all you needed under normal operation (some installations may require restarts, probably).

Very weird. I don't know what to think. On the one hand, this is very un-Apple to release this kind of information on an unreleased product. Also, they've kept silent for six months (save MWSF), why speak now? And why so negative? Why the Product Manager?! On the other hand, I still have reservations in believing in some magical 1.0 version that will do everything.

The truth is likely somewhere in between.

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"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
urp
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Mar 4, 2001, 12:09 AM
 
Well here's the latest from the omnigroup listserv [though you probably already seeeeen it]:

Rothenberg claims his editor put then bad words in and he's working on another column to explain his position of the whole hoo-haa. More fun in the new world.

It is surprising that so many builds have leaked, but this is usually the case -- OS8, 8.5, 9.0, 9.1. In this case the frequency of builds has been startling. I expect the time between March 24 and MWNY will be much more interesting than the next 20 days.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 12:16 AM
 
The later builds are missing some basic Powerbook type apps. You can't set processor for speed or to save power, and hardrive spin down adjust isn't as granular as Classic. I think the sleep issue is Powerbook related -- recall that WinNT4 never really worked on portables as far as energy management.

Bereskin remarks are a good pre-emptive strike. Can you imagine if they sprung this on March 24. People would be even crazier than they are now. Look its perfect timing -- it comes out on Thursday/Friday and by next week the major press will have something else going on. Tiny blip for non-Mac phreaks.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 12:18 AM
 
Originally posted by moreno:
True. I like MacOS X, but seems that the apple employees like more to
reply to forums like this and say "Ey, its a beta, is a build! wait for the final!" and now
all the people that truested this things, see the reality.
I'm addicted to MacOS X but dissapointed with the incompetence of Apple to guide the construction of the new os and improve it with more velocity, compatiblity. and must-have applications.
Disappointed with the incompetence of Apple?

Ha, little do you know, man...

You obviously haven't seen the ridiculous pace they've been working at. They're designing this thing down to the pixel. They're in the middle of Darwin development, Quartz tuning, Aqua polishing, Cocoa upgrading, Carbon testing, and Classic booting. All simultaneously. They have a LOT of work to do and they're being very careful. They're working on all sorts of things, and Apple's back with a vengeance.

To quote a Mac OS X developer from Apple:

We can't have a skanky OS like Linux upstaging us, so we need to get this done.

I'm not one to say that Linux is skanky, but these guys know what they're up against (most unix/linux users fart above their ass, as they say in france -- think Apple can't build a "real unix," or even better, a "real OS") and they're determined that their work will cause a dent in the universe once again.

To quote Steve a la Lao Tzu:

He who speaks does not know; he who knows does not speak.

Let's see how true this is come March 24.

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Mar 4, 2001, 01:02 AM
 
Why hasn't Apple said anything in the past 6 months? Well, because they thought they could get everything done. Now that the deadline is very near they are cramming and panicking.
Apple product manager is trying to lessen the blow by letting everyone not to act to surprised that some things like a DVD player, iMovie and iTunes might not make it.

kinda like George Lucas was telling everyone no to get to excited about the last Star Wars movie shortly before it came out because it was being overhyped and he was afraid that fans would be let down.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 01:18 AM
 
Gorgon - I'm with ya. I was initiaially psyched about these forums, but have noticed that lately they've become an anti-Apple bitch session. My response is - Who cares? I rarely visit these boards anymore because they are no longer an informative source. If I want to read anti-Apple illogical rants, I'll head over to PCWeek.

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Mar 4, 2001, 01:36 AM
 
gorgonzola, well said.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 01:52 AM
 
this thread is starting to sound alot like the ten other threads ive been silly enough to read since the cnet thing. personally the next 24 days are going to seem like the march towards xmas when i was a kid. and frankly, all you that have been downloading builds that werent made available to you and stressing about how crappy they are, or are commenting about builds that have been distributed to you under NDA are acting like a bunch of kids sneaking around the house looking for presents.

this is the most exciting time in apple's history. (wait i take that back--the introduction of the imac was pretty exciting too!)

"He who speaks does not know; he who knows does not speak."

once again i will humbly suggest that there are more important things to consider: learing about all the neat things we will be able to do so we can show off to others and help other mac users make the transition...

and if vince is out there: yes, i work for discreet, makers of 3ds max. unfortunately, we are not going to support osx in the near future. but combustion (a 3d compositing and painting application) runs multithreaded, supports quicktime, and is optimized for dual g4's plus altivec. its a very powerful app. we were invited to demo it on stage at seybold in san francisco and a few of my coworkers met the man himself.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 02:13 AM
 
Originally posted by ppmax:
this thread is starting to sound alot like the ten other threads ive been silly enough to read since the cnet thing. personally the next 24 days are going to seem like the march towards xmas when i was a kid. and frankly, all you that have been downloading builds that werent made available to you and stressing about how crappy they are, or are commenting about builds that have been distributed to you under NDA are acting like a bunch of kids sneaking around the house looking for presents.
I haven't downloaded anything.

My present from Apple will be untainted.

And oh so scrumplicious! (If we ever get to March 24)

And actually, this isn't a positive thread nor a negative thread, it's sort of in between. We're in a bit of a limbo and don't know what to think; that's why the wait will be so long.

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Mar 4, 2001, 06:14 AM
 
I think some of the posters have hit it right on the head. Either:

a) DVD playback, iTunes and copmany will actually not make the cut for March 24. Bereskin goes on record in a on-line only Mac site, read only by Mac Heads. Said MacHeads have 3 weeks to bitch and moan on a web board somewher ein the dark recesses of the Internet. They get it out of their system amongst themselves. When on March 24 we see that OS X indeed has no DVD playback, it doesn't even make the news.

b) This is a deliberate snow job to show how wrong rumor sites and web-board "inside info" can be. On March 24, OS X is released with all the trimmings and one or two extra features nobody was thinking about. All the whiners look like idiots and think twice next time about publicly moaning and bitching about something they have never seen and they have no clue about.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 06:44 AM
 
Let's stop all this bullsh!t adn wait for March 24th....

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georgius
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:44 AM
 
I think that the next 20 days wilbe the "anti-climax" before the climax.

Everything will start to slow down.

And when the 24th comes...we'll all either be crapping our pants with anticipation and excitement, or we'll be heavily dissapointed.

But I have to agree with "urp". The months between March 24th and MWNY will be hot. A slew of products will be released, people will start properly developing...you get my point.

And when MWNY comes along...well let me put it like this...

You want OS X compatability and products...?

YOU'LL HAVE IT!!!


Play it cool



[This message has been edited by georgius (edited 03-04-2001).]
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:59 AM
 
Originally posted by dogzilla:
I rarely visit these boards anymore because they are no longer an informative source.
Finding out what OS X can not do is not informative?

[This message has been edited by Milio (edited 03-04-2001).]
     
georgius
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Mar 4, 2001, 10:01 AM
 
Originally posted by Milio:
Finding out what OS X can not do is not informative?

[This message has been edited by Milio (edited 03-04-2001).]
Of course it is informative...and this place is sure cheaper than Apple's technical support line!

Play it cool



[This message has been edited by georgius (edited 03-04-2001).]
     
urp
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Mar 4, 2001, 10:48 AM
 
i don't think it a lack of information that is the problem -- its the signal to noise ratio has gotten pretty bad. Finding out about features that still don't work, or things that now work now involves reading about the either the death of Apple or the death of Microsoft wrapped in some hysterics language of doom or ecstasy. And its not going to get better -- unless everyone gets it out of thier system soon.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 01:57 PM
 
Originally posted by urp:
i don't think it a lack of information that is the problem -- its the signal to noise ratio has gotten pretty bad.
Very true. And as you said, I think everyone needs to get it out of their system, since there are two very possible outcomes: the article was true, or smokescreen. People need to complain and get it out (I did it myself once or twice when someone said there would be no Rage Pro drivers).

Getting from March 24 to MWNY will be easier than getting from today to March 24, I think. We have some idea of what kinds of things will come at MWNY, although I did some reading at apple.com which suggests that Puma is a lot more than just a completion of Cheetah's feature set. The point of this thread was not to speculate; I was just making a comment about how the wait is going to be difficult since no one really knows what to expect.

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Mar 4, 2001, 02:10 PM
 
This doesn't have much to do with the original topic, but:

I think the Mac OS X builds were forked. Not as a smokescreen or a coverup or anything. I don't think Apple is leaking deliberately. But if you look at the Mac OS X bugtracker (part of the Darwin site), then people are already talking about security fixes and things that they're making for the Puma build. This is rather strange considering that they'd probably finish Cheetah, and then continue working on Cheetah and add Puma's additional feature set. It seems as if this is not the case -- they forked the builds and there are some people already working on things that are to go into Puma because they won't be finished by next week. Right now, the builds are likely very similar (i.e. they obviously don't have a build that supports DVD) but differ in some minute things. All of these changes are still likely in alpha or development stages or something, but more stuff will get added because they'll add some stuff from OSXS2 and some stuff that they just want to add (DVD etc).

This doesn't really mean anything concerning March 24, but I think that this may be where the whole 5L rumor started.

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Mar 4, 2001, 02:41 PM
 
I'm pretty sure things like "mass move to Puma" means they can't fix that bug, or add that feature now, so it's priority gets delayed until a further build while they continue what they can do on the current build. I could be wrong of course.


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Mar 4, 2001, 03:57 PM
 
Originally posted by JB72:
I'm pretty sure things like "mass move to Puma" means they can't fix that bug, or add that feature now, so it's priority gets delayed until a further build while they continue what they can do on the current build. I could be wrong of course.
Exactly. This would make sense -- I think it means to rip a certain feature or fix out of the Cheetah build line and move it to the Puma line. This would also fit into the theory that the builds are forked; one is Puma (and likely has more features, fixes, but everything is probably alpha or beta stage), and the other is Cheetah, where everything is close to finished.

The thing that confuses me is "mass move to Orient" -- did they just rename Orient as Puma, or is it some third thing?

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Mar 4, 2001, 04:10 PM
 
From what I can understand, I think Puma is 1.01, while Orient is 1.1. Again, not sure though.

I'm not sure how simulataneous the builds would be. I would expect that a move to Puma would be worked on after Cheetah is GM.

Anyone more in the know care to comment?

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Mar 4, 2001, 04:51 PM
 
Originally posted by TheJoshu:
Apple's site has a cute little counter.

Now it's getting late in the game, but I could imagine the whole project being scrapped. And they can start again, and another decade can go by with an ancient OS.

Talk about FUD...
     
urp
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Mar 4, 2001, 06:05 PM
 
Okay Gorg -- you've been peeking through the Darwin bug list and checking things out. I'm sure that where Rothenberg got his build names from -- there's Kodiak [PBeta build], Cheetah, Puma, Orient and then there's the Bageehra build -- what's that one?

<GMT19-Jan-2001 19:41:33GMT> R.S.:
Bagheera1L2 takes much too long to boot and just get to the login screen. There are two extremely long points:
1) starting the secure server takes maybe more than 2 minutes.
2) after all the startup information is displayed, the user is thrown into a blue screen for, maybe, over a minute before the log in screen finally comes up.
Just a little something to keep you busy
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:31 PM
 
Just a little something to keep you busy
Hee, little do you know.

There's definitely something strange going on with these build numbers. This is something else I found:

<GMT08-Mar-2000 20:30:31GMT> Kim Koefoed Vorrath:
Moving to MBFB GM (FO1). - BRB

<GMT23-May-2000 00:30:32GMT> S.C.:
Reassigning all GM bugs to Beta.

<GMT21-Jun-2000 19:16:37GMT> U.V.:
no resources to fix this for Beta. Moving to Cheetah

<GMT25-Oct-2000 23:46:23GMT> P.K.:
P1 -> P2, we hope to get to this by Cheetah.

<GMT22-Nov-2000 04:00:06GMT> U.V.:
I need fix for 2570991 before I attempt to fix this bug.

<GMT18-Dec-2000 04:46:11GMT> P.K.:
Postponing to Orient.

<GMT19-Feb-2001 23:45:48GMT> U.V.:
Puma :-) Also added the "Open Source" Keyword.
What the hell does "reassigning all GM bugs to Beta" mean? What's up with the smiley after Puma? Something's up...

I'm off to dig deeper.

[edit: the one guy who's in the thick of this is umeshv@apple.com, but I dare not email him asking what the hell Puma/Orient/Bagheera are]

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[This message has been edited by gorgonzola (edited 03-04-2001).]
"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:45 PM
 
Sorry.

I just refreshed the page and found that I had blue stars.

I was in a slight state of disbelief since no one from MacNN emailed me about this, but I guess I'm the new mod for this forum.

wish me luck, I'll do my best

[This message has been edited by gorgonzola (edited 03-04-2001).]
"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:48 PM
 
Oh and BTW Bagheera is the name of the black panther in the Jungle Book.
     
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Mar 4, 2001, 09:50 PM
 
Originally posted by urp:
Oh and BTW Bagheera is the name of the black panther in the Jungle Book.
I know. He rocked -- best character in that thing.

Better than that loser Mowgli anyway...

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"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
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Mar 5, 2001, 03:14 AM
 
When will the Mufasa build be released?

JLL
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Mar 5, 2001, 04:43 AM
 
Originally posted by gorgonzola:
What the hell does "reassigning all GM bugs to Beta" mean?
I'm intrigued by that myself. Note that this statement was made in May 2000. Sounds to me like Apple really wanted to get OS X 1.0 out the door last summer. When it became clear that wouldn't happen, they "reassigned" all those bugs from the supposed Golden Master build to the Public Beta.

Just a thought -- and a really unimportant one at that ...

[This message has been edited by happypork (edited 03-05-2001).]
     
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Mar 5, 2001, 06:20 AM
 
Originally posted by gorgonzola:
I just refreshed the page and found that I had blue stars.
Well done! Try moving this topic over to the Peripherals forum just for the hell of it. Do we have to take you more seriously now?

Chris
     
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Mar 5, 2001, 10:16 PM
 
Originally posted by clebin:
Well done! Try moving this topic over to the Peripherals forum just for the hell of it. Do we have to take you more seriously now?
The temptation to move threads into random forums is difficult to bear, I admit.

iBook, iBook, iBook ... Objective C runtime? What the heck is that?

And the last bit ... I doubt you will, Chris, so it doesn't really matter. As georgius would say, play it cool.

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"Do not be too positive about things. You may be in error." (C. F. Lawlor, The Mixicologist)
     
   
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