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vja4him · Jul 2, 2005, 10:27 PM

Why is the Mac OSX sooo primitive? I can't even delete selected items from the Trash! Windows is far superior to the Mac OSX !!!

-- Windows addict
--- Windows rules!!!

CreepingDeth · Jul 2, 2005, 10:29 PM

*Sigh*
Just take the ones you don't want in there out and empty the trash.

And I seriously hope you're kidding about Windows ruling.

CharlesS · Jul 2, 2005, 10:42 PM

vja4him · Jul 2, 2005, 10:50 PM

Creeping Deth -- Thanks for the reply. Is there no other way to empty only certain items from the trash? It really doesn't matter to me, but my roommate is coming up with so many complaints against my G4 iBook, and Mac OSX. I have tried to respectfully help him to adjust to the Mac, but he keeps complaining about things, some of them I've never even thought were a problem myself. These are just some of the complaints my roommate has made against the Mac:

1- Can't tell which windows are open, or where the different windows are. Should have a color border around each window that is open like they do on Windows XP
2- Can't empty the Trash the same way as on Windows XP (On XP you can get rid of files with only one key stroke, and can't delete only certain files from the Trash like you can on Wndows XP)
3- The Mac isn't logical, and is so primitive
4- Something about wanting to scroll a window that is in the background. He doesn't like the way it works on my Mac, where you see a window in the background, and you can scroll that window, but the entire window doesn't automatically come forward, like it does on the Wndows XP
5- Thinks it is too difficult to get to the files that he downloads. He wants to simply drag the downloaded file from the Download Folder to his removable device, and not leave to file on my harddrive at all. He doesn't like the way that the Mac copies the file to his removable device, and then leaves the original copy still on my harddrive.
6- Numerous other complaints, which seem to me simply nit-picky, and senseless complaints

-- vjamacaddict
--- Macs rule forever!!!

-- G4 iBook, OSX 10.3.9

Originally Posted by CreepingDeth

*Sigh*
Just take the ones you don't want in there out and empty the trash.

And I seriously hope you're kidding about Windows ruling.

jasonsRX7 · Jul 2, 2005, 11:29 PM

I'm a Windows network admin, and here's my take on it

1 - Not a problem. Of all the transitional issues I faced when moving to Macs in my personal life, that was never one of them
2 - No more difficult than Windows, just a different way of doing it.
3 - Too vague
4 - If you want to change the Window focus, just click it. Pretty handy if you don't want to change the focus.
5 - Dragging a file between partitions/drives in Windows copies the file also. A key modifier in OS X changes it to a move function.
6 - You're right

People either approach using Macs with an open mind, or they don't. The ones that don't will nit pick and complain about everything thats different. The ones that make a genuine attempt find that it is simple matter. Of course, your friend could also just be stupid and incapable of learning, lets hope that's not the case.

Krusty · Jul 3, 2005, 12:21 AM

1-Use Expose (F9, F10, F11) OR just click on the dock icon of the application window you are looking for and they will rush to the front (and on many apps, like Safari, click and hold on the dock icon and you'll see all of the app's available open window and can navigate directly to the one you want). To me, this is the weirdest of your complaints ... OS X's window management is head and shoulders above WinXP, IMHO. XP's stupid-@ss "stacking" behavior is one of the most poorly thought-out concepts I've even seen from a design standpoint. Your roommate using OS X for a while is probably the best thing that could happen for his general computer knowledge ... he'll at least learn the way Windows does it is just one of many possible ways that windows can be managed. XP has gone so many years now without a functionality update (with at least another 1.5 to go) that I think a lot of people simply don't know that many other ways exists (even in the history of Windows) to handle these things.

2- Get rid of files in one keystroke. On a Mac, you hold the command(cloverleaf) key while hitting delete and it does the same thing as delete in Windows. If you have problems emptying the trash, some file in it is probably in use by a program. The only true advantage I see with XP is the ability to selectively delete files already in the trash and restore them to original locations.

3- Obviously a matter of opinion. Just don't confuse "logical" with "what you're used to". I've used both platforms extensively for years and the Mac OS seems to follow its rules of operation far more consistently than Windows. Not sure what you mean by "primitive" ... judging from the Longhorn preview videos I've seen, the Longhorn versions of things that OS X already has still look clunkier than OS X even though they will have had 2.5 years to make them better than what is in OS X right now.

4- no clue what you're talking about.

5 -see above. Drive-to-drive moves of files works identically in OS X and Windows and they both have a modifier key that can be pressed to alter that behavior.

Items 1, 2, and 5 fall squarely under "Read the F'ing Manual". The OSes ARE different.

Another tip for new OS X users. Document based programs in OS X have a logical separation between a program running and having a window open. I won't go on my usual tirade about why this is a better design concept. I'll just leave it at this: closing the last window of a program doesn't "Quit" the program like it does in Windows. That one seems to screw Windows migrators up every time.

CharlesS · Jul 3, 2005, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by vja4him

1- Can't tell which windows are open, or where the different windows are. Should have a color border around each window that is open like they do on Windows XP

Can't tell which windows are open?

That really makes no sense.

As to where they are, you can find any window quickly with Exposé.

2- Can't empty the Trash the same way as on Windows XP (On XP you can get rid of files with only one key stroke, and can't delete only certain files from the Trash like you can on Wndows XP)

That's not a bug, it's a feature. The Trash can was invented for a reason. Accidentally deleted something? It's okay, you can still get it out of the Trash before you empty it. Having one keystroke delete the file outright is dangerous.

Oh, and if this complaint is about something stupid like having to use Command-Delete instead of just Delete to put something in the Trash, then I'll have to give you that one - having just Delete does indeed make it much easier for a 4-year-old kid to inadvertently put that important file of yours in the Recycle Bin simply by thwacking on the keyboard.

3- The Mac isn't logical, and is so primitive

Uh huh. Because Windows, with the Registry, multiple open ports by default, ActiveX, and auto-launching all kinds of crap, is so much more logical.

Dumping crap all over the hard drive and Registry just to install a shareware app so you can try it out? That makes so much more sense than dragging it to the Applications folder (or just running it from the Desktop).

4- Something about wanting to scroll a window that is in the background. He doesn't like the way it works on my Mac, where you see a window in the background, and you can scroll that window, but the entire window doesn't automatically come forward, like it does on the Wndows XP

Huh?

5- Thinks it is too difficult to get to the files that he downloads. He wants to simply drag the downloaded file from the Download Folder to his removable device, and not leave to file on my harddrive at all. He doesn't like the way that the Mac copies the file to his removable device, and then leaves the original copy still on my harddrive.

And this is different from Windows how? You can hold down the Command key to do a move instead of a copy.

6- Numerous other complaints, which seem to me simply nit-picky, and senseless complaints

From the looks of things, there's a reason for that.

mpancha · Jul 3, 2005, 09:08 AM

hmm, your room mates "complaints" are valid for a complete novice switching from Windows.

I went through a lot of that when I got my first IBook back in 2001. It takes awhile to adjust your way of working between Windows and Mac. But if you quit complaining and start seeking solutions, you end up working more efficiently on both Windows and Mac.

Keep in mind, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Sounds like your room mate just wants to gripe, if he ever wants help, he'll come to you for it without griping.

broxy5 · Jul 3, 2005, 11:42 AM

Expose was enough of a reason to switch for me. I find I never can tell which windows are open in Windows. Very confusing. All you have is the tiny little taskbar. Right click of the mouse, or a little tap on the top right corner of trackpad (sidetrack) and viola!!

mitchell_pgh · Jul 3, 2005, 12:13 PM

It's the trash... At home, do you throw stuff in trash for safe keeping? If you aren't going to throw it away, don't put it in the trash.

Your friend really only has ONE complaint... "It's not windows"

And if he doesn't like it, why is he using it?

mitchell_pgh · Jul 3, 2005, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by broxy5

Expose was enough of a reason to switch for me. I find I never can tell which windows are open in Windows. Very confusing. All you have is the tiny little taskbar. Right click of the mouse, or a little tap on the top right corner of trackpad (sidetrack) and viola!!

I also hate that you MUST keep some windows open in Windows. If you close the Acrobat window... the program quits. The "window in window" this in Windows is very 1995-ish.

I could go on and on, but why bother.

PacHead · Jul 3, 2005, 12:43 PM

Your roommate is obviously deeply disturbed, and aparrently a moron.

Just don't let him use your Mac, problem solved.

Drakino · Jul 3, 2005, 01:25 PM

2- Can't empty the Trash the same way as on Windows XP (..., and can't delete only certain files from the Trash like you can on Wndows XP)

This I always find amusing. The Trash/Recycle Bin is NOT a place to store files. But yet people do it anyhow for some odd reason. I had a coworker get really upset when Outlook emptied his "Deleted Items" folder to save space on the server. I asked him why he was upset, and his response was that he had important e-mails in there.

I don't store my morgage bill in my trash can at home, nor do I store my important project files in the Trash on my Mac. How is "I can't delete only certain files" a valid complaint when all those files are in an area that theoretically means the files aren't needed anymore?

1- Can't tell which windows are open, or where the different windows are. Should have a color border around each window that is open like they do on Windows XP

I think I know this complaint. The Windows Taskbar puts an entry in it for every open window, not every program. The OS X dock will only have one Safari icon even if I have 10 windows open. It's something different. Ironicially, XP goes to a method where it groups all the windows from an app under one icon, going to an interface very similar to what happens when you right click an OS X icon in the dock. Most XP users love this feature for some reason, but yet still bash OS X. Now that I have settled into OS X, I much prefer the window managment with expose then the Windows way. I'm having to show a friend these advantages on his eMac, as he did an OS 9 -> Windows switch, and only recently started looking at OS X again, after the disaster that was 10.0.

mitchell_pgh · Jul 3, 2005, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Drakino

I think I know this complaint. The Windows Taskbar puts an entry in it for every open window, not every program.

Not exactly... once the task bar becomes "full", it starts lumping some together. It also has the lovely ability to truncate every title when it becomes even slightly full. God forbid if you have 10 images full all with the title "Rome in the Winter - Shot 001" sequentially.

Also, OS X has the lovely icon to let you know exactly which program every open window belongs to.

Drakino · Jul 3, 2005, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Not exactly... once the task bar becomes "full", it starts lumping some together. It also has the lovely ability to truncate every title when it becomes even slightly full. God forbid if you have 10 images full all with the title "Rome in the Winter - Shot 001" sequentially.

Also, OS X has the lovely icon to let you know exactly which program every open window belongs to.

As I went on to explain, XP does group things togther, but no other version of Windows does that. And when it groups, clicking on the program brings up a non truncated list. (unless the window title has enough text to fill the width of your screen). Lastly, hovering over the entries on the taskbar does show the full name, similar to the dock showing a name when hovering over the icons.

Now, in the interest of being fair, XP does allow that feature to be turned off or changed. As far as I know, there is no way to represent every window in the Dock. So to me, it is a valid complaint from the point of view of "The Windows taskbar is more flexable". Looking at just the Dock vs Taskbar, I have to agree. Expanding this into a full window managment discussion, OS X gives more possibilities with the Dock + Expose + the Alt Tab bar then what Windows offers with the Taskbar + Alt Tab.

The Windows Taskbar does have the icon of the program left justified in the space given to the program. True, the OS X Ones look nicer and can scale higher, but Windows has icons too.

mpancha · Jul 3, 2005, 03:31 PM

os x has expose, and the only good feature of it to me is the tiling of all apps on the screen.

but besides that, the taskbar and the dock/expose/alt tab.... are one and the same

broxy5 · Jul 3, 2005, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

os x has expose, and the only good feature of it to me is the tiling of all apps on the screen.

but besides that, the taskbar and the dock/expose/alt tab.... are one and the same

apple+tab is cool! Never saw that one before. This is why I have become a macnn addict!
One more windows complaint if I may, I love it when you have a pile of windows in a browser open, and all it says on the taskbar is 'explorer 10 windows' or something like that. Good luck finding what you want.

mpancha · Jul 3, 2005, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by broxy5

apple+tab is cool! Never saw that one before. This is why I have become a macnn addict!
One more windows complaint if I may, I love it when you have a pile of windows in a browser open, and all it says on the taskbar is 'explorer 10 windows' or something like that. Good luck finding what you want.

Apple+Tab (OSX) = (ALt + Tab) Windows..... not a new thing. but yea, it is a nice feature

when it says explorer 10 windows, u click and hold and it lists every windows "title" for you... ust like the dock does when u right click on an open app that has multiple windows open.

mitchell_pgh · Jul 3, 2005, 06:49 PM

While I have heard numerous times that the task bar is "better" than the dock... it's usually hardcore Windows users that make such accusations. I'm a visual person and will say that the dock is meant for visual people. (I can literally have 40+ windows open with OS X and have little trouble finding them. I do not feel that way on Windows.

Expose offers another dimension of select-ability.

Drakino · Jul 3, 2005, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

Apple+Tab (OSX) = (ALt + Tab) Windows..... not a new thing. but yea, it is a nice feature

Not exactly. Alt+Tab on Windows switches programs and thats it.
Alt+Tab on OS X doesn't show ever programs windows, but it does allow things like tapping Q (letting go of tab but not alt) to quit a program, or H to hide it. Usually if I want to rapidly quit several programs, I use the alt method.

While I have heard numerous times that the task bar is "better" than the dock... it's usually hardcore Windows users that make such accusations.

I don't consider myself a hardcore Windows user. Windows for me serves one function. To act as a gaming PC. Anyhow, comparing just the dock vs the taskbar, it is going to be something that people will come to different conclusions on. For me and many others, the lack of a representation of specific windows in the dock without a context click seems odd. I have adapted to the OS X dock now after 3 years of use, but I still have to dig under the GUI to do things like pin it to a corner, and have hidden apps look slightly transparent. A toggle of some sort either showing windows or programs would be great similar to XP, but Apple in many cases forces things their exact way.

I'm a visual person and will say that the dock is meant for visual people. (I can literally have 40+ windows open with OS X and have little trouble finding them. I do not feel that way on Windows.

For me, my ease of finding windows came only with 10.3 and Expose, something completly unrelated to the dock. I now prefer OS X window managment over Windows in most cases, but only considering OS X as a whole and not a single piece like the dock.

mpancha · Jul 3, 2005, 10:13 PM

the one thing I still can't stand, and I know this has been brought up elsewehere in macnn.... the finder in osx for me is still pathetic. it can do a few nice things here and there... but I"ll take Windows Explorer over the OS X finder anyday.

broxy5 · Jul 3, 2005, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

the one thing I still can't stand, and I know this has been brought up elsewehere in macnn.... the finder in osx for me is still pathetic. it can do a few nice things here and there... but I"ll take Windows Explorer over the OS X finder anyday.

Really??? I was just complaining about explorer today. You can type in the exact name of a file, hit search, go for coffee, then by the time you come back, if you are lucky it will have found it.
Someone at work left, and we are left trying to sort out his cryptic way of saving and placing files. Makes searching with explorer a huge pain! Being fairly new around here, I love how finder works almost as fast as you type (slow typer). I can't wait to try Spotlight.

Randman · Jul 3, 2005, 11:35 PM

The funny thing is that so many people use Windows and think that's the only way to do things, even if it makes no logical sense. Then they switch platforms and want everything the same, for comfort, rather than having a brain cell or two and experimenting and finding new things, many of which are likely better than the poor implementation of Windows.

Big Mac · Jul 4, 2005, 02:36 AM

I feel particularly psychic tonight. . . I see. . . a giant lock. . . for this thread!

ghporter · Jul 4, 2005, 06:52 AM

Tell your roomie to get his own computer. Further, this is entirely about Mac OS, NOT about iBooks. Tell roomie to complain about OS X in our Mac OS forum.

mpancha · Jul 4, 2005, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by broxy5

Really??? I was just complaining about explorer today. You can type in the exact name of a file, hit search, go for coffee, then by the time you come back, if you are lucky it will have found it.
Someone at work left, and we are left trying to sort out his cryptic way of saving and placing files. Makes searching with explorer a huge pain! Being fairly new around here, I love how finder works almost as fast as you type (slow typer). I can't wait to try Spotlight.

spotlight = windows search --- spotlight wins
windows explorer = finder --- that's personal preference. both are equally good, and both equally suck... to me, explorer sucks a lot less.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I feel particularly psychic tonight. . . I see. . . a giant lock. . . for this thread!

I dunno, as long as no one turns this into a flame war, and actually discusses, there's no reason to lock the thread. then again, macnn history shows, that a biased flame war is inevitable in just about every thread.

Originally Posted by randman

The funny thing is that so many people use Windows and think that's the only way to do things, even if it makes no logical sense. Then they switch platforms and want everything the same, for comfort, rather than having a brain cell or two and experimenting and finding new things, many of which are likely better than the poor implementation of Windows.

like I said, I went through the same emotions when I first tried a mac running os x after many years of classic which i despised.... it takes awhile to get used to it, especially if you're an avid computer user, you get set in your ways, and its hard to change them. Some people are more stubborn than others... you can't change how a person is wired.

Even with myself, I hated os x for at least the first year... granted it was 10.0 and still had a ways to go, and my iBook at the time was a 500mhz with only 512 mb of ram, and crawled.... but I've grown to love OS X.... but not to the point where I'm a switcher. I use both my PC and Mac about the same amount.

doucy2 · Jul 4, 2005, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by PacHead

Your roommate is obviously deeply disturbed, and aparrently a moron.

Just don't let him use your Mac, problem solved.

i second that
if they dont love macs dont let them touch them

ghporter · Jul 4, 2005, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by mpancha

I dunno, as long as no one turns this into a flame war, and actually discusses, there's no reason to lock the thread.

Yes there is-it is in the wrong forum. If you want to talk about Mac OS, post THERE.

Kyros · Jul 6, 2005, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Yes there is-it is in the wrong forum. If you want to talk about Mac OS, post THERE.

Move might work better than lock in this case, as it seems this is one of the few Mac vs. Windows threads that hasn't erupted into a flame war.

tie · Jul 6, 2005, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by vja4him

6- Numerous other complaints, which seem to me simply nit-picky, and senseless complaints

A good OS is all about avoiding the nitpicks. I take for granted basic stability, and get it for the most part on both Windows and Mac. I want more than that.

Since the public beta, X's code for placing icons has been broken. I hate it when two icons end up on the desktop on top of each other, or when a window opens scrolled over to the side. The trash should empty and not give permissions problems. The Finder preferences should be meaningful; if I click "Give warning before emptying Trash," I want it to show a warning. The Airport menu is broken, like in Windows XP prior to the service packs. The Dock is broken in many ways: it is unstable, sometimes refusing to show when I move the mouse over to it; the menu sometimes requires a click-and-hold, sometimes a click-and-release is enough. When I say I want to open a .tex file in TeXShop, it should open in TeXShop, instead of immediately reverting back to ScriptEditor. (Whoever at Apple broke the file associations code should be shot.) Drag-and-drop text no longer works as it did in classic Mac OS, but more like Windows. This is primitive.

I don't know that I'd call most of these bugs "primitive," but Apple seems to have lost its focus on making things work properly. Some of these bugs have been around since the public beta.

At the moment, Mac OS is ahead of Windows in terms of features. We get UNIX, X11, Spotlight, Aqua, Exposé, Dashboard, etc. These are great. But the Windows Finder is superior, file associations work in Windows, there is better built-in control of wireless networks... In my own day-to-day usage at least, Mac has fallen behind in the nitpick department.

analogika · Jul 7, 2005, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by tie

When I say I want to open a .tex file in TeXShop, it should open in TeXShop, instead of immediately reverting back to ScriptEditor. (Whoever at Apple broke the file associations code should be shot.) Drag-and-drop text no longer works as it did in classic Mac OS, but more like Windows. This is primitive.

I don't get the file association problems.

And what are you talking about wrt text dragging (apart from the fact that it works across applications, to the desktop, across Exposé, and across Apple-Tab - none of which, AFAIK, work on a standard install of Windows XP)?

alphasubzero949 · Jul 7, 2005, 02:41 AM

Randman · Jul 7, 2005, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Superchicken · Jul 7, 2005, 02:49 AM

I feel dumber for having read... actually wait I didn't read the whole thread... I got a head ache....