[doublep]

I was in the Apple Store in Ginza this morning. At the Genius Bar, the Geniuses troubleshoot customers' machines using small firewire drives on which Tiger is installed.

Interestingly, I noticed that they were using 10.4.2 Build 8C21.

Has this been seeded to developers?

[Krusty]

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0505macosx1042.html

[mAxximo]

Why do those fixes never seem to coincide with what I think should be fixed. No mention to the Find function not working in not-indexed drives, for example, or the Finder duplicating files when dragging them plus pressing Command (should snap to grid instead), or the already discussed iTunes stopping playback when switching users, etc.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Why do those fixes never seem to coincide with what I think should be fixed.

Because what you think what should be fixed actually shouldn't. It works correctly.

Originally Posted by mAxximo

No mention to the Find function not working in not-indexed drives, for example.

If you exclude drives from the search results they are not searched. It works as intended.

Originally Posted by mAxximo

or the already discussed iTunes stopping playback when switching users, etc.

If you switch out a user the user is switched out. That includes video as well as audio. It works as intended.
If you like to play music of a switched out user turn of music sharing in iTunes.

[mAxximo]

I'll save these clueless apologies you just wrote for when Apple actually fixes all those issues. I'll love to see what you'll say then.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Why do those fixes never seem to coincide with what I think should be fixed.

Because most of your "issues" come from ignorance about security, the ways computers work, or Apple's own processes, and not actual bugs.

[mAxximo]

Because most of your "issues" come from ignorance about security, the ways computers work, or Apple's own processes, and not actual bugs.

Let me fix that for you:
All my issues come from knowing a lot about usability in a professional environment, the way a so-called Mac should work and a profound dislike for NeXT's own processes. Yes, they are bugs as well as usability flaws and stupid design decisions.

You don't seeing them comes from ignorance about, well, all those items.

[Grrr]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Let me fix that for you:
All my issues come from knowing a lot about usability in a professional environment, the way a so-called Mac should work and a profound dislike for NeXT's own processes. Yes, they are bugs as well as usability flaws and stupid design decisions.

You don't seeing them comes from ignorance about, well, all those items.

You are not taking the hint are you..

[discotronic]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Why do those fixes never seem to coincide with what I think should be fixed.

Because Apple, just like the members of MacNN, don't really care what you think anymore. All you do is bitch.

[Detrius]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Why do those fixes never seem to coincide with what I think should be fixed...

They never coincide with what I think should be fixed either. The bottom line is that the world doesn't revolve around you--or me. They fix bugs in the order in which they get fixed. It doesn't always happen in the order of priority. If they are looking through the code, trying to figure out why something doesn't work, but they stumble across something else, they aren't just going to leave the bug in there--they are going to fix it. Thus, the bug that you think is irrelevant gets fixed. Also, it isn't done yet.

Anyway, there is one big bug that has been a serious pain-in-my-ass since 10.4 server came out (I doubt you have stumbled across it): I have user home directories on their own volume for safety reasons. When open directory users sit down at the server and log in, the act of logging out forcibly unmounts the user volume, wreaking havoc on the whole system, as the original volume is now unmounted. Any users logged in (locally or over the network) lose access to their home directories. In smaller environments where the server is a computer that gets used, this is devastating. Compared to a debatable opinion on iTunes and FUS, this is a big deal, while yours is not. But then, that's my opinion. Apple may not care about either of these issues.

Lastly, some bug fixes don't get announced... as logical errors may have been found in the code to fix one issue, but several other issues were fixed at the same time, and they didn't even realize it.

[Detrius]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

...the way a so-called Mac should work and a profound dislike for NeXT's own processes. ...

The problem I have with this statement is that the Mac is NeXT now. The Mac of OS 9 and before is dead. We have a new system. It is based on NeXT. Some of the new UI designs may conflict with the ideas of OS 9--but this isn't OS 9 any more. This isn't the same Macintosh any more. The more you accept that the Mac isn't designed for you, the happier you will be. Seriously. The Mac is not designed for any one person. It really doesn't matter whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. We are just individuals. In fact, as long as Apple thinks they can justify their choice, it doesn't matter how many people complain. It's going to be done that way. Our lives are easier if we fight battles that can be won. You fight battles that you can't win. Technically, you could win the iTunes/FUS battle, but you would have to take it up with Apple... how much time and effort would you have to expend to do that? Is it really worth it? It's one thing to debate a point in one thread, but you carry such bitter resentment for these issues across multiple threads. How can you possibly be happy with your Mac, considering how much you seem to hate it?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Detrius

The more you accept that the Mac isn't designed for you, the happier you will be.

It's not that the Mac isn't designed for him; he gets that. What he doesn't get is that the Mac never was designed for him in the first place. He is the very geek-aristocracy he opposes, by insisting that the Mac work his way and only his way, and he doesn't even understand this.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Let me fix that for you:
All my issues come from knowing a lot about usability in a professional environment...

How? Where have you studies? Where is your data? Your precious 1984 AHIG's?

...the way a so-called Mac should work...

What gives you the authority to decide how the Mac should work? For that matter, what gives you the authority to decide what the Mac is? You're passing off your own petty, uninformed opinions as facts, and it's really starting to get on my nerves.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's not that the Mac isn't designed for him; he gets that. What he doesn't get is that the Mac never was designed for him in the first place. He is the very geek-aristocracy he opposes, by insisting that the Mac work his way and only his way, and he doesn't even understand this.

that's it, in a nutshell.

[TheSpaz]

"When open directory users sit down at the server and log in, the act of logging out forcibly unmounts the user volume, wreaking havoc on the whole system, as the original volume is now unmounted."

Detrius. I don't know if this helps... but, I believe in the App "Cocktail"... Choose the setting for "Disks" and then choose the tab "Misc". There is a check box in there that says "Mount Disks Without User Login" and it's un-checked by default.

I don't know if it works, but it's worth a shot. Unless it does something totally different.

[jamil5454]

mAxximo, have you tried Linux? It's getting pretty mature nowadays.

http://www.ubuntulinux.org

^Easily becoming one of the most popular distros. They'll even ship you CDs totally FREE. I know cause I ordered 48 (40 x86, 4 x86-64, 4 PPC).
You can customize it all you want if you've got patience and an understanding of C.


Also, what would be the point of iTunes playing through FUS? When you activate FUS, Apple assumes that a completely different person sits down to use the computer. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty picky about my music and wouldn't want someone else's crap playing when I want to listen to my stuff. I could maybe understand if it was an option that you could check on and off. But even then, it still causes more annoyances than it helps. It's kind of a random feature that very few people will appreciate, if you could call it a feature. It would be like arguing that you should be able to switch the order of the maximize, minimize, and close buttons at the top of each window. Pointless "who cares?" stuff.

It's Fast User Switching. Emphasis on switching users.

[mdc]

i agree with jamil5454, i don't see the itunes fus thing as a feature, and i think in 10.4 it is how it should be. i am the main user of my macs, but sometimes people come round and i let them use a different account on it. fast user switching is a perfect way, since i am always doing work on my mac and i don't want someone to come sit down at my mac which has about 9 documents open and mess something up.

i am often listening to music too. why should they have to listen to what i was listening to? they are a new user, they get their own desktop, their own everything.

i think itunes is correct now. when i switch out, pause itunes, when i come back, unpause itunes.

just my 2c

[tuqqer]

Man, some of you could benefit from taking a communications class.

"I can't figure out why people get upset at my responses!"

[chris v]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

Also, what would be the point of iTunes playing through FUS? When you activate FUS, Apple assumes that a completely different person sits down to use the computer. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty picky about my music and wouldn't want someone else's crap playing when I want to listen to my stuff. I could maybe understand if it was an option that you could check on and off. But even then, it still causes more annoyances than it helps. It's kind of a random feature that very few people will appreciate, if you could call it a feature. It would be like arguing that you should be able to switch the order of the maximize, minimize, and close buttons at the top of each window. Pointless "who cares?" stuff.

It's Fast User Switching. Emphasis on switching users.

We already had a 3 page thread, where this was explained to him over and over again. for some reason, he wants it to behave differently than it does, therefore the current behavior is a "bug."

[echosphere]

An informative-thread-turned-rant that I acutally enjoy. Nice to see the moderators jumping in and giving views.

Was just curious, is there a definition of a Bug?

For example:
In organic environments, a Pest is simply any organism in the wrong place, at the wrong time. All biologists, agro-chemists and hippies agree on that. But, the whole environmental argument comes from who or what is defining the wrong place and wrong time.

So, if the example above could hold (as I assume that a Bug is digital extrapolation on a Pest) who defines what a bug is? The Programmer? The Architect (Apple)? Or the the User?

~Echo

[Chuckit]

A bug is something not working as it was intended to do. Unless the coders were working from a user's specs, what the user wants to do with a program is irrelevant to whether or not there are bugs. (For example, it isn't a bug that Photoshop can't open your audio files. It isn't meant to do so.)

[car1son]

Also, what would be the point of iTunes playing through FUS?

It works like this in my house:

"I have to look up a recipe."

"Not now, I'm listening to the symphony."

"But I need the recipe."

"I'm listening to the symphony."

"Can I do a search while your logged in?"

"No, and the new 'improved' Find won't let me search your recipes folder."

"Then I need to log in."

"I'm trying to listen to the symphony!"

"Dinner will be late."

If you stop thinking about iTunes as an iPod and think about it as a home CD player, amplifier and speakers, it's no longer obvious that iTunes must shut down during FUS. An option might make both uses feasible. Just because you don't use your Mac as a home music system doesn't make a specific behavior "obviously correct".

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by car1son

It works like this in my house:

"I have to look up a recipe."

"Not now, I'm listening to the symphony."

"But I need the recipe."

"I'm listening to the symphony."

"Can I do a search while your logged in?"

"No, and the new 'improved' Find won't let me search your recipes folder."

"Then I need to log in."

"I'm trying to listen to the symphony!"

"Dinner will be late."

If you stop thinking about iTunes as an iPod and think about it as a home CD player, amplifier and speakers, it's no longer obvious that iTunes must shut down during FUS. An option might make both uses feasible. Just because you don't use your Mac as a home music system doesn't make a specific behavior "obviously correct".

Bravo.
In the end it's all about what *any* user wants to do with his computer. A well designed system should be able to understand my needs as well as the needs of all those doing completely different things. Post-NeXT Apple dictates users how to use their computers as opposed to the traditionally user-centric approach of the Macintosh-era Apple. The iTunes/FUS issue is a clear example of the nextified Apple changing their minds (once again) about how to implement a functionality while leaving all those still preferring the old way pedaling in the air, the same way they screwed us during the Mac>OS X platform switch.

[discotronic]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Bravo.
In the end it's all about what *any* user wants to do with his computer. A well designed system should be able to understand my needs as well as the needs of all those doing completely different things. Post-NeXT Apple dictates users how to use their computers as opposed to the traditionally user-centric approach of the Macintosh-era Apple. The iTunes/FUS issue is a clear example of the nextified Apple changing their minds (once again) about how to implement a functionality while leaving all those still preferring the old way pedaling in the air, the same way they screwed us during the Mac>OS X platform switch.

Don't you ever stop bitching?

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's not that the Mac isn't designed for him; he gets that. What he doesn't get is that the Mac never was designed for him in the first place. He is the very geek-aristocracy he opposes, by insisting that the Mac work his way and only his way, and he doesn't even understand this.

The Mac was designed for everybody, that was the beauty of it. It was perfectly capable to work my way as well of everybody's way.
OS X works Steve's way and that's it. You don't like it? You're screwed.
But you don't even understand this.

[Chuckit]

If you people don't want separate users to be separate, don't make separate users. Now stop whining. The solution has already been presented to you.

And to mAxximo: How would the "pre-NeXT Apple" handle the situation of switching users while iTunes is playing? Oh, that's right — it COULDN'T. The OS you prefer is very clearly a single-user one.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by discotronic

Don't you ever stop bitching?

At least I have something to say, whatever it is. It's so much better than being a brainwashed moron you couldn't imagine.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If you people don't want separate users to be separate, don't make separate users. Now stop whining. The solution has already been presented to you.

And to mAxximo: How would the "pre-NeXT Apple" handle the situation of switching users while iTunes is playing? Oh, that's right — it COULDN'T. The OS you prefer is very clearly a single-user one.

Try Panther sometime and report back.
Thanks.

[Randman]

I don't even see what you guys waste bandwidth on his anymore.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Detrius

Anyway, there is one big bug that has been a serious pain-in-my-ass since 10.4 server came out (I doubt you have stumbled across it): I have user home directories on their own volume for safety reasons. When open directory users sit down at the server and log in, the act of logging out forcibly unmounts the user volume, wreaking havoc on the whole system, as the original volume is now unmounted. Any users logged in (locally or over the network) lose access to their home directories. In smaller environments where the server is a computer that gets used, this is devastating. Compared to a debatable opinion on iTunes and FUS, this is a big deal, while yours is not. But then, that's my opinion. Apple may not care about either of these issues.

I think both issues are huge usability flaws. There should be some priority list at Apple to fix this kind of stuff. My perception is they're always fixing Chess, iChat and iPhoto instead.

[discotronic]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

At least I have something to say, whatever it is. It's so much better than being a brainwashed moron you couldn't imagine.

The problem with what you are saying is you don't know when to quit saying it. Get over it. You come in here with the same BS complaints and drive them into the ground with every post you make.

I bet you are a left lane driver that goes five miles under the speed limit. You think you should be able to drive that way because you pay taxes and you paid for your car. You don't care if what you are doing is for the benefit of the majority of the people around you. As long as you get to do things your way and only your way. Any other way is wrong and you just can't stand it.

If the people at Apple thought like you the company would be dead right now. Move over old man because the future is here and it isn't going to let someone like you hold it back.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Try Panther sometime and report back.
Thanks.

I can report that some versions of Panther had a UI bug where one user could force another to listen to their music that was fixed in Tiger. However, if you prefer buggy software, you may use Panther. Or, you know, just not have multiple users since every single gripe you have (permissions, passwords, music playing through FUS, etc.) seems to center around wanting multiple users not to be multiple users.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Bravo.
In the end it's all about what *any* user wants to do with his computer. A well designed system should be able to understand my needs as well as the needs of all those doing completely different things. Post-NeXT Apple dictates users how to use their computers as opposed to the traditionally user-centric approach of the Macintosh-era Apple.

That is such ********, mAxximo, and you KNOW it.

Pre-NeXT Apple DICTATED users how to use their computers by making almost everything you're bitching about IMPOSSIBLE or near-impossible.

Would you be whining about Apple having changed the behavior of iTunes in FUS if there WERE NO FAST USER SWITCHING AT ALL? Of course, you were whining for years and years that Apple dictated that you and your wife use the same settings for all your applications, including sharing the same e-mail program, right? RIGHT? And then, Apple finally responded to your thousands of mindless rants and intelligent flamefests on various BBSs by introducing multiple-user functionality in OS 9. And you rejoiced, knowing it the pinnacle of usability.

The Mac OS 9 multiple-user model was so much better, and gave you all this FREEDOM, right?

Right?

[Randman]

MaXi, what do you do, in your world, if you use FUS and the other listener doesn't want to listen to your collection of Wham!? Or is that a bug as well?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

I think both issues are huge usability flaws. There should be some priority list at Apple to fix this kind of stuff. My perception is they're always fixing Chess, iChat and iPhoto instead.

That's odd.

My perception is that they've been working like crazy at fixing CoreVideo, CoreImage, and CoreAudio.

But that's pro stuff, I guess, so you probably won't be able to relate to that.

Ah, those poor, brainwashed Logic users and their digikid priorities.

[Randman]

Update to Chess? WTF?

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I can report that some versions of Panther had a UI bug where one user could force another to listen to their music that was fixed in Tiger.

No, actually Jaguar was already letting iTunes keep playing while switching accounts and 10.3 broke it at first. 10.3.1 restored the functionality as expected and it was kept that way through 10.3.9. Tiger broke it once more, should be fixed soon back to how's supposed to be.

I wouldn't mind a preference for those of you that —even when not using FUS at all— think things should be different.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by analogika

But that's pro stuff, I guess, so you probably won't be able to relate to that.

Dude, I work at one of the top post houses in the US. You work at home so shut up.

[Randman]

See, Maxi can't answer my question.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Dude, I work at one of the top post houses in the US.

Playing chess, no doubt, since you managed to completely miss CoreGraphics?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Randman

See, Maxi can't answer my question.

My Chess is version 2.1, with date last changed 27th March 2004.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

No, actually Jaguar was already letting iTunes keep playing while switching accounts and 10.3 broke it at first.

Jaguar didn't have Fast User Switching.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Jaguar didn't have Fast User Switching.

smack...down?

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by analogika

Playing chess, no doubt, since you managed to completely miss CoreGraphics?

Oh, tell me, which application that matters to me is currently making use of CoreGaphics?
I thought so.

[Randman]

Maxi reminds me of a slow kid. Nice enough but slow. He comes by all of the time and spouts the kind of stuff that a slow kid might spout. You try to ignore him, you yell at him but it never sinks in because he's a slow kid, so you just kind of let him hang around and tolerate him because he's slow and won't know better and really isn't destructive, just damn annoying even though you kinda feel sorry for him because he is a slow kid.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Jaguar didn't have Fast User Switching.

You're right, my bad memory.
So 10.3 allowed playback, 10.3.1 broke it, 10.3.2 fixed it back.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Oh, tell me, which application that matters to me is currently making use of CoreGaphics?
I thought so.

Every application with a graphical user interface makes use of CoreGraphics (also known as Quartz). Maybe some applications that matter to you are drawing using QuickDraw, OpenGL or using custom drawing routines into the window buffer, but the WindowServer at least then uses Quartz to bring the windows on screen.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

The Mac was designed for everybody, that was the beauty of it.

The Mac was not designed for "everybody". No computer ever made has been designed "for everybody", because it cannot be done; people are simply too different. They think and learn in different ways, and they use computers for very different things.

OSX, and OS9 before it, are designed for people new to computers, to perform basic computing tasks. They have a foothold in design only because of the happy coincidence that PageMaker first appeared on Macs.

It was perfectly capable to work my way as well of everybody's way.

Ah, and here we see your arrogance. You assume that you use computers in the "natural", "intuitive" way. You do not, but this is no fault of your own; the truth of the matter is that there is no natural, intuitive way to use computers. This was one of the first things discovered in usability research. All computer interfaces must be learned, and the original Mac OS was never any different. The AHIGs were a bunch of theories on what might make a computer interface easier to learn, and what really mattered when it came to consistency of interface. Some of these theories turned out to be correct, some only partially correct, and some outright wrong. Your precious heroes -Tog, Raskin, Atkinson, and the rest- were brilliant men, but men they remained; they were not the infallible gods you make them out to be. If UI is a science, then its theories cannot remain static, as you would have them. It is in the nature of science to grow and change, as theories are refined or rejected in the face of new information.

During the Enlightenment, Tycho Brahe made a series of measurements of the celestial bodies, in an attempt to prove that the Sun revolved around the Earth. His measurements were remarkably accurate, even by today's standards, but his successor -Johannes Kepler- came to realize that rather than proving Brahe's theories, these very measurements actually disproved them. Did he stay silent? No, he did not. He was not so arrogant as to cling to the old authorities in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. Why, then, should you?

OSX is different from OS9, but adaptation is not difficult. It was made in a different time, and addresses information and issues which were not well-understood (and in a few cases, did not even exist) when the original AHIGs were created. Many of the old theories still hold true as far as we are aware, and when they still hold true Apple has continued to follow them. But not all of the theories panned out, and Apple was not so arrogant or blind as to slavishly cling to those which no longer fit.

But you don't even understand this.

No, mAxximo, it is you who does not understand.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Oh, tell me, which application that matters to me is currently making use of CoreGaphics?

Almost every Mac application (i.e. those with any kind of GUI, unless they go completely through OpenGL). Even the QuickDraw and X11 APIs go through CoreGraphics nowadays.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Dude, I work at one of the top post houses in the US. You work at home so shut up.

You are not happy unless you are insinuating those who don't prefer your methods are brainwashed morons, and those of us who work at home are something less than you are.

What does working at home have to do with anything? I rather enjoy it myself.

Mods : why do you let this person keep insulting people?