[erictheb]

I've got a 15" AlBook (and a 12" iBook G4) that both seem to have the same "problem." On the AlBook, if I add up the HD (80 GB) used up by the four folders in my root and then compare it to what the computer thinks has been used, I get two very different results.

HD: 72 GB (2.7 GB available), as per Get Info and bottom of Finder windows

Apps: 4 GB
Library: 5 GB
System: 1 GB
Users: 33 GB
Total: ~43 GB

In fact, after cloning my HD with Carbon Copy Cloner, the cloned volume is at 48 GB used, 27 GB available, which with invisible files and such, matches the folder-by-folder calc...

Anybody know what's going on? Virtual memory getting our of hand?

Thanks

Eric

[Cold Warrior]

what does Disk Utility say?
That's probably more accurate.

[erictheb]

Disk Utility says the same thing: 1.2 GB free for the main HD and 27 GB free for the cloned FW volume. With the iBook, the same thing happened (and was reported by Disk Utility: about 10-15 GB more available on the cloned volume than the original.

[CharlesS]

This is because the four folders at the root of the drive do not represent everything on your drive. Not even close. OS X has many invisible folders at the root of the drive. It's not like OS 9 was, where the invisible stuff was basically the Desktop file, some FBC indexes, and other stuff of negligible size. In OS X, the invisible files can take up multiple GBs in some cases.

Of course, Apple could have simply put usr, bin, sbin, and private inside /System and put symlinks at the root of the drive. However, they have decided to just hide things instead. There are a few people on here who think this is great and dandy and want them to hide /System as well.

If you want to see what's actually taking up the space on your drive, you need to either use du -sh in the Terminal or something like WhatSize.

[erictheb]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

This is because the four folders at the root of the drive do not represent everything on your drive. Not even close. OS X has many invisible folders at the root of the drive. It's not like OS 9 was, where the invisible stuff was basically the Desktop file, some FBC indexes, and other stuff of negligible size. In OS X, the invisible files can take up multiple GBs in some cases.

If you want to see what's actually taking up the space on your drive, you need to either use du -sh in the Terminal or something like WhatSize.

I can appreciate the hidden folders, but going to the WhatSize site on VersionTracker (someone else had suggested it as well), there was a post from someone with a similar problem. It ended up being a 25 GB hidden "back-up" file. One that doesn't show up on my partioned back-up drive. Don't know if it's the OS or if Carbon Copy Cloner left it behind, but having 25 GB files hanging around unseen (and not showing up when cloned), doesn't make life easy. Used TinkerTool to show invisible files, saw the hidden volume, deleted it, and now have my space back.

One additional question for you, as you seem to know your stuff. Due to my Mac telling me I had zero KB free this morning and not opening apps, I deleted some stuff to get space back. Things like MS Office X (using 2004 now), printer drivers I don't need, and receipts. I'm afraid I may have f*cked up doing that. After emptying my Trash with the hidden back-up, there was still stuff in the Trash. Emptied it again, but during the process, the Finder quit. Couldn't relaunch it. Disk Utility couldn't verify permissions since there "are no packages." ( *Was* able to verify the disk...no problems). When deleting the receipts, I noticed that they were all packages. Do I need to drag them back from a back-up volume? I just rebooted in Target mode to another machine so that I can access my main HD files.

Thanks for any help.

Eric

[CharlesS]

Disk Utility uses the receipts, because they contain the information that says what the original permissions of the files in the OS X installation were. So if you delete them, you lose the ability to do Repair Permissions. I think that Software Update may use the Receipts folder as well to determine what needs to be installed.

You can get the receipts back from another disk, but that disk would have to have had the same exact .pkg packages installed on it in order for the resulting Receipts folder to accurately represent the state of your disk. For this reason, it's best just not to delete them.

[erictheb]

Well, I found that in FW Target mode, Disk Utility permissions are not an option; just checking the disk. Also, trying to boot off my clone doesn't work as the password won't go. And booting off my internal HD leaves the rotating grey wheel going forever under the grey apple. Seems the Finder or something very fundamental is corrupted (oh, and I was so happy and proud when I found the hidden nasty back-up volume). Actually, did the same thing with the iBook I'm using now and no probs, so thought about what could be different, and receipts were the only thing. Copied the receipts back over from a five day old back-up (probably only the most recent security update missing), but no luck. What files does the Mac need at the rotating grey wheel stage? I gets past the "I found a system folder stage." Does the fact that I see a grey folder with a "?" for a few seconds prior to an old school happy Mac folder mean anything? Startup Disk Pref Pane on the iBook thinks that the faulty HD has a valid system folder (it lets me choose it).

Thanks

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by erictheb

What files does the Mac need at the rotating grey wheel stage? I gets past the "I found a system folder stage."

Seriously? It needs a lot of files at that stage. The only way to even have a remote chance of figuring out what is going on would be to start in verbose mode (command-V at boot time) and see where it hangs. If it were me, though, I'd probably just do an Archive and Install of the OS.

[erictheb]

Didn't mean to sound dumb, but I can't think of what could have been deleted. Thought maybe there was a FInder file that was needed or something and that's why the Finder pooped out on me. I think I will go with your archive and install advice.

Thanks

[Tsilou B.]

A fantastic application for people who want to know where all the drive space has gone is Disk Inventory X from:

http://www.derlien.com/

It will show you a "treemap" of you drive where you can immediately see which large files and/or folders take up the space. The calculation of the map will take some time, though.

[erictheb]

After trying to figure out the "whys?," I went ahead and reinstalled. Got everything back up again, except Mail has issues. When it loads, it looks fine, but then when selecting specific messages, it starts sorting strangely (i.e., clicking on message A on the list changes the text underneath to message B). Then, no messages show up in any mailboxes.

Also, this last time, before it crapped out, the Inbox only showed the messages for two of the three accounts; the third acct messages are there under Inbox/Acct 3, but not in Inbox view.

And it doesn't quit properly. It makes the icon in the menubar blue, but it stays that way. I need to Force Quit to get rid of it.

I've tried deleting ~Lib/Mail and ~Lib/Prefs/com.apple.mail.plist, but to no avail. Is there a specific file that keeps track of messages and where they are?

Thanks

Eric

[erictheb]

OK...this is getting ugly. While typing the last reply (about Mail problems), I decided to empty the trash (which seemed to have about 50 MB of stuff in it). However, when the process started, there were 50,000 files. This included the seems-to-be-gone hidden back-up that was causing the HD space to be lost at the beginning of this thread. During the process, it kept telling me that idisk was locked, and various system level files were to be deleted. I assumed they were vestiges from the old back-up. This may be what happened last time, I think. Anyway, near the end of the trash emptying, Finder quit (the there is still stuff in the trash). I think I may be back in "archive and install" mode, but wanted to get this message off before restarting, as I may not be able to access the HD until a reinstall is done.

I guess the question is: if the theoretically deleted hidden back-up system is gone (and the space is back), why would it seemingly be in the trash still?

[CharlesS]

Have you tried running DiskWarrior on the hard drive?

Also, have you tried making a new user and seeing if the Finder is still flaky under that user?

[CharlesS]

   

[Detrius]

Originally Posted by erictheb

I can appreciate the hidden folders, but going to the WhatSize site on VersionTracker (someone else had suggested it as well), there was a post from someone with a similar problem. It ended up being a 25 GB hidden "back-up" file. One that doesn't show up on my partioned back-up drive. Don't know if it's the OS or if Carbon Copy Cloner left it behind, but having 25 GB files hanging around unseen (and not showing up when cloned), doesn't make life easy. Used TinkerTool to show invisible files, saw the hidden volume, deleted it, and now have my space back.

One additional question for you, as you seem to know your stuff. Due to my Mac telling me I had zero KB free this morning and not opening apps, I deleted some stuff to get space back. Things like MS Office X (using 2004 now), printer drivers I don't need, and receipts. I'm afraid I may have f*cked up doing that. After emptying my Trash with the hidden back-up, there was still stuff in the Trash. Emptied it again, but during the process, the Finder quit. Couldn't relaunch it. Disk Utility couldn't verify permissions since there "are no packages." ( *Was* able to verify the disk...no problems). When deleting the receipts, I noticed that they were all packages. Do I need to drag them back from a back-up volume? I just rebooted in Target mode to another machine so that I can access my main HD files.

Thanks for any help.

Eric

I'm not entirely sure which backup program was the culprit, but I had a user a year or so ago that ran out of hard drive space. Somehow, his backup program got confused. The backup volume wasn't mounted, but the program still copied everything to /Volumes/BackupVolume/, and he ran out of space. This happened to the same guy twice, and it was his backup software getting confused.

As far as the receipts, yes you can't repair permissions without them. They contain the record of what the permissions should have been. You should either restore from a backup or reinstall if you ever want to repair permissions.