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cakeandpie · Apr 14, 2005, 08:54 PM

I purchased my new powerbook from apple.com a little before Tiger was announced, and just out of curiosity I went to the Up-to-Date Program page on their site just a few minutes ago. I clicked on the link for online purchases and filled out the info of my purchase including my serial number (but adjusting my date a little bit) and I ended up with Tiger in my cart for 9.95. Just a few questions I had: would I still have to provide a dated sales receipt to them, or is that only for paper applications not online ones? Also, is this extremely morally wrong or not because it seems that at least my serial number is within the appropriate range? Anyway, the price difference is quite large to a college student like me, so I just wanted to get some people's opinions on this.

Luca Rescigno · Apr 14, 2005, 09:08 PM

We had this exact same discussion last year. Some people were saying that if you use the up-to-date program to get the cheap upgrade even though you bought your computer before the cutoff date, you were "morally wrong" and should not have done it. I took the position that if Apple's own website lets you do so, then it's up to them to restrict those who don't qualify. If they really have a problem with your order they will cancel it.

cakeandpie · Apr 14, 2005, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno

We had this exact same discussion last year. Some people were saying that if you use the up-to-date program to get the cheap upgrade even though you bought your computer before the cutoff date, you were "morally wrong" and should not have done it. I took the position that if Apple's own website lets you do so, then it's up to them to restrict those who don't qualify. If they really have a problem with your order they will cancel it.

so then really at this point it is strictly a moral based decision? there is no chance that if you order it they will make you submit paper verification?

OptimusG4 · Apr 14, 2005, 09:12 PM

Just rememeber that this is just the upgrade disc and not the full install disc, meaning if you want to do an erase and install in the future or install on a new hard drive, you will need to install Panther beforehand.

rcr · Apr 17, 2005, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by OptimusG4

Just rememeber that this is just the upgrade disc and not the full install disc, meaning if you want to do an erase and install in the future or install on a new hard drive, you will need to install Panther beforehand.

Do you know this for a fact, or is this an assumption based on former releases?

rcr

OptimusG4 · Apr 17, 2005, 08:34 AM

Well if you don't believe me, wait until you get the disc and see for yourself.

rcr · Apr 17, 2005, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by OptimusG4

Well if you don't believe me, wait until you get the disc and see for yourself.

I don't "believe" or "disbelieve" you. I was asking an honest question as to whether your statement was based on inside knowledge of this release, or experience with former releases.

I have an Up-to-Date order in place for a system that WAS purchased after 4/12, and I am curious about this because I would like to be able to do a Tiger Archive & Install, or a one step Format & Install with the Up-to-Date Tiger disk that Apple will ship.

rcr

siMac · Apr 17, 2005, 08:46 AM

Morally wrong! Evil customer, you think that just because you bought hardware worth $1500-$2700 that shipped with software that was rendered out of date within days of you opening the box you should be automatically entitled to scam an innocent computer manufacturer out of a $120 discount on a software DVD just because your serial number falls within their specified range? What is the world coming to? How can multinational companies be expected to survive this kind of persecution by unscrupulous, conniving consumers?

Ahem, that is to say: good for you - bleed 'em dry! If they're offering it you should take it, I don't think you need to lose any sleep over it.

OptimusG4 · Apr 17, 2005, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by rcr

I don't "believe" or "disbelieve" you. I was asking an honest question as to whether your statement was based on inside knowledge of this release, or experience with former releases.

I have an Up-to-Date order in place for a system that WAS purchased after 4/12, and I am curious about this because I would like to be able to do a Tiger Archive & Install, or a one step Format & Install with the Up-to-Date Tiger disk that Apple will ship.

rcr

Sorry about that. No, I was told by an Apple store rep that it was on the update CD as in previous OS releases.

Geobunny · Apr 17, 2005, 09:32 AM

I have to say I don't really see a problem with it whatsoever. If the serial number is in range, then all's well that ends well. Having said that, your conscience is obviously bugging you otherwise you wouldn't be here asking questions, would you?!

Apple's own website allows it. I really wouldn't be worrying if I were you.

Weyland-Yutani · Apr 17, 2005, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by siMac

Morally wrong! Evil customer, you think that just because you bought hardware worth $1500-$2700 that shipped with software that was rendered out of date within days of you opening the box you should be automatically entitled to scam an innocent computer manufacturer out of a $120 discount on a software DVD just because your serial number falls within their specified range? What is the world coming to? How can multinational companies be expected to survive this kind of persecution by unscrupulous, conniving consumers? .

Exactly!!

Goldfinger · Apr 17, 2005, 10:27 AM

I have no idea how you can ever feel wrong by using the up-to-date program

.

Marv · Apr 17, 2005, 12:21 PM

Hmm. Well some people see it this way:

Morality = Law

It may be legal to take aadvantage of someone's mistake. I just don't sign on to the idea that it is "right" to do something simply because there is no law against it. But that is just me.

Sounds like it is your decision so do what you believe rather than getting a group consensus.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 17, 2005, 12:53 PM

We all knew the new OS was coming "first half of 2005" so if you chose to purchase your hardware before they announced it, you should pay the upgrade.

Angus_D · Apr 17, 2005, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Marv

Hmm. Well some people see it this way:

Morality = Law

Those people are idiots.

Weyland-Yutani · Apr 17, 2005, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Marv

Hmm. Well some people see it this way:

Morality = Law

It may be legal to take aadvantage of someone's mistake. I just don't sign on to the idea that it is "right" to do something simply because there is no law against it. But that is just me.

Sounds like it is your decision so do what you believe rather than getting a group consensus.

Curous. AFAIK laws can easily be immoral. Do these people then implode in a surge of contradiction?

Anubis IV · Apr 17, 2005, 06:34 PM

In regards to the "implode in a contradiction" comment, no, since morals override laws in my book.

Anyway, just as I'd consider it immoral to purchase a single-user copy of Tiger and use it on multiple computers in a household (as opposed to purchasing the Family Pack and doing the same thing), I'd consider it to be morally wrong to use the up-to-date program in that way. There's nothing stopping you from doing either one of those, but that doesn't mean that you should do them. Frankly put, I'm ashamed of the fact that so many people are outright condoning the activity (though there's nothing wrong about you asking the questions you asked). I mean, it's one thing for people to say that "it's probably what I would've done", but it's another thing to say that it's Apple's mistake and offhandedly dismiss the moral argument. If you all are the likes of the people that I'm gonna end up working with in another one or two years when I graduate from this university, you can bet that you won't be getting my business for long. Haven't you ever even heard of ethics? Not everything that is lawful is right. Simple enough concept.

So if you want my opinion, sure, you can do it, but I would say it is wrong. All that said though, honestly, it's probably what I would've done, so I suppose the high ground I tried to stand on isn't really that high at all.

Geobunny · 07:13 PM

Anubis, I hear what you're saying about ethics, but turn the tables here for a second and look at it from the perspective of what Apple did: they said that the software would be available from the first half of 2005; 10.4 went GM a good 2 or 3 weeks ago; Apple waited those 2 or 3 weeks, knowing damn fine that those people who didn't follow Apple rumours and fan websites would get shafted when they finally decided to announce a release date.

Put simply, they screwed some people out of some hard earned cash in those 2-3 weeks by being cunning, if some of those people manage to out-cunn (is that even a verb?!) them and screw them back, then I'd be inclined to say that it's "fair play".

My advice: if it feels ok to you, stick with the order. If not, cancel it and pay full whack. As has been said before, don't get a group consensus, just make up your own mind.

ghporter · Apr 17, 2005, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Marv

Hmm. Well some people see it this way:

Morality = Law

It may be legal to take aadvantage of someone's mistake. I just don't sign on to the idea that it is "right" to do something simply because there is no law against it. But that is just me.

Sounds like it is your decision so do what you believe rather than getting a group consensus.

Your equation is flawed. Moral = Ethical, whether your ethics are part of a religious structure you have adopted or had imposed on you by your family and culture, or they came from your own personal choices, a moral sense is identical with an ethical sense in almost every way. Further, moral controlls are those we impose on ourselves and enforce on ourselves. Legal controlls are those imposed by society and enforced by society. There are things that are perfectly legal to do that are still despicable from a moral standpoint.

Please note that the OP actually mentioned fudging the date of his purchase. That becomes a different issue entirely; it's not at all the same as letting the system ok a purchase that you know it's not supposed to, it is actually lying to the mechanism Apple uses to manage upgrades. Not only is that ethically wrong, it is legally wrong too.

hldan · 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by cakeandpie

I purchased my new powerbook from apple.com a little before Tiger was announced, and just out of curiosity I went to the Up-to-Date Program page on their site just a few minutes ago. I clicked on the link for online purchases and filled out the info of my purchase including my serial number (but adjusting my date a little bit) and I ended up with Tiger in my cart for 9.95. Just a few questions I had: would I still have to provide a dated sales receipt to them, or is that only for paper applications not online ones? Also, is this extremely morally wrong or not because it seems that at least my serial number is within the appropriate range? Anyway, the price difference is quite large to a college student like me, so I just wanted to get some people's opinions on this.

Apple has been doing the up-to-date program for a while now and they know what their websight can do and what it cannot do. They know that the student and up-to-date discount offers on their websight don't require proof. It's basically an honor system. If people find holes in the system then that's Apple's problem. The up-to-date CD's can be used for erase and install once Panther is upgraded to Tiger.

Now as for cakeandpie, I have question for you. You mentioned that you are a college student so why didn't you order Tiger with the student discount? It's still far cheaper than the consumer price at $129.99. If you just bought a new Powerbook the $69.99 student price ain't gonna break you.
I am mentioning this because this "college student" thing is quite irritating when people bring it up as if being a college student you deserved to have it far cheaper than the rest of us as if college students have no money. I have long since graduated and have a decent job but Tiger's retail price of $129.99 is tough for me to pay as I paid for Panther as well.
Don't come here and ask about morals if you still have an option as a college student to get it cheaper than others but still want to play a game to get it rock bottom.

Geobunny · Apr 18, 2005, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Please note that the OP actually mentioned fudging the date of his purchase. That becomes a different issue entirely; it's not at all the same as letting the system ok a purchase that you know it's not supposed to, it is actually lying to the mechanism Apple uses to manage upgrades. Not only is that ethically wrong, it is legally wrong too.

Oh, that is true. I'd missed the part where he said he'd doctored the date. I wouldn't do that myself, but I still stand by my word that it's entirely up to the individual involved.

businezguy · Apr 27, 2005, 07:13 PM

Is anybody having trouble getting this to work? When I try to enter it, it flags my serial number as a problem. I called up Apple and they said I'd need to fax the info in, and I HATE gathering info and faxing it. Is there something I'm doing wrong, and is anybody else having this problem?

wunderkind · Apr 28, 2005, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by businezguy

Is anybody having trouble getting this to work? When I try to enter it, it flags my serial number as a problem. I called up Apple and they said I'd need to fax the info in, and I HATE gathering info and faxing it. Is there something I'm doing wrong, and is anybody else having this problem?

I had the same problem - the online form says "Serial number not found". I filled out the Up-To-Date pdf form, attached invoice from Apple for the new PB and faxed both. Everything was sorted out in two days.

all2ofme · Apr 29, 2005, 05:53 PM

I had hte same problem with my serial not being recognised. Everyone I spoke to at Apple said that I needed to send my receipt in with the cash and wait for the disc to come in the post.

Bugger that - I took the computer back to the shop and got a replacement machine with the up-to-date disc inside.