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UnixMac · Oct 6, 2005, 07:13 PM

Seems like in the prior OS X's we got updates more frequently... we're still on X.4.2.. and I don't know about you guys, but it still seems kinda buggy..

And what's with Sherlock? I crashes more often than not.. tried to repair permissions, etc.. no luck.

Anyway, don't mind my bitching.

SpaceMonkey · Oct 6, 2005, 07:37 PM

Yup. OS X is more mature than it was a few years ago (remember, it took until 10.2 for many people to consider it a "real" non-beta OS). Slower development pace is to be expected.

No problems with 10.4.2 here, but I'm a pretty casual user.

Chuckit · Oct 6, 2005, 07:40 PM

What seems buggy about 10.4.2 to you?

wataru · Oct 6, 2005, 07:40 PM

rsync

SMacTech · Oct 6, 2005, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

What seems buggy about 10.4.2 to you?

I would think it is maybe one of the 500 or so that 10.4.3 is going to fix. Actually, Apple has been on quite a fast pace with update releases on 10.4 This is because of the many changes in the OS and as a result, many bugs.

UnixMac · Oct 6, 2005, 08:54 PM

I find it VERY buggy.. Slow.. It actually seems to have slowed down my G5 quite a bit, and my G4 is almost unacceptable with regards to disk access. I don't know how to better explain it... Also, Sherlock has been totally useless, Safari crashes more than ever, Microsoft's media player is crashing a lot now.. I though my system might be unstable, but it's happening on both computers.

Anyway, I wonder if they're not devoting a lot to the Intel technology optimizations that will be needed by years end, and that's taking more of their time. I wonder if we're just going to get his with a 10.5 with the Intel Macs, and 10.4 will arrest well before it matures.

Oneota · Oct 6, 2005, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

What seems buggy about 10.4.2 to you?

Heh..well, I'm a sysadmin for a 1,000+ workstation environment...how much time ya got?

UnixMac · Oct 6, 2005, 09:09 PM

looks like I'm not alone in what I'm seeing... makes me feel better, for a while I though maybe I had hardware/disk problems..

JLL · Oct 7, 2005, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Oneota

Heh..well, I'm a sysadmin for a 1,000+ workstation environment...how much time ya got?

And you deploy a major release so soon after it's released?

Gee4orce · Oct 7, 2005, 03:45 AM

I sit at my Mac 10 hours a day, and I've found Tiger to be extremely stable and reliable. My only beef is with iPhoto crashing a lot, but Safari has been excellent for me....

YMMV

JLL · Oct 7, 2005, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

I find it VERY buggy.. Slow.. It actually seems to have slowed down my G5 quite a bit, and my G4 is almost unacceptable with regards to disk access. I don't know how to better explain it... Also, Sherlock has been totally useless, Safari crashes more than ever, Microsoft's media player is crashing a lot now.. I though my system might be unstable, but it's happening on both computers.

Have your tried clean installs? Another user? Did you upgrade or install? Do you use third party stuff?

I have none of the problems you mention on either of my Macs.

Originally Posted by UnixMac

Also, Sherlock has been totally useless

Hasn't it always?

analogika · Oct 7, 2005, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

I find it VERY buggy.. Slow.. It actually seems to have slowed down my G5 quite a bit, and my G4 is almost unacceptable with regards to disk access. I don't know how to better explain it...

If you're using file-sharing programs liek aMule or BitTorrent, make sure to EXCLUDE their temporary download directories from Spotlight, else the machine will continuously keep re-indexing, slowing down disk access IMMENSELY.

Eriamjh · Oct 7, 2005, 06:07 AM

I'm still using 10.3.9. I love it. Rock solid stable. I don't need any of the features that Tiger offers and my hardware doesn't fully support Core Image so I didn't bother upgrading. I'll upgrade next year when I buy a new PM or iMac (or a PB!). Until then....

Maflynn · Oct 7, 2005, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

I find it VERY buggy.. Slow.. It actually seems to have slowed down my G5 quite a bit,
...
Anyway, I wonder if they're not devoting a lot to the Intel technology optimizations that will be needed by years end, and that's taking more of their time. I wonder if we're just going to get his with a 10.5 with the Intel Macs, and 10.4 will arrest well before it matures.

Do find tiger slow and Panther was OK? To be honest, I've been pleased with it. My needs are quite modest though and I really don't push my G5 to its limits.

I think you hit the nail on the head with development resources. While I think they still have a team dedicated to the next update Apple's focus is on the intel platform and so they are spending the majority of money and man power on that.

Mike

JLL · Oct 7, 2005, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

I think you hit the nail on the head with development resources. While I think they still have a team dedicated to the next update Apple's focus is on the intel platform and so they are spending the majority of money and man power on that.

They are on the verge of releasing the biggest point upgrade ever and they are focusing on that.

Furthermore I think they are much more focused on 10.5 than 10.4 for Intel which is more or less finished according to dev notes.

Maflynn · Oct 7, 2005, 09:03 AM

That's basically what I was saying. Apple is dedicating the majority of its resources on the intel platform. I didn't mentioned that they are dedicating their resources for the intel platform for Tiger.

Hardware and software teams at apple are working to ensure a timely and smooth migration to a new platform.

chris v · Oct 7, 2005, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

And what's with Sherlock?

It appears to have been abandoned in favor of widgets. I wish they'd never bothered with the new Sherlock at all. I liked Watson, now they're both dead.

olePigeon · Oct 7, 2005, 11:43 AM

I'm on a 1.67 PowerBook with Tiger, and I'm pleased as punch. We also have Tiger on our Dual G5 XServer at my other work and on the sinlge 1.8 G5 Art Sever. Tiger is very fast.

So if you're having that much trouble, there's something sereiously wrong with either your install or some component on your computer.

k2director · Oct 7, 2005, 11:53 AM

Tiger seems plenty fast to me, and stable. My only complaint is that its .Mac synching is buggy. I've had a few Mail Rules that refuse to synch to my multiple computers, and also my POwerBook sometimes refuses to synch with iDisk when it wakes from sleep. These are documented bugs, and they've been there since Tiger shipped.

Grrr · Oct 7, 2005, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by SMacTech

I would think it is maybe one of the 500 or so that 10.4.3 is going to fix.

Myth.
Come on, 10.4.2 may well have some bugs in it. But it doesn't have anything like 500. That's just some BS you bought from the rumour sites you read. And even if it did have 500, one point update is not going to fix them all.
The 10.4.2 update supposedly had hundreds of bug fixes in it too. Yet actually, it contained substantially less. It will be just the same for 10.4.3

Moving on..
As some other folk mentioned, OS X is quite mature these days, and simply doesn't need such regular updates, as we got used to before.
And lets not forget that Apple are also putting in a lot more effort than before, into OS X for macintels these days.
I think both these reasons easily explains the apparent lack of OS X updates these days.

CaptainHaddock · Oct 7, 2005, 12:10 PM

500 bugs isn't such a stretch, that's what Think Secret puts it at. http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0510briefly.html

Any system as vast as OS X will have thousands of bugs. Most are minor or insignificant and may never be discovered. Even most of those 500 that are being fixed in 10.4.3 are obscure errors, arising only in such-and-such application when the user does something unexpected. I've filed a few very obscure bug reports myself, and most of them are being looked at or have been fixed.

UnixMac · Oct 7, 2005, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

It appears to have been abandoned in favor of widgets. I wish they'd never bothered with the new Sherlock at all. I liked Watson, now they're both dead.

makes sense... but these widgets are also buggy.. especially my favorite language translator..

Anyway.. Apple, while very flawed, is still the best computer/os on the market... but I think their "edge" over windows for me is eroding with these quirky behaviors that remind me of my windows 98 days.

We'll not quite that bad, but still..

UnixMac · Oct 7, 2005, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

IMy only beef is with iPhoto crashing a lot
YMMV

I noticed that too! I tried to move the library to my second drive, thinking the multi-threading (if that's what it's called) would speed it up a bit, and its the same... slow, and crashes a lot... I mean a lot!

I may try a clean re-install.. Hate the hassle though!

clarkgoble · Oct 9, 2005, 12:09 AM

The biggest issues with 10.4 are with Safari, which still occasionally has inexplicable (and long) spinning wheels. It also has lots of Javascript bugs. But it's definitely progressing and you can run the latest version of Webkit if you want to risk it. Typically it's fast. And the upgrade from 10.3.8 -> 10.4 was huge in terms of speed. (Yeah, I know a fast Safari came out for 10.3.9)

Beyond that I don't see bugs. Odd interface choices that make me wonder what's going on at Apple, yes. But fewer and fewer bugs. The rumors on the latest update coming say it squashes a lot of remaining bugs. But I certainly don't have many problems. Just UI complaints between 10.3 and 10.4.

Big Mac · Oct 9, 2005, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by UnixMac

makes sense... but these widgets are also buggy.. especially my favorite language translator..

Anyway.. Apple, while very flawed, is still the best computer/os on the market... but I think their "edge" over windows for me is eroding with these quirky behaviors that remind me of my windows 98 days.

We'll not quite that bad, but still..

I wish you'd explain in a more detailed manner the various quirks you're referring to, because I just don't see it. 10.4 is the least quirky, most polished and feature rich release of the OS. Either you're greatly exaggerating or there's something terribly wrong with your systems.

SMacTech · Oct 9, 2005, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Myth.
Come on, 10.4.2 may well have some bugs in it. But it doesn't have anything like 500. That's just some BS you bought from the rumour sites you read. And even if it did have 500, one point update is not going to fix them all.
The 10.4.2 update supposedly had hundreds of bug fixes in it too. Yet actually, it contained substantially less. It will be just the same for 10.4.3

Moving on..
As some other folk mentioned, OS X is quite mature these days, and simply doesn't need such regular updates, as we got used to before.
And lets not forget that Apple are also putting in a lot more effort than before, into OS X for macintels these days.
I think both these reasons easily explains the apparent lack of OS X updates these days.

It's not some BS I brought with me, as you mention. Are you a developer with access to these builds ? Do you have proof they don't exist? I have proof they do. 10.4.3 will have that many bug fixes. Some of them are quite trivial, but bugs none-the-less.

The are many bugs that I have to work around programming in Carbon, the things that work in 10.3 than don't work in 10.2 or 10.4, it's been difficult.

Grrr · Oct 9, 2005, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by SMacTech

Do you have proof they don't exist? I have proof they do.

Well? Out with it then..

Until I see this proof, then I still call BS. As no point update previously has contained anything even close to 500 bug fixes, despite what the rumour sites say.
As I say, even IF there was 500 bugs. 1 point update wont fix them all.

SMacTech · Oct 9, 2005, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Well? Out with it then..

Until I see this proof, then I still call BS. As no point update previously has contained anything even close to 500 bug fixes, despite what the rumour sites say.
As I say, even IF there was 500 bugs. 1 point update wont fix them all.

Whatever. I don't like being labelled a ********ter. Shame on me for saying anything to begin with.

I am sure in true Apple style, they will fix many bugs, address many in a half-baked manner and introduce even more bugs.

If you are a developer, go read the bug reports. Or sign up to be one for free and go see for yourself.

wtmcgee · Oct 9, 2005, 10:25 AM

I think much of the 'slow down' is due to a few factors, most of which have already been mentioned: Apple is focusing on Mac OS for the intel arch, coupled with a focus on QA with point releases surely is slowing down the development cycle of patches and updates.

However, 10.4 is fairly mature, and most of the bugs are small cosmetic errors, not show-stoppers. I'm not saying none exist - just scour the fourms and i'm sure you'll find a dozen ormore massive problems by a small percentage. But overall, the OS has matured so the need for monthly point releases has waned a bit. 10.4.2 has fixed any noticable bugs I've experienced.

Catfish_Man · Oct 9, 2005, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Myth.
Come on, 10.4.2 may well have some bugs in it. But it doesn't have anything like 500. That's just some BS you bought from the rumour sites you read.

You're kidding, right? Safari/Webkit alone probably has at least 500 open bug reports. Adium has 560 ( http://trac.adiumx.com/report/1 ), and it's a heckuvalot smaller than OSX.

brokenjago · Oct 9, 2005, 03:47 PM

According to ThinkSecret and AppleInsider, the next PowerBook and PowerMac upgrades rely on 10.4.3, so I imagine the patch will be out within the next week.

Jacob · Oct 9, 2005, 04:29 PM

With me and my friend (he just got a mini). It's permission issues. And crashes with programs. Constant. There seems to be no way to improve it. And no matter how much we emphasize that to Apple, they never concentrate on fixing those issues that need the attention. Sad...

Detrius · Oct 10, 2005, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Myth.
Come on, 10.4.2 may well have some bugs in it. But it doesn't have anything like 500. That's just some BS you bought from the rumour sites you read. And even if it did have 500, one point update is not going to fix them all.
The 10.4.2 update supposedly had hundreds of bug fixes in it too. Yet actually, it contained substantially less. It will be just the same for 10.4.3.

Being in software development myself, I have a hard time believing it's *only* 500. There were 100 revisions to our program between beta 2 and beta 3. Sometimes, one revision fixes a half dozen bugs. Sometimes, it takes several revisions to fix one bug. The point is that this is one relatively small program that has three developers working one it, and we've easily fixed 50+ bugs in a month. You also have to keep in mind that as developers, we see bugs that normal users don't, as we intentionally try to break make the program crash. We intentionally try to lie to the program and tell it to open things it shouldn't, for example. It's not always as cut and dry as you think it is, where every bug fixed is a bug that users see. Sometimes, major bugs fixes get pushed back to a later release because other bugs are higher priorities.

There are probably an order of magnitude or more than 500 bugs in 10.4.2. Does Apple know what they all are? Of course not. Will Apple eventually fix them all? Absolutely not. This is a complex system designed by imperfect humans, and being fixed by imperfect humans. We can expect great things, but not even NASA is perfect when human lives are on the line due to design errors.

Big Mac · Oct 10, 2005, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Jacob

With me and my friend (he just got a mini). It's permission issues. And crashes with programs. Constant. There seems to be no way to improve it. And no matter how much we emphasize that to Apple, they never concentrate on fixing those issues that need the attention. Sad...

Why do you naively assume that your anecdotal experiences are representative of the wider Mac population? My Macs run constantly with few reboots, yet I have no permissions issues and all of my applications run essentially problem free. Apple doesn't listen to you because it cannot afford to care about the tiny minority who seem to be extraordinarily unlucky with their Macs.

JLL · Oct 10, 2005, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Myth.
Come on, 10.4.2 may well have some bugs in it. But it doesn't have anything like 500. That's just some BS you bought from the rumour sites you read.

The current build includes 546 published bug fixes.

m a d r a · Oct 10, 2005, 07:36 AM

anyone else finding that the "open with" function in get info windows isn't working properly any more when you try to apply it to multiple files?

i've found this a couple of times recently. if i just change the "open with" on one file, it seems to work fine, but if i use the "change all" button then open with reverts to "<none>"

i've done the usual permissions repairing shenanigans, but no joy

PS - while i'm on the subject, isn't the wording of the "change all" confirmation dialogue really stupid? if i have a file called "somefile.extension" and apply a "change all" to open ".extension" files in "someapp.app" the confirmation dialogue asks "are you sure you want to change all your someapp documents to open with the application someapp?" surely a more sensible wording would be "are you sure you want to change all your '.extension' documents to open with the application someapp?"

SMacTech · Oct 10, 2005, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by JLL

The current build includes 546 published bug fixes.

Thanks for the reinforcement of my BS

Next, you will be asked to prove it!

SMacTech · Oct 10, 2005, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by m a d r a

anyone else finding that the "open with" function in get info windows isn't working properly any more when you try to apply it to multiple files?

Yes, I have seen this occur on my PowerMac, but not on my PowerBook. Launch Services has several bugs including trying to launch an older version of an application when installing a newer one, if it isn't replacing the older one.

I have seen, and many of my customers have reported, that 10.4 will launch an older version in the trash and produce some obscure error that makes no sense.

JLL · Oct 10, 2005, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by SMacTech

Thanks for the reinforcement of my BS

Next, you will be asked to prove it!

That would be a pretty long post

CatOne · Oct 10, 2005, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Grrr

Well? Out with it then..

Until I see this proof, then I still call BS. As no point update previously has contained anything even close to 500 bug fixes, despite what the rumour sites say.
As I say, even IF there was 500 bugs. 1 point update wont fix them all.

?

Talk out of your ass much?

This stuff is readily verifiable to folks who have access to it. They're not supposed to leak information (it's part of the ADC NDA), but if they were to say "hey, the "fixed in this update list" has 577 bugs list, why would you call BS?

As for whether 500 bugs could be fixed in 1 update... why not? There are hundreds of applications or executables in the OS. And so if you average 1 bug fix per executable (not to mention you could have 50 in Safari alone), it's pretty easy to see you can get there.

And that won't fix all the bugs. Not even close. But then again, at one point, Windows had something like 50,000 open bugs. Which is not all *that* bad for something so complicated, especially when many of those bugs aren't all that serious (i.e. don't cause crashes).

I submit you don't have a background in software, and don't know much about what you speak. You should speak less and learn more.

SMacTech · Oct 10, 2005, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by CatOne

?
This stuff is readily verifiable to folks who have access to it. They're not supposed to leak information (it's part of the ADC NDA),.

So true. The sole reason I couldn't backup my BS with links.

The Apple police do peruse popular forums. They even sent me an email about a post on Ars. I felt like big brother was watching me.

That said, I know 10.4.3 will be welcomed by many. It has fixed 3 outstanding bugs [carbon based-data browser functions] for me and I won't say which ones.