[madra [again!]]

so steve jobs thinks that on the clockface of the transition to OSX we're at about 4 o'clock and will be at 6 o'clock in about 8 weeks time? hmmm. let's see what we've got so far that actually functions properly and improves on what we had in 9....

01. finder................................ NO
02. basic text editor.............. YES
03. email app........................ NO
04. web browser....................NO
05. bitmap graphics app......NO
06. vector graphics app........NO
07. PDF viewer.......................YES
08. word processor...............NO
09. spreadsheet.....................NO
10. command line app..........YES
11. sound editor......................NO
12. video editor........................YES
13. multimedia authoring......NO
14. MP3 player.........................NO
15. DVD player.........................NO
16. CD burning........................NO
17. idisc....................................YES
18. developer apps.................YES
19. 3D software.......................NO
20. WYSIWYG web design....NO
21. full hardware support.......NO
22. full GUI access to prefs....NO
23. page layout.........................NO
24. PIM........................................NO


that's 24 items which i think pretty much cover the core 'usability' of the OS and the range of applications which between us all we are likely to most want to run on X. and how have we done so far?... 6 out of 24 = 3 out of 12. so it looks like it's only 3 o'clock after all. perhaps steve's watch is an hour fast, in which case expect to see 10,1 some time in october.

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: madra [again!] ]

[SirCastor]

Maybe the first hour was gettng the Darn thing out to people.


As for your list... why no on the MP3?
I think iTunes is an improvement on The Mac OS 9 Version.

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: SirCastor ]

[frawgz]

05. bitmap graphics app......NO

I realize they don't quite compare to Photoshop, but they give us more choices in their respective areas: GraphicConverter, GIMP, TIFFany?

06. vector graphics app........NO

Freehand 10? Toon Boom Studio?

11. sound editor......................NO

Player PRO? Sound Studio? Audacity?

14. MP3 player.........................NO

iTunes? Audion 2.5? I'm getting confused now. Other than crappy framerates, iTunes is virtually identical to the OS 9 version, and meets 99% of MP3 playing needs.

19. 3D software.......................NO

Bryce 5, Cinema 4D. And I realize they're coming *later*, but these options would not have been possible without Mac OS X: Maya, LightWave, Vue d'Esprit.


BTW, Steve meant 4'oclock as in it's roughly 4 months into Mac OS X's projected 12 month rollout. Not 4/12 of important apps have been released.

[frawgz]

Oh, and pardon the consecutive posting, but you left out games. Almost all of which are being launched across OS 9 and OS X simultaneously. Widespread reports also point to their running faster on Mac OS X (mind you, this is BEFORE the "20% faster" OpenGL of 10.1 fame).

Heavy Metal F.A.K.K. 2, Quake 3, Oni, Tomb Raider: Chronicles, Alice, Cro-Mag, Tony Hawk. Is there more? I don't know, probably.

[theolein]

Originally posted by madra [again!]:
<STRONG>
01. finder................................ NO
02. basic text editor.............. YES
03. email app........................ NO
04. web browser....................NO
05. bitmap graphics app......NO
06. vector graphics app........NO
07. PDF viewer.......................YES
08. word processor...............NO
09. spreadsheet.....................NO
10. command line app..........YES
11. sound editor......................NO
12. video editor........................YES
13. multimedia authoring......NO
14. MP3 player.........................NO
15. DVD player.........................NO
16. CD burning........................NO
17. idisc....................................YES
18. developer apps.................YES
19. 3D software.......................NO
20. WYSIWYG web design....NO
21. full hardware support.......NO
22. full GUI access to prefs....NO
23. page layout.........................NO
24. PIM........................................NO
</STRONG>

25.Built in Web Server..................Yes
26.Access to System....................Yes
27.Server Programming...............Yes
28.Open Source Software.............Yes
29.Advanced Networking...............Yes
30.Stable OS ...................................Yes
31.PHP............................................ ..Yes
32.MySQL.......................................... .Yes
33.UNIX........................................... ...Yes
34.Java1.3........................................ ..Yes

Sort of evens it out a bit, doesn't it?

[madra [again!]]

As for your list... why no on the MP3?

because it's got less functionality than was available in 9. itunes is just soundjam with the graphic equaliser removed

BTW, Steve meant 4 'oclock as in it's roughly 4 months into Mac OS X's projected 12 month rollout. Not 4/12 of important apps have been released.

yes, i know that. that's not the point i was making. i was just listing the range of things we'd need to see in X to put it on a par with what we've left behind in 9 and then seeing how many '12ths' of the way there we were. steve said 4/12. i made it 3/12.

as regards the apps you mention. they're all either betas or X versions of classic apps and have less functionality than those they supposedly supercede.

and yes. i did forget completely forget games. being such a hardworking chap i never have time for them myself so it slipped my mind. sorry. mind you at present it would have to be...

games........................NO

as regards the server side stuff. yes that is all pretty cool and much better than we had in 9. i dunno if i'd break it up into so many seperate categories tho'. let's say.......

webserver.................YES

which fortuantely enough preserves my average.

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: madra [again!] ]

[curmi]

Originally posted by madra [again!]:
<STRONG>so steve jobs thinks that on the clockface of the transition to OSX we're at about 4 o'clock and will be at 6 o'clock in about 8 weeks time? hmmm. let's see what we've got so far that actually functions properly and improves on what we had in 9....

01. finder................................ NO
02. basic text editor.............. YES
</STRONG>

Actually I'd say NO to the text editor. Still doesn't support type/creator codes, and therefore doesn't follow Apple's own guidelines.

[OwlBoy]

Damn people are babies.

I wish people would just not use it if they hate it so much and think OS 9 is so much better...

Don't that make sence? 'OS 9 is better = Use OS 9'

-Owl

[billybob]

how is 3 oclock "nowhere near" 4 oclock?

besides, there's a lot more stuff to consider than just what apps we have available (which is basically all your list consists of). Stuff like what theolein listed. Plus so much more.

I do realize its hard to consider that were "one third" of the way through the transition, considering how much improvement OSX could use (although i still use it as my main OS on my mac. havent booted into 9 for like 7 weeks). I think once 10.1 comes out (i cant believe we have to wait til september!!), the transition will start to be more realized. OSX will trully start shining.

Are you mad?

&gt;02. basic text editor.............. YES

I thing BBEdit is quite good.

&gt;03. email app........................ NO

I thing Eudora is quite good.

&gt;04. web browser....................NO

I think OmniWeb, iCab, Fizilla, Opera and Ie are quite good.

&gt;13. multimedia authoring......NO

Perhaps.. but multimedia _serving_ are lightyears ahead.

&gt;14. MP3 player.........................NO

Even Finder can play MP3s.

&gt;22. full GUI access to prefs....NO

It's not even there in OS9, but OSX allows acess to them anyway.

&gt;24. PIM........................................NO

But Adress book included.

[madra [again!]]

Are you mad?

no, but i wish the voices would shut up!

listen folks, i didn't say that i was basing my deep penetrating analysis on this metaphorical 'time' thing solely on what apps where available [that's why i included hardware support in the list] but let's face it, the primary reason we buy comps is to run apps.

all i'm daring to suggest is that several months into X, looking across a broad range of commonly used applications i don't see much that has improved on the functionality of what we had in 9. is there anyone out there who actually feels close to being able to ditch classic and get all they want done purely in X? because in my neck of the woods [graphic design/ web design etc] it certainly doesn't feel anywhere near being one third of the way to complete reliance on X.

and no, owl boy, i won't go back to 9. it's an unstable POS. i've been using X as my primary OS snce the day my CD arrived and i love the stability and the built in webserver and unix underpinnings but what else is there?

most of the apps i actually use to do any work with are running in classic. the only decent fully functional X equivalent to a tool i've been using in 9 so far has been BBedit. everything else has either lost functionality in the transition to X or is still in beta. and that's the point i was trying to make. right across that broad range of app types i listed, there are very few areas where we have apps now in X that outperform or add to the capabilities of what was available in that area in 9.

when i first started using X i was amazed that i could go for weeks without crashing but i take that for granted now. i want some solid feature-perfect apps so i can bin classic for good. and i want them yesterday!

[frawgz]

Originally posted by madra [again!]:
<STRONG>is there anyone out there who actually feels close to being able to ditch classic and get all they want done purely in X?</STRONG>

I'm definitely not there yet, but I DO feel close. When that magical time at the end of the rainbow called "fall" comes, I think I'll be there. Why? 10.1, Word, VPC. Enough said - I'm no pro user, so given OS X's stability, a great integrated music player, a variety of more than adequate web browsers, the MS Office Suite, and VPC for my other-wordly needs, I really won't have anymore to complain about.

And if you don't mind my asking, why do games get a NO in your opinion?

[Spirit_VW]

<STRONG>
01. finder................................ NO
</STRONG>

Speedwise, sure, it's worse than in 9. But the Toolbar...Column View...it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

<STRONG>
03. email app........................ NO
</STRONG>

Mail is an excellent consumer-oriented e-mail program. Isn't Eudora carbonized, too?

<STRONG>
04. web browser....................NO
</STRONG>

I guess Internet Explorer, OmniWeb, Fizzilla, iCab, and heck, even Lynx, don't count?

<STRONG>
05. bitmap graphics app......NO
</STRONG>

While not quite Photoshop, we do have GIMP, TIFFany, GraphicConverter...

<STRONG>
06. vector graphics app........NO
</STRONG>

Err, what about Freehand 10?

<STRONG>
08. word processor...............NO
</STRONG>

Funny, I click on "Appleworks 6" and click Word Processor, and there it is.

<STRONG>
09. spreadsheet.....................NO
</STRONG>

See above. While it's not Excel (some might see this as a GOOD thing), it IS a spreadsheet program.

<STRONG>
11. sound editor......................NO
</STRONG>

Oh come on now...I've seen several on Version Tracker. In fact, I tried one out - forget the name though.

<STRONG>
14. MP3 player.........................NO
</STRONG>

Umm....&lt;knock knock&gt; anybody home up there? Did somebody say iTunes? Or Audion? Two of the best MP3 players out there? Helloooooo in there! Heck, even the FINDER can play MP3s.

<STRONG>
15. DVD player.........................NO
</STRONG>

Which, to be fair, is coming in 10.1....

<STRONG>
16. CD burning........................NO
</STRONG>

You can burn music CDs in iTunes, and there's a test version of Toast 5 Titanium out that runs on OS X.

<STRONG>
19. 3D software.......................NO
</STRONG>

Bryce 5, Cinema 4D.

<STRONG>
22. full GUI access to prefs....NO
</STRONG>

Like that was in OS 9....

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by madra [again!]:
<STRONG>

and yes. i did forget completely forget games. being such a hardworking chap i never have time for them myself so it slipped my mind. sorry. mind you at present it would have to be...

games........................NO
</STRONG>

To which I reply:

American McGee's Alice. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2. Quake 3. Tomb Raider: Chronicles. Tropico. Fly! 2. Baldur's Gate 2. WarCraft 3. Red Faction. Summoner (if I'm not mistaken.)

All either already shipped, or coming soon.

Games..............YES.

[Milio]

Folks, whether Madra's example is defensible or not, whether you like OS X or not, take a moment.

By presenting the "clock", Steve presented OS X as being unfinished until 12:00. He said it is the transition timeline, but presented 6:00 as the release of 10.1 which is not a transition milestone, but a development one.

That means that at 12:00 we will see a "finished" OS X. By saying that 10.1 is only halfway finished, they have said that 10.0 was known to be unfinished. Let me repeat, they are selling for full-price a known, unfinished OS.

I accept that what is done is done, and that Apple needed to release something in order to start. But if 10.1 is a half-finished OS X as presented by Steve, then 12:00 will only be twice what 10.1 is. For the sake of OS X's success, I would much, much rather that 10.1 is closer to 1:00 or 2:00.

I also have to wonder where 12:00 - 24:00 will take us.

[ph@lmi.net]

text editor.....NO

BBEdit!

video editor......YES

Final Cut Pro?

thanks to Toast, FCP and DVD are my last reasons to boot into Nine.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Oh ya, I forgot about Final Cut Pro? Why the hell is Apple not carbonizing its own Apps? What do you think is a higher priority, iDVD 2 or Final Cut?

Yawn.

[smacintush]

and no, owl boy, i won't go back to 9. it's an unstable POS. i've been using X as my primary OS snce the day my CD arrived and i love the stability and the built in webserver and unix underpinnings but what else is there?

This sort of negates your whole point. I too have been using X exclusively since I installed it, I don't even like to see 9. Somehow, with all its flaws it is more inviting than 9 is, it looks better, it feels better, and there is a peace of mind knowing that if you click something WRONG you don't get the "White Screen of Death" dialog. I think you are exaggerating most of the claims on your list and since most of these are third party problems, you should lighten up.

NEW LIST:
01. finder................................ YES
02. basic text editor.............. YES
03. email app........................ YES
05. PDF viewer.......................YES
06. word processor...............YES
07. spreadsheet.....................YES
08. command line app..........YES
09. MP3 player.........................YES
10. DVD player.........................NO
11. CD burning........................SORT OF
12. idisc....................................YES
13. developer apps.................YES
14. full hardware support.......NO
15. full GUI access to prefs....NO
16. Screen Saver ...........YES
17. Customizable toolbar........YES
18. TRUE multi-user environment........YES
19. Global services.........[ahem]
YES
20. Force Quit that actually FORCES something to QUIT....YES
21. Finder "undo".....YES
22. Window backgrounds........YES
24. Kick-ass column view.........YES
23. smacintush grasping for substantive items.......YES

[mikerally]

Skywalker, iDVD 2 would be a higher priority. Because if iDVD 2 isn't ready when 10.1 ships, how can Apple Mac OS X as the default OS?

Has anybody noticed here how all the apps that are bundled with your iMac or PowerMac G4 are being Carbonised for a September release?


iMovie = done
iTunes = done
iDVD 2 = on it's way
Discburner = on it's way
DVD Player = on it's way
Appleworks = done
Quicktime = done, but needs working
FaxSTF = on it's way
World Book Encyclopedia = done
Cro-Mag Rally/Bugdom = on their way/done

Imagine all this software, plus what I've forgotten to mention, all carbonised and shipping as free software with your iMac/PowerMac G4 running natively in Mac OS X which is the default OS.

I'm pretty sure, Photoshop or not, everyone else has started to get the ball rolling, mark my words, Mac OS X will be the default OS in September.

[Zadian]

Originally posted by curmi:
<STRONG>

Actually I'd say NO to the text editor. Still doesn't support type/creator codes, and therefore doesn't follow Apple's own guidelines.</STRONG>

What about BBEdit light? That's a perfect basic text editor. The best in OS 9 and 10.

[Antenor]

Regarding spreadsheets: Besides the AppleWorks spreadsheet there's Mariner from Marinersoftware (Carbon app which can be downloaded from www.marinersoft.com) and not to forget Mesa3 from P & L Systems (Cocoa app which can be downloaded from www.plsys.com). Both are fully functional MacOS X spreadsheet applications which rival Excel.

Regarding games don't forget Airburst, Bushfire, GLTron, TuxRacer, FAKK2 and Quake3!

Cheers,

Antenor

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Antenor ]

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Antenor ]

[madra [again!]]

[sigh!]

why don't they ever read what you've said before replying?

[JLL]

Originally posted by Milio:
<STRONG>By presenting the "clock", Steve presented OS X as being unfinished until 12:00. He said it is the transition timeline, but presented 6:00 as the release of 10.1 which is not a transition milestone, but a development one.

That means that at 12:00 we will see a "finished" OS X. By saying that 10.1 is only halfway finished, they have said that 10.0 was known to be unfinished. Let me repeat, they are selling for full-price a known, unfinished OS.</STRONG>

Perhaps you should watch that keynote again.

The 12 month transition period is the time it takes before all major apps is out for Mac OS X.

Mac OS X will never be finished - no software is ever finished.