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TheZee · 06:33 AM

Scenario: I run OSX.2.8 using my Ivory Dual USB G3 iBook. I have offered to upgrade my neighbors older bronze keypad G3 powerbook running OS9 256RAM & 4GB HD to OSX using my system discs.
Questions: Do I simply perform an erase and install on her powerbook?
I assume that all of her programs which are OS9 versions will be lost, right?
Will this give her the dual OS9/OSX System like I have?
Is this a wise decision given the minimal memory she currently has? In other words
will this process do more damage than good for her?
She wants to do it. I want to make sure that I have all the information, pro and con, concerning this procedure before I do it.

Peace out . . .

- - e r i k - - · May 29, 2005, 07:08 AM

With a G3 and that amount of RAM I'd advise against it. I believe it's time for her to upgrade to an iBook, not try to yank in an older version of OS X onto a computer that can't handle it.

Big Mac · May 29, 2005, 07:30 AM

The hard drive, in particular, is far too small for OS X, Classic and your friend's data.

msuper69 · May 29, 2005, 08:07 AM

Ditto on the hard drive smallness. Also, she needs her own copy of OS X in case she needs it to repair something (besides the fact that you're promoting piracy on these boards which is a no-no).

TheZee · 09:51 AM

Promoting piracy??? Way too much of an exageration dude. Helping a friend out by sharing what I own is a far cry from selling or trafficking the product. Just like coping a music CD that one owns then letting a friend have a copy. Everybody and their grandmother does that. Copyright infringement, yes. Piracy??? Come on.
Anyway, from what you all have shared here it looks like upgrading her to OSX is not a very good idea. Is the low HD memory the major issue??? How much HD space should there be in order for OSX to run properly??? Curious.
Peace out . . .

wadesworld · May 29, 2005, 10:08 AM

Promoting piracy??? Way too much of an exageration dude. Helping a friend out by sharing what I own is a far cry from selling or trafficking the product.

It's called stealing. Your friend did not pay for it and has no right to use it. You wanting to help your friend does not justify giving someone else's work away.

Just like coping a music CD that one owns then letting a friend have a copy. Everybody and their grandmother does that. Copyright infringement, yes. Piracy??? Come on.

Um, that's wrong too. Everybody and their grandmother may do it, but it does not make it right.

There's a concept many people don't get in this world:

If you want it, but can't or don't want to pay for it, then you shouldn't have it.

Sigh.....I don't know why people think they're entitled to take anything they want just because they want it.

Wade

Gankdawg · May 29, 2005, 10:52 AM

And read the sig guidelines too.

TheZee · May 29, 2005, 06:36 PM

You really gotta chill my brother. I understand and agree with your position. However, I do feel that once I have paid for a product, I own it and should be able to do whatever I choose with it. Like I said before, I am not talking about making numerous copies and traficking them to whomever. I am talking about sharing the product that I own with one other person. You can't really tell me that you have never copied a music CD for a friend or downloaded a favorite DVD into your computer so you can watch it while traveling. Technically, that is copyright infringement but realistically it's an individual sharing a CD or DVD that they own with one or two of their friends. And that speech about "if you can't pay for it then you can't have it." Rather harsh and in direct contradiction to this forum, in my opinion. I have come to cherish the fact that the Mac community shares all sorts of things. Ideas, a ShapeShifter theme, images, applications. Are we all pirates and swindlers??? Yes, purchasing an app, game, whatever is first and formost but I beleive that after that, if you own it then do with it what you will. Within reason. Sharing with one or two friends in need is within reason to me.
Peace out

msuper69 · May 29, 2005, 06:47 PM

Lockination: Coming soon to a post near you!

CharlesS · May 29, 2005, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by TheZee

You really gotta chill my brother. I understand and agree with your position. However, I do feel that once I have paid for a product, I own it and should be able to do whatever I choose with it. Like I said before, I am not talking about making numerous copies and traficking them to whomever. I am talking about sharing the product that I own with one other person. You can't really tell me that you have never copied a music CD for a friend or downloaded a favorite DVD into your computer so you can watch it while traveling. Technically, that is copyright infringement but realistically it's an individual sharing a CD or DVD that they own with one or two of their friends. And that speech about "if you can't pay for it then you can't have it." Rather harsh and in direct contradiction to this forum, in my opinion. I have come to cherish the fact that the Mac community shares all sorts of things. Ideas, a ShapeShifter theme, images, applications. Are we all pirates and swindlers??? Yes, purchasing an app, game, whatever is first and formost but I beleive that after that, if you own it then do with it what you will. Within reason. Sharing with one or two friends in need is within reason to me.
Peace out

1. When you buy a piece of software, you own a license to the software, not the software itself. Since you only own one license, you don't have the legal right to install that software on your friend's machine.

2. The others are right - 4 GB is way too small for OS X anyway, 256 MB is non-ideal for RAM, and the G3 definitely is not the best processor. Your friend is better off getting a new iBook which will, incidentally ship with a valid license to OS X.

TheZee · May 30, 2005, 02:19 AM

I get the license aspect of software. I agree that piracy of software is way wrong and illegal. In my opinion, however, I do not equate sharing a software with one or two people as piracy. Is it technically copyright infringement? Yes. Is it so small a thing that the practice is commonplace among practically everyone on the planet? Yes. Making a copy of a music CD for a friend; technically copyright infringement? Yes. That big a deal? No. Again, I am not talking about making copies for a whole bunch of people. I am talking about one copy to help a person out. Does something so small as that make a big deal? In my opinion, no.
Does anyone know what the minimum HD size & RAM need to be to run OSX?
It's looking like it's not worth the hassle but I would like to explain to this person why it wouldn't be a good idea to install it. Peace out . . .

- - e r i k - - · May 30, 2005, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by TheZee

It's looking like it's not worth the hassle but I would like to explain to this person why it wouldn't be a good idea to install it. Peace out . . .

Here's your reasons for her:
- Your computer is too slow
- Your RAM is too low
- Your HD is too small
- I'm technically not allowed to share it with you

All reasons outlined in this thread, a long with the advice to upgrade to a better computer with a valid license.

Big Mac · May 30, 2005, 02:37 AM

OS X takes up over 1GB of hard drive space, and OS 9 (for Classic support) brings that figure to around 1250MBs. Base applications and utilities take up roughly 400MBs more. Then you have to factor in the virtual memory requirement, which can easily take up a few GBs with only a small number of applications open. 4GBs is simply too small. 256MBs is squeezed but adequate for modest needs, but the drive is too small.

CharlesS · May 30, 2005, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

OS X takes up over 1GB of hard drive space, and OS 9 (for Classic support) brings that figure to around 1250MBs. Base applications and utilities take up roughly 400MBs more. Then you have to factor in the virtual memory requirement, which can easily take up a few GBs with only a small number of applications open. 4GBs is simply too small. 256MBs is squeezed but adequate for modest needs, but the drive is too small.

Don't forget the Spotlight index. Mine is almost 400 MB.

Heh, 4 GB could work as long as you... uh... never launch any apps, and... er... never save any files, and, um... never turn it on...

Toyin · May 30, 2005, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by TheZee

I get the license aspect of software. I agree that piracy of software is way wrong and illegal. In my opinion, however, I do not equate sharing a software with one or two people as piracy. Is it technically copyright infringement? Yes. Is it so small a thing that the practice is commonplace among practically everyone on the planet? Yes. Making a copy of a music CD for a friend; technically copyright infringement? Yes. That big a deal? No. Again, I am not talking about making copies for a whole bunch of people. I am talking about one copy to help a person out. Does something so small as that make a big deal? In my opinion, no.
Does anyone know what the minimum HD size & RAM need to be to run OSX?
It's looking like it's not worth the hassle but I would like to explain to this person why it wouldn't be a good idea to install it. Peace out . . .

I'm not one to jump on the moral bandwagon, but personally if 1 out of 3 of my clients paid for my services I wouldn't be too happy about it, and neither would you.

As everyone else said, 4gb is not even close enough to use OSX effectively. After installation and adding a few MP3s she'd be getting the 'running low on disk space' warning. To be safe give OSX at least 1-2gb of free space to do it's swap thing.

Randman · May 30, 2005, 07:45 AM

Sig is way too long. 5 lines of text.

Sharing is piracy no matter how you try to justify it.

Her system is pretty damn old. An OS upgrade with that little memory isn't going to do any good.

angelmb · May 30, 2005, 09:33 AM

I would not install Mac OS X under a G3 with a 66 MHz system bus with that little hard disk and RAM, I have tried Tiger with only 256 MB RAM under a 1 GHz 17" PowerBook and it was a pain, plus that she is not going to be able to upgrade to Tiger since that PowerBook (Lombard I guess) is not FireWire ready.

Anyway if she can backup all her valuable data, just try it, you can always delete it and come back to Mac OS 9, huh :?

CharlesS · May 30, 2005, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by angelmb

Anyway if she can backup all her valuable data, just try it, you can always delete it and come back to Mac OS 9, huh :?

If she can back up your valuable data, and install OS X on the disc, her valuable data is going to have to stay on the backup, because it's not gonna fit back on the hard drive...

TheZee · May 31, 2005, 04:09 AM

Ok,
Here's to all those over the top posters that are adament that me sharing my owned copy of OSX with one other person is piracy.

Check the law my brothers:
"Original software licenses often say that the buyer does not buy the software but instead pays for the right to use the software. In the US, the first-sale doctrine, Softman v. Adobe ruled that software sales are purchases, not licenses, and resale or copying, including unbundling, is lawful regardless of a contractual prohibition. The reasoning in Softman v. Adobe suggests that prohibiting resale or copying of student licensed versions, provided they are accurately described as such, is also not infringing."
Y'all can boo hoo about it but to me, if I bought it, I own it and therefore am free to do with it what I choose, within reason of course. Sharing with one person is within reason in my opinion and in the courts opinion. Yes, all you developers out there, in a perfect world you would reap every dollar out of your product. But come one now, that's purely absurd to think that if you make an awesome product which costs, let's say, $700-900 bones, no one is gonna share it with his/her friend who might not have the resources to purchase it themselves? Illistrator, Photoshop and others which, in my opinion, are outrageously over priced hurt their own business by shutting out the struggling student or the beginning designer with limited cash flow. I bet you that if you talk to those in the field of design, probably 90% of them were fortunate to be the benefactors of a shared copy of software which they couldn't afford but had to have for their career. Now here's what happens: after using that software they become avid addicts of it and then go on to purchase every upgrade, plugin, whatever that the company releases. Thus becoming loyal clients. Lower the intial price and get more clients who keep coming back for more. It's really all a factor of economics.
I hope that puts the rather harsh "piracy" yodelers to rest. If it doesn't, oh well. The courts say different. I'd advise a little restraint before throwing around the piracy label though. Peace out . . .

Randman · May 31, 2005, 04:21 AM

1) your sig is way too long still.

2) no matter what arcane suits you drudge up to support your silly claim, it is still piracy.

TheZee · 04:33 AM

Arcane suits??? Check the law bud !!! What do you have besides a position that is purely feuled by your emotions and not the facts. Preach until you're blue in the face but in the end I've got case law behind me and you got nothing. And what's your trip with my sig??? Get a life !!! You don't like my sig, don't read it. Peace out . . .

Big Mac · May 31, 2005, 05:55 AM

You don't have to continuously defend yourself on this point, TheZee. People told you that you were violating the terms of Apple's EULA, and you found it necessary to have a long, drawn out, inconsequential exchange with them. I know no one likes being attacked, and one's natural reaction is to attempt to mount a defense. If you're wrong, however, it's silly trying to fight back. Btw, I found your citation of Softman v. Adobe interesting, so I reviewed it; you should know your reading of that opinion is defective.

Softman v. Adobe applies to the separate resale of bundled software, and in that opinion the federal court found that the first-sale doctrine, not Adobe's EULA, was in force because Softman did not itself install the software before reselling it. Thus, Softman was not violating any law or legal contract when it resold bundled software. This decision did not weaken potential enforcement of software copyrights or EULAs. In contrast, when you install on someone else's computer software you have already paid for and used, and you're doing so in order to give them unlicensed use, you are indeed violating the EULA to which you are bound. Randman was wrong to claim that this case is arcane. But more importantly, you were wrong to cite a case without any comprehension of its meaning.

Toyin · May 31, 2005, 06:27 AM

TheZee.....

theolein · May 31, 2005, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by TheZee

Scenario: I run OSX.2.8 using my Ivory Dual USB G3 iBook. I have offered to upgrade my neighbors older bronze keypad G3 powerbook running OS9 256RAM & 4GB HD to OSX using my system discs.
Questions: Do I simply perform an erase and install on her powerbook?
I assume that all of her programs which are OS9 versions will be lost, right?
Will this give her the dual OS9/OSX System like I have?
Is this a wise decision given the minimal memory she currently has? In other words
will this process do more damage than good for her?
She wants to do it. I want to make sure that I have all the information, pro and con, concerning this procedure before I do it.

Peace out . . .

I have OSX 10.3 installed on my old G3 Lombard Bronze Keyboard (333MHz) Powerbook with a 6GB HD and 192 MB RAM. I use that machine as a backup in emergencies. It's actually quite usable for things like web surfing and reading mail. Of course, with so little RAM, I can't really productively run more than one or two programmes at once, and things like Photoshop etc are out of the question, since the monitor only allows thousands of colours due to the small 4MB vram.

I actually ran all OSX versions on that machine from the Public Beta to OSX 10.2, and did a fair amount of productive web development on it. For all graphics work, I rebooted into OS9 as classic was just too slow.

However, compared to OS9, it is very slow, that much is true. As for the whole piracy thing, I have an extra Panther boxed version here at home that I don't use anymore and which I would gladly send to you if I had the extra cash floating around to pay for the postage. (I am extremely broke, sadly)

Perhaps we can just consider it "yours" for the time being to avoid this tedious discussion on piracy.

wadesworld · May 31, 2005, 08:15 AM

Preach until you're blue in the face but in the end I've got case law behind me and you got nothing.

You should try understanding the law before quoting it. Otherwise, you just look silly - like you did.

The key point you're missing is that whether you think it's OK to share or not does not make it so.

Illistrator, Photoshop and others which, in my opinion, are outrageously over priced hurt their own business by shutting out the struggling student or the beginning designer with limited cash flow. I bet you that if you talk to those in the field of design, probably 90% of them were fortunate to be the benefactors of a shared copy of software which they couldn't afford but had to have for their career. Now here's what happens: after using that software they become avid addicts of it and then go on to purchase every upgrade, plugin, whatever that the company releases. Thus becoming loyal clients. Lower the intial price and get more clients who keep coming back for more. It's really all a factor of economics.

Ah, the old, "it's OK that I'm stealing your software because I can't afford it but I'll buy LOTS of copies later" argument.

Two problems with that:
a) If you can't afford the software, it's not OK to take it because you want it
b) Why on Earth would you buy the software later in your career? You've already stolen it and nothing bad happened. Why would you spend your company's money on software from "greedy companies that overprice their software?" You wouldn't. You'd steal it again and find all sorts of ways to justify it. If later in your career you work for a company that legally purchases software, it will be because someone else in the company had ethics.

Wade

nuggetman · May 31, 2005, 08:35 AM

edit: meh... nevermind...

Detrius · May 31, 2005, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by TheZee

Arcane suits??? Check the law bud !!! What do you have besides a position that is purely feuled by your emotions and not the facts. Preach until you're blue in the face but in the end I've got case law behind me and you got nothing. And what's your trip with my sig??? Get a life !!! You don't like my sig, don't read it. Peace out . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softman_v._Adobe

As stated by Big Mac, we did check the law... You really should learn how to comprehend what you read. You are breaking copyright law by giving an extra copy of something you are using to your neighbor. Another word for breaking copyright law is piracy.

and your signature IS outside of the MacNN guidelines.

For reference, here they are again:

1) an image (200x50px max, no bigger than 10KB file size, non-animated) and up to one line of text, OR
2) four lines of text

In all cases, blank lines do count, and the lines must be of reasonable length, so they don't wrap on a reasonable-size window. (In other words, no whole paragraphs that just happen to have no line breaks in them.)