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gradient · Nov 21, 2005, 02:45 AM

I'm not 100% sure whether this should be posted under the OSX or the Applications forum but my issue has occured with several apps so it seems like it may be an OS problem.....

The problem is seemingly random and I can't give any consistent sequence of events that leads to it but every now and then (maybe twice a day) an application will refuse to be hidden. What I mean is that when I press CMD-H to hide the app, which I do frequently, I get the little 'hotkey not recognized' sound and nothing happens. If I go to the app drop-down menu, the 'Hide...' option is grayed out and unavailable.

This isn't a critical big deal but it's annoying and I'm at a loss as to why the OS would be inconsistent with a basic function like that. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.

GENERAL_SMILEY · Nov 21, 2005, 04:07 AM

Something similar happened to me after running early builds of the Front Row hack - couldn't minimise from the keyboard either.

Can't really remember if it was exactly the same, so can't promise this is the reason. Sorry.

chabig · Nov 21, 2005, 07:29 AM

What apps can't be hidden. Be specific please.

TETENAL · Nov 21, 2005, 08:16 AM

When all other apps are hidden, you can't hide the frontmost application any more and you get the system beep sound when you press ⌘H since the Hide command is disabled.

tooki · Nov 21, 2005, 03:34 PM

That's exactly it. At least one application must be visible at any given time, so when all the rest are already hidden, it won't let you hide the last one.

tooki

cla · Nov 21, 2005, 04:06 PM

Actually, I'm having the same problem, and it's not related to what other apps are visible/invisible.
The minimize button of the window simply gets grayed out.

Applications: InDesign I know for sure, but I've definately seen it occuring in other apps.
Restarting the application makes the problem go away.

TETENAL · Nov 21, 2005, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by cla

The minimize button of the window simply gets grayed out.

Did you put a hacked FrontRow in your computer?

tomrock · Nov 21, 2005, 04:31 PM

I'll bet this is a case where one app has to be visible, but keep in mind that Cmd+H doesn't always work -- it doesn't work in Photoshop, for example.

If the menu is greyed, it's a different story, of course.

tooki · Nov 21, 2005, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by cla

Actually, I'm having the same problem, and it's not related to what other apps are visible/invisible.
The minimize button of the window simply gets grayed out.

Um, hiding an application and minimizing a window are entirely separate things.

tooki

orbital~debris · Nov 22, 2005, 12:34 PM

Regardless, I've had the same problem with the amber button being unusable. It has been greyed out on all windows, whilst the red and green buttons remain usable.

However, I never got to the bottom of this issue, as I did a clean install when 10.4.3 became available…

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

That's exactly it. At least one application must be visible at any given time, so when all the rest are already hidden, it won't let you hide the last one.

tooki

That's actually not true. Right now I'm running three apps, Firefox, Adium and Mail and can successfully hide all three simultanesouly (not minimze, hide). My problem as been seemingly random and has happed in Firefox and Mail for sure, possibly others that I'm forgetting off the top of my head. The 'hide' option in the menu drop-down gets grayed out and the apple-H shortcut doesn't work.

I'm running 10.4.3 though - not sure if what you're saying was the case in earlier versions.

TETENAL · Nov 22, 2005, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by gradient

That's actually not true. Right now I'm running three apps, Firefox, Adium and Mail and can successfully hide all three simultanesouly (not minimze, hide).

Right now you are running four applications. You can successfully hide Firefox, Adium and Mail, but then you can't hide the fourth.

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 04:48 PM

True - sort of. I can hide open finder windows too.

TETENAL · Nov 22, 2005, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by gradient

True - sort of. I can hide open finder windows too.

No, you can't. At least one application must be visible, so if you have hidden the first three you can't hide the Finder any more.

piot · Nov 22, 2005, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by gradient

True - sort of. I can hide open finder windows too.

I think that is what you are misunderstanding.
You don't need to have a finder window to "hide' the finder.

When you select "hide others" you are also hiding the finder .... and the "hide (frontmost app) menu will be greyed out.
Just click your desktop ..... and finder will be back in play.

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 05:06 PM

I do understand that... I only said 'open finder windows' because I thought it would be clearer, but I guess i picked the wrong terminology. Regardless...

I think you may actually be misunderstanding the problem.

Normally (like right now) I can hit apple-h repeatedly and hide all open applications so that I get a clear view of the desktop. However, sometimes I get an application (firefox, mail and a least one other that I'm forgetting) that have refused to be hidden by the keyboard shortcut and just give me the little 'blip' sound. Then, when I go to the app drop-down menu, the 'Hide' option is greyed out. Often enough, if I switch to another app, then back to the one that was giving me a problem, the issue goes away.

I hope that is clear enough - I'm not a guru by any means but I do have a solid working understanding of the OS.

Thanks.

TETENAL · Nov 22, 2005, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by gradient

I think you may actually be misunderstanding the problem.

I understand the issue very well.

When the Hide command is grayed out then all other applications are already hidden, so you can't hide this last application any more, because at least one application must be visible. Of course switching to another application and back enables the Hide command again since then two applications are visible again. I say it again in the hope that you will finally understand:

You can hide all applications but one. If only one application is visible, you can't hide it any more.

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 05:26 PM

ok I do see where my confusion is coming in here possibly....

If I understand you corretctlly you are saying that, hypothetically, when I have no apps other then the finder open and one window visible, when I hide the finder, it may hide the windows but the finder itself is still 'unhidden' technically?

If so I still finding inconsistency because, as I described, more times then not I can hide the finder and subsequently my remaining apps with no problem. However sometimes I cannot, even in exactly the same sequence. I should mention specifically (I thought I inferred it but again maybe i'm not being clear enough) that this has happened with multiple apps visible. In one specific situation, I had mail and firefox open at the same time - I closed the one firefox window and could see Mail still visible behind the firefox menubar (so I'm positive that firefox was not the last app). I tried to hid Firefox at that point with no success until I clicked on mail, then went back to firefox. At that point I could hide Firefox without issue.

Thanks again - hopefully I'm not being a dunce.

tooki · Nov 22, 2005, 05:36 PM

Even when the Finder is hidden, the desktop will not disappear. So if you hide a Finder with no open windows, you won't see any difference. The point is that you can not hide all open programs: one of them HAS TO BE not hidden at any one time.

Here's a trick for everyone, though: to switch to another application and simultaneously hide the current program, hold down the Option key when you click in the Dock on the program you are switching to. If all applications but one are already hidden, it'll hide the program you are leaving and unhide the program you option-click.

tooki

tooki · Nov 22, 2005, 05:39 PM

And here's another thing, just for information: if all applications but the front one are hidden, and you quit the front application, the Finder will automatically unhide.

tooki

aehaas · Nov 22, 2005, 05:44 PM

2 powerbooks and 2 desktops: QuarkXpress cannot be hidden after going from 10.4.2 to 10.4.3..

aehaas

tooki · Nov 22, 2005, 05:44 PM

Gradient, here's a tip that might help you understand what's going on.

This terminal command sets the Dock to gray out applications that are hidden:

Code:
 defaults write com.apple.dock showhidden -bool true

Follow it by

Code:
killall Dock

to restart the Dock to enable the change.

Now, in the Dock, open applications have the little triangle under them, and with this trick, hidden applications are grayed out. Now you can see that if every open application except the frontmost one is hidden, it won't let you hide the last. One open application must not be hidden. This trick will help you see when applications are hidden, even if they have no windows to hide (or, in the case of the Finder, show the desktop even when hidden).

tooki

P.S. If you're running Tiger, Dashboard might be in your Dock. Since it's always hidden except when activated, it doesn't count as a normal application, so just ignore Dashboard.

piot · Nov 22, 2005, 05:58 PM

Luv this thread. It's like slowing down to see a car crash!

Originally Posted by gradient

I closed the one firefox window and could see Mail still visible behind the firefox menubar (so I'm positive that firefox was not the last app). I tried to hid Firefox at that point with no success until I clicked on mail, then went back to firefox. At that point I could hide Firefox without issue.
:

I can't recreate this. You must have missed/or added another action (?)

I want to know why you think this is a problem?

Want to see the desktop ? F11
Want to hide all but front app? alt-cmd-H
Want to hide just the front app? cmd-H

What else do you need?

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

Gradient, here's a tip that might help you understand what's going on.

This terminal command sets the Dock to gray out applications that are hidden:

Code:
 defaults write com.apple.dock showhidden -bool true

Follow it by

Code:
killall Dock

to restart the Dock to enable the change.

wow. LOL.

I entered these commands and now I understand what TETENAL was trying to tell me, because my hiding function now behaves much differently then it did before - the way TETENAL described. Now I cannot hide the last open app, which is VERY annoying lol. I know that ineveitably someone is going to chime in saying that I'm crazy but..... I'll take that risk.... If I re-enter the previous command, reversing 'true' for 'false' will that undo the changes I made?

Thanks.

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by piot

I want to know why you think this is a problem?

As I said, it is only a problem because it is inconsistent, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. I personally don't like using expose to clear to the desktop - I'm on a 12" iBook and losing 1/4" of desktop space along each side of my screen makes a difference to me.

*Edit - 100th Post! Otherwise known as 100 Problems and counting!!*

piot · Nov 22, 2005, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by gradient

As I said, it is only a problem because it is inconsistent, ......................................I'm on a 12" iBook and losing 1/4" of desktop space along each side of my screen makes a difference to me.

Sorry. As I said earlier I can't replicate the problem. To me the behaviour IS consistent. (?)
The edges of windows visible when pressing F11 should not cover any files on the desktop (or maybe they do.... I haven't got an iBook!)

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 06:42 PM

Well I went ahead and undid the showhidden command but now my system behaves NORMALLY!! AAAAHHHH!!!

I'm terribly dissapointed, although I'm sure most others here will give me a simple 'tough luck', because I've lost a feature that I use often - is there anyone else that has heard of this or know a way to implement it? I don't know if its possible that some 3rd party app that I installed along the way made this change without my knowledge or something.......

tooki · Nov 22, 2005, 07:01 PM

"Behaves normally"? It behaved normally before. I'm not sure if this expression of "aaaaahhhh!" is one of anger or joy.

The commands I showed change how the Dock displays hidden applications, nothing more. It did not change the hiding behavior in any way at all.

I understand that you are terribly confused, but a half dozen people have explained to you repeatedly how it works: YOU CANNOT HIDE ALL OPEN APPLICATIONS. It is impossible, it won't let you do it, and there's no way to do it. One application MUST be unhidden at all times.

What I think might be tripping you up is that the Finder can be hidden or unhidden with no windows open, and the icons on the desktop will not go away, whether hidden or not. So when you think that you've hidden all applications, what you really have active is the Finder with no windows.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, the active (=frontmost) application is the one with its name in the menu bar. There must always be an application's name in the menu bar.

I suggest you run the command I showed you above so that you can learn what it means when an application is hidden. If you do what I said in my post above, you can learn which applications are already hidden.

tooki

gradient · Nov 22, 2005, 07:19 PM

Sorry Tooki, but despite what you say I am not stupid as you all of a sudden seem to be making me out to be. I accept, now, that my system was previously behaving strangely and counter to the norm but your assumption that I am confused and don't understand how to navigate my system is bordering on an insult. I have told you exactly what the symptoms of my problem were - I could hide all applications up to the finder and then hide finder windows (leaving Finder techincally visible but the windows hidden), and SOMETIMES an application that was not the last would refuse to be hidden. I'll let you worry about how this is possible, if you wish, but I'm afraid you're going to have to take my word for it. Immediately after I ran those commands, my system behaves in a completely different manner - I am not confused. My system now behaves as you have described, but it did not before.

I'm hoping that some here will be able to look at this objectively and suggest a reason as to how this issue may have come up, I'm not to interested in being told that what I've experienced is impossible because clearly it isn't.

Timo · Nov 22, 2005, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by aehaas

2 powerbooks and 2 desktops: QuarkXpress cannot be hidden after going from 10.4.2 to 10.4.3..

aehaas

I've had this problem since 10.4.1, I think.

aehaas · Nov 23, 2005, 05:44 PM

Timo, you may be right. I did not get Tiger until it was 10.4.2 so it may have been that way since 10.4.0.

aehaas

P · Nov 24, 2005, 03:41 PM

Perhaps I'm incredibly stupid, but can't you just open an app you never use, say Textedit, and leave it open with no windows open? That way you can hide all the apps that you use and never bother with TextEdit (which doesn't have any windows open anyway).

leperkuhn · Nov 28, 2005, 10:49 AM

happens to me with iTunes all the time. I have to quit it an relaunch.

nerd · Nov 28, 2005, 01:57 PM

I've also had this happen every once in a while. Last time was with Safari. I will have a few apps visible, when I click on Safari and do Apple H, nothing. Quitting and relaunching Safari brings back hiding in that app. It's only happened to me a couple times over the months, can't really reproduce it.

hwdor · Nov 28, 2005, 06:52 PM

gradient,

You aren't crazy - I have seen the same behavior. For me it is almost always the mail app. Drives me nuts. I like to leave mail running (but hidden - not minimized) and there are times it will not hide - no matter what else is running or how often I switch to another app and back.

It seems like the issue is less frequent in Tiger (I only upgraded recently). Based on some of the replies here, the next time it happens I'll be sure and double-double check that other apps are running.