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ero2 · May 5, 2005, 03:47 PM

Since CCC is broken in Tiger I have a backing up question. Can I open disk utility and restore my PB drive onto my external FW HD? Does this do the same thing as backing it up, creating a bootable backup?

pendragon · May 6, 2005, 07:35 AM

I find your question quite interesting, but alas, I know not the answer and a guessing is probably not a good idea. No doubt some clever chap or chapette will soon stop by and post the definitive answer.

OreoCookie · May 6, 2005, 07:57 AM

Yes, it will, but it will copy the contents of your drive 1-to-1. You can also use Disk Utility to restore your system.

And yes, it is a backup, although not a very space-conserving one.

SimeyTheLimey · May 6, 2005, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Yes, it will, but it will copy the contents of your drive 1-to-1. You can also use Disk Utility to restore your system.

And yes, it is a backup, although not a very space-conserving one.

Yes, but how exactly? The disk utility is not exactly the most user-friendly piece of software that Apple makes. All the controls use jargon that isn't really explained. I have searched help for things like "backup" "clone" "bootable copy" and all the variations I can think of, but all the help files point me to not-very-helpful subjects like "using images" without ****ing explaining what an "image" is. I have read the documents, they do not help. And I am tired of Apple constantly suggesting backing up to .Mac when I have a second drive.

Sometimes engineers really piss me off. They don't always remember that what is simple to them is not intuitive to others without the same background. Could someone please explain to a layman how to do exactly what I used to be able to do easily using CCC before Bombich dropped the ball?

OreoCookie · May 6, 2005, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Yes, but how exactly? The disk utility is not exactly the most user-friendly piece of software that Apple makes. All the controls use jargon that isn't really explained. I have searched help for things like "backup" "clone" "bootable copy" and all the variations I can think of, but all the help files point me to not-very-helpful subjects like "using images" without ****ing explaining what an "image" is. I have read the documents, they do not help. And I am tired of Apple constantly suggesting backing up to .Mac when I have a second drive.

Sometimes engineers really piss me off. They don't always remember that what is simple to them is not intuitive to others without the same background. Could someone please explain to a layman how to do exactly what I used to be able to do easily using CCC before Bombich dropped the ball?

If you want to make an image from a volume, and I assume you use Tiger, select the volume you want to backup and click in File > Image > Image from [name of disk]. If you use Panther, you'll find the options in the Image menu.

By the same method, you can backup directories as well or encrypt your data. (Select the appropriate option Image > Image from directory and choose the directory you want to backup.) If you create an image from a bootable DVD or CD and burn it, it will be bootable (never had any problems).

SimeyTheLimey · May 6, 2005, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

If you want to make an image from a volume, and I assume you use Tiger, select the volume you want to backup and click in File > Image > Image from [name of disk]. If you use Panther, you'll find the options in the Image menu.

By the same method, you can backup directories as well or encrypt your data. (Select the appropriate option Image > Image from directory and choose the directory you want to backup.) If you create an image from a bootable DVD or CD and burn it, it will be bootable (never had any problems).

Oreo, thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to try to help. Unfortunately, that doesn't get me any closer to my question because I really have no idea what an "image" is and even less of an idea whether or not I want to "make an image from a volume." What I want to do is what CCC calls cloning, as in the whole damn drive so that I have a completely identical backup that I can just boot from. But I don't really know how that is achieved "under the hood" so to speak. Remember, I bought a mac because "it just works." Not because I have any interest in Unix. But I still appreciate you taking the time to help.

I'm trying out Synk right now. Maybe that will do what I want.

ghporter · May 6, 2005, 10:24 AM

Simey, an "image" in this case is a binary copy of a disk or partition. A partition is a logical portion of a drive that can hold various kinds of volumes. A "volume" is also a logical portion of a disk that is associated with a particular mountable filesystem (effectively any logical drive that Mac OS can see)-in Windows a volume would be associated with a drive letter.

The thing with the Disk Utility is that while it "just works," it does stuff that non-geeks don't (or at least didn't until recently) need or want to do, so it's not aimed at less "enthusiastic" users.

OreoCookie · May 6, 2005, 10:29 AM

This is not Unix technology here, images were already part of MacOS 8 and 9 (at least 9). Nobody knew about it back then, either.

An image is a file which behaves like a volume. Think of it as a .zip archive of some sort, but it is more than that. It puts a regular HFS filesystem (or any other supported by MacOS) on the archive which means it is treated like a firewire disk or any other mounted volume. The advantages are clear: it can be treated like a file, an image can be copied, moved, deleted, so you don't have to repartition your harddrive or whatever. Also, you can copy an image onto a windows computer and be sure nothing (!) is lost. The image file is just a simple file without any metadata (resource fork). You can even chop it into pieces you can burn on DVDs or CDs, put them back together and then open it.

Long story short: an image is a file that can be treated like a regular volume. If a tool creates an image from a volume, it reads out the volume and clones it onto the image.

Is that explanation better?

SimeyTheLimey · May 6, 2005, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

The thing with the Disk Utility is that while it "just works," it does stuff that non-geeks don't (or at least didn't until recently) need or want to do, so it's not aimed at less "enthusiastic" users.

Of course I understand that, which is what I find so annoying about it. Apple seems to have made a decision that backing up by ordinary folks should be done one way -- through .mac. Their help files for all the other ways are extremely confusing. They are written for geeks, which is incompatible with the "it just works" philosophy that attracted me to Apple in the first place.

Then to top it off I get really pissed off when the easily accessible program that did work in an intuitive way goes down for no good reason. Bombich is an Apple employee. This problem should not have happened. And then to get me even more pissed off, Bombich says he is working on a fix (delivery unknown) but in the mean time he says we can always do the same thing in Disc Utility and then he doesn't explain how you do that. See the frustration? Just tell us which bleeding buttons to press!

With any luck Synk will do what I want, which is no more than what CCC did until Tiger. I just want a copy made of my hard drive automatically on a weekly schedule. That's not rocket science, and if it does that I'll gladly pay the student who designed it. Too bad Apple can't seem to make a similar program.

romeosc · May 6, 2005, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Of course I understand that, which is what I find so annoying about it. Apple seems to have made a decision that backing up by ordinary folks should be done one way -- through .mac. Their help files for all the other ways are extremely confusing. They are written for geeks, which is incompatible with the "it just works" philosophy that attracted me to Apple in the first place.

Then to top it off I get really pissed off when the easily accessible program that did work in an intuitive way goes down for no good reason. Bombich is an Apple employee. This problem should not have happened. And then to get me even more pissed off, Bombich says he is working on a fix (delivery unknown) but in the mean time he says we can always do the same thing in Disc Utility and then he doesn't explain how you do that. See the frustration? Just tell us which bleeding buttons to press!

With any luck Synk will do what I want, which is no more than what CCC did until Tiger. I just want a copy made of my hard drive automatically on a weekly schedule. That's not rocket science, and if it does that I'll gladly pay the student who designed it. Too bad Apple can't seem to make a similar program.

I think the problem is too few people want to "pony up" for a .mac account. Apple tries to force us to "Think Different (NOT)". You Must do it their way! If it was as easy as Carbon Clone made it, one more reason not buy .Mac. I like keeping my cloned drive on a external firewire drive, you can carry in your pocket. Hook up a firewire cable to a friends Mac and presto you have your computer back. You could even go to Kinkos and work like you are at home.

Art Vandelay · May 6, 2005, 03:03 PM

To clone a disk to another disk this is how you do it...

Straight from the Help menu in Disk Utility.

In Disk Utility, click Restore.
Drag the disk from the list to the Source field.
Drag the disk where you want to backup to the Destination field.
Select the checkbox if you want to erase the destination disk or skip the checksum.
When you're ready, click Restore.

SimeyTheLimey · May 6, 2005, 04:58 PM

Thank you! Finally, a simple answer to a simple question.

In any case, in the mean time I tried out Synk, it crashed. Twice. It even crashed on the "send a bug report" pane, again, twice. It's now going to the trash bin.

I went ahead and cloned my system using the log-in-as-root-and-then-use-CCC method which Bombich's site recommended. That worked, but it obviously is pretty unsatisfactory. At least it also let me delete the schedule, so things won't be disturbed for now. I may try disc utility next time, but at least I have things backed up for now so I am happier.

What a pain.

P.S. it is interesting that Apple hides this under the label "restore." That is not an intuitive name. Restore sounds like what you do after your system crashes. What I want to do is back up so that I can restore if my system crashes.

Appleman · May 6, 2005, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

P.S. it is interesting that Apple hides this under the label "restore." That is not an intuitive name. Restore sounds like what you do after your system crashes. What I want to do is back up so that I can restore if my system crashes.

True

romeosc · May 6, 2005, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Appleman

True

I tried restore, but PB wouldn't boot from copy!

I used Psuedo method and it worked!

OreoCookie · May 7, 2005, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by romeosc

I tried restore, but PB wouldn't boot from copy!

I used Psuedo method and it worked!

Have you tried the method I described?

romeosc · May 7, 2005, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Have you tried the method I described?

Yes,

It created the OS, but upon seleecting external drive and restarting, It hunk with spinning widget.

Tried repairing permissions, etc. No help.

Using Carbon Copy Cloner worked fine (using Psuedo)

OreoCookie · May 7, 2005, 08:17 AM

Either you didn't follow my instructions (don't do it via Restore!) and/or you misunderstand what happens. The image you created is not bootable by itself, because it is not a harddrive. You can restore that image onto a real harddrive, however, and then it should work.

This method always worked with bootable dvds and cds for me.