[mhuie]

Anyone have any info if Leopard is going to have a completely new finder, and any details? It is completely redesigned or just more spotlight integration? I always hear stuff about no brushed metal, but I could care less for petty GUI changes.

The Finder is the one thing that has me going back to my PC time after time.

[MattJeff]

Sweet your from seattle! haha my fav city.....what exactly dont you like about the finder? i love it compared to a PC.

[Tomchu]

Well, for starters ... I'd like the ability to move selected objects into their parent directory, without resorting to opening two windows, positioning them appropriately, and then doing a drag operation.

Hell, cutting would be nice in general. And yes, I've heard the debate, and it's stupid. It's Apple apologists on one side arguing against Edit --> Cut, and people who actually understand how to use it on the other.

[voodoo]

For starters I'd like a consistently designed Finder, spacial Finder and just FTFF for heaven's sake.

V

[TETENAL]

You can see the new Finder in the Time Machine Demo. It features Time Machine integration, but besides from that it seems to be more or less unchanged.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

You can see the new Finder in the Time Machine Demo. It features Time Machine integration, but besides from that it seems to be more or less unchanged.

It's not the *new* Finder. Come on now...they're keeping the real *new* Finder under wraps.

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Well, for starters ... I'd like the ability to move selected objects into their parent directory, without resorting to opening two windows, positioning them appropriately, and then doing a drag operation.

Use Column view to do that.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Well, for starters ... I'd like the ability to move selected objects into their parent directory, without resorting to opening two windows, positioning them appropriately, and then doing a drag operation.

I can do that just fine in column view.

[kcmac]

I think if most people used the column view in Finder, there would be less call to FTFF.

[voodoo]

I never use column view. It limits so many other things, while simplifying some. The annoyance to benefit ratio is very disadvantageous to column view.

V

[Gavin]

Column view needs a better way to preview - I hate it when the whole thing lurches in the middle of a double click. And there should be a way to sort in c view.

Each folder should remember my width settings!!!

Tabs

Virtual filesystem - think browsable nested smart folders, automatically generated by spotlight.

Better network browsing. Current way blows. I shouldn't have to go through the full connect rigamarole to open a new share on a server I'm already connected to.

An option to turn on some pro tools. filename filtering, allow me to more easily browse the UNIX areas if I need to, batch rename (applescript menu is clunky, seriously)

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Well, for starters ... I'd like the ability to move selected objects into their parent directory, without resorting to opening two windows, positioning them appropriately, and then doing a drag operation.

Given that you don't have to do that, why don't you try learning how to use the Finder instead?

Alternative ways of doing this:

1. Switch to column view. Drag and drop file. Switch back to icon or list view (which is what I assume you are using).

2. Use the sidebar - put your commonly used folders in the sidebar. Drag file to either the folder you want or to a folder at a level higher than the one you want to drop in, then use spring-loaded folders to tunnel down to the folder you want.

3. If you stick to the two window approach, use Exposé instead of repositioning. That is, open your two windows but don't bother repositioning because you don't have to. Initiate the drag of your file. While dragging activate Exposé and select the second window to bring it to the front. Drop file. This is easier if you activate hot corners for using Exposé as you can drag your file to the corner to activate it.

[Artanis]

Like it has been stated above I would like the "cut" ability also. I would like to use my keyboard "delete" key to delete stuff, apple+backspace is stupid from my point of view.
Also, "enter" should enter a file, not rename it.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

Like it has been stated above I would like the "cut" ability also.

Are you a recent Windows-switcher?

I would like to use my keyboard "delete" key to delete stuff, apple+backspace is stupid from my point of view.

I think it's quite good that there are two keys required to trash files. With just the delete key it would be too easy to accidently trash files. And it would be awkward for notebook users.

Also, "enter" should enter a file, not rename it.

What does "entering a file" even mean?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Are you a recent Windows-switcher?

I am both, OSX and Windows user for years now. Don't get me wrong, I like Macs more than PCs, but I don't think that everything that Macs have is perfect. I think that apple deserves to be considered the best computer manufacturer and I wish they would drop the cheap trend&brand features like the one I mentioned, and also the crap "I'm a PC I'm a Mac" comercials. If I recommend apple to everyone I do it because I used most of their computers and they are good, not because what is said in those commercials. The stuff I stated I think is very pertinent, and has been discussed alot in other comunities also. We are talking here about features like cut which in OSX takes twice the time because this feature is missing.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

I think it's quite good that there are two keys required to trash files. With just the delete key it would be too easy to accidently trash files. And it would be awkward for notebook users.

This "delete" thing I really don't understand it. Let me tell u how I see it: it is like someone has a car with a start engine button, but that button doesn't start the engine, it puts the car in reverse mode.
Don't tell me that "apple+backspace" was created because of the notebook users, I can't believe that. Now that u mentioned "notebook from apple" you reminded me of another stupid thing about the apple notebooks: the touchpad has a missing function, the direct click feature which all the other notebook computers on the market have. A thing that not all the notebooks on the market have (I think none have, but I am note sure) is the 2fingers scroll feature which is really really great in apple notebooks.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

What does "entering a file" even mean?

"Entering a file" means that when u browse through finder only with your keyboard and you want to enter a file it should be logically correct to open that file with the "enter" key.

[jasong]

Somehow I don't think adding these "features" you are talking about will be the things that make OS X the "perfect" OS.

Deleting a file should be a two key command. You should not be allowed to destroy something by accident, such as hitting the delete key while on your way to ejecting a disk (the eject/F12 key is immediately above delete - at least on the PB G4). I know, I know, YOU never hit the wrong key EVER, your mad typing skillz are the bomb, but I would feel comfortable betting my mortgage that most people hit the wrong key from time to time and accidentally deleting files is the kind of thing that makes the OS less perfect than it currently is. Hitting cmd-delete takes no more time and provides an important measure of safety to the system. Sorry guys, this is the Mac way, and it is highly unlikely that will change. Get a utility to let you remap the key. Oh and how is cmd-delete like a car with a button labeled start engine that actually puts the car in reverse? Seriously, I don't get this at all. Cmd-delete is like a car that doesn't let you shift into reverse while driving 65 mph. Maybe you want to see what happens, but it's a fair bet most people don't like trashing their transmission while reaching for the radio.

As for using Enter to open a file, again, I don't find myself wishing I had the time back that it takes me to hit cmd-O vs Enter, mainly because there is no time difference, but at least this request doesn't ask for the Mac to become harder to use, just different. It's interesting that most of the people who want this come from a Windows or mostly Windows environment. I wish they spoke english in Egypt so it would be easier for me to travel there, I guess sometimes when you go someplace new you have to learn new ways of doing things and not just complain that english is better.

Conclusion: Yes, OS X is a slow, backwards, PITA if you try to use it like Windows. There really are only three remedies. 1. Use Windows, 2. Hack the heck out of the system to make it work the way you want, 3. Use it like Mac OS X. Personally I find #3 to be the best choice. YMMV.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

you reminded me of another stupid thing about the apple notebooks: the touchpad has a missing function, the direct click feature which all the other notebook computers on the market have.

What is 'direct click'? If you mean tapping, that has been part of the iBook/PowerBook for ages. And of course the MB and MBP have always had that.

"Entering a file" means that when u browse through finder only with your keyboard and you want to enter a file it should be logically correct to open that file with the "enter" key.

Well, in English you don't 'enter' a file, you open it. And therefore open (cmd-o) rather than enter opens a file. You 'enter' the file's name. Hence, the enter button to select the file name.

I think there are many things Apple can improve on. But, and I honestly mean no offense here, I think your criticism is ill-based and sounds more like stuff people accustomed to Windows say due to their habits rather than justified rational. That said, I do agree that the delete key should delete items in the Finder although I'm ok with cmd-backspace too.

[Artanis]

) thank you for your feedback guys, I think you see my posts in a very subjective manner. Ok, if I came from Windows I am wrong u say.
The right word was yes, tapping in english Simon, no offense, I am sorry that I didn't use this word, I speak english like someone that is not english native. However, I tell you for sure that if I tap the touchpad on my 15" G4 Powerbook nothing happens. Is this a feature that can be activated from somewhere??? :O

Jason, it doesn't bother me the exact key combination, just that believe or not I find the position and distance between "apple+backspace" inapropiate. Onestly, I don't want something like "Shift+del"

Like I said I like Macs and I will always use OSX on any Mac. What I said was my perception of the stuff I don't like about apple. I can post a huge list of stuff that I really like about Macs vs PCs and Windows.

Just as a remark:
As you probably know, the downloads of bootcamp beta are over 1 milion, and this means that there are alot of people that use Windows on Intel based Macs. Do you think that Tiger for PC will be so spread across PC users?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

However, I tell you for sure that if I tap the touchpad on my 15" G4 Powerbook nothing happens.

/Applications/System Preferences > Keyboard & Mouse > Trackpad Gestures > Clicking

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

As you probably know, the downloads of bootcamp beta are over 1 milion, and this means that there are alot of people that use Windows on Intel based Macs.

Obviously those 1 million prefer Macs. Otherwise they'd be using XP on a PC.

Do you think that Tiger for PC will be so spread across PC users?

Tiger for PC? No such thing. But there have been many Win->Mac converts, yes. And Apple just noted the day before yesterday that in the last quarter more Windows users bought Macs at Apple stores than Mac users. I think they're onto something there.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Artanis, I think you'll be disappointed to know that the 'cut' and 'delete' feature will never be implemented. It's not because Apple is being stupid. It's because they believe that such features may cause problems to many users. And I agree with Apple. Sorry for raining on your parade.

Can we move on to another subject because this subject is a dead end.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Simon 

What is 'direct click'? If you mean tapping, that has been part of the iBook/PowerBook for ages. And of course the MB and MBP have always had that.

If he means what I think, it is when the trackpad clicks for you even though you haven't pushed any buttons at all... and personally this has to be the absolute dumbest, idiotic braindead feature ever to have graced a computer (yes it will select the don't save option or the empty trash option for you when you didn't want it to, just because you happened to leave your pointer hovering over it...). If anyone knows how to turn it off I would mightily appreciate it (and yes, I have looked in the sensible control panels and no, there isn't any option there to do it).

FWIW, wrt to the delete key, you aren't deleting files, you are moving them to the trash. Two very different things again.

Also, command-O to open files selected in the Finder. This is a system wide default for anything... command-O to open.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

The right word was yes, tapping in english Simon, no offense, I am sorry that I didn't use this word, I speak english like someone that is not english native. However, I tell you for sure that if I tap the touchpad on my 15" G4 Powerbook nothing happens. Is this a feature that can be activated from somewhere??? :O

They've had this for a long time. It's in the Keyboard & Mouse preferences.

Originally Posted by Artanis 

Jason, it doesn't bother me the exact key combination, just that believe or not I find the position and distance between "apple+backspace" inapropiate.

I'm not sure I understand. There are three keys between the right apple key and the delete key. That's only one further than apple-Q — less stretching than typing an uppercase G.

Originally Posted by Artanis 

Just as a remark:
As you probably know, the downloads of bootcamp beta are over 1 milion, and this means that there are alot of people that use Windows on Intel based Macs. Do you think that Tiger for PC will be so spread across PC users?

Apple isn't releasing Tiger for generic PCs. The Mac OS is for Macs only. You can't run it on other hardware without a lot of hacking and the inevitability of Apple breaking your install.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by JKT 

FWIW, wrt to the delete key, you aren't deleting files, you are moving them to the trash. Two very different things again.

Right you are. I even dislike the Delete button in the Finder toolbar because it implies delete instead of move to trash (but to label a button move to trash would take up too much room, so I understand why it's called what it's called). Concerning the OP's statement, doesn't Windows prompt the user to confirm whether to move to recycle bin when the delete key is pressed? That's still a two key or key-click operation - slower than command-delete.

[Tomchu]

Originally Posted by JKT 

Given that you don't have to do that, why don't you try learning how to use the Finder instead?

Alternative ways of doing this:

1. Switch to column view. Drag and drop file. Switch back to icon or list view (which is what I assume you are using).

2. Use the sidebar - put your commonly used folders in the sidebar. Drag file to either the folder you want or to a folder at a level higher than the one you want to drop in, then use spring-loaded folders to tunnel down to the folder you want.

3. If you stick to the two window approach, use Exposé instead of repositioning. That is, open your two windows but don't bother repositioning because you don't have to. Initiate the drag of your file. While dragging activate Exposé and select the second window to bring it to the front. Drop file. This is easier if you activate hot corners for using Exposé as you can drag your file to the corner to activate it.

1. I shouldn't have to switch views just so that I can move a file into its parent folder. That's backwards.

2. That's what people in the computer industry term a "band-aid fix". It's inconvenient.

3. This works, but it requires having the source and destination windows open. Once again, a band-aid fix, when Apple really should just provide a "cut" option.

Apple should just FTFF. No apologies.

[JKT]

I was offering you a solution to your current woes - you were using a dumb way to do something when there are already easier ways to do it.

FWIW, Apple should not offer a "cut" option, they should offer a "move" option. There's enough sloppiness in the OS as it is at the moment, but I wouldn't want them to get even worse with it.

Btw, I'm actually interested to know how Windows "Finder" makes it any easier to navigate back a level. From my experience of my work PC, navigating windows in Windows is always a case of having to spawn numerous instances just to be able to get anywhere with any ease. I certainly don't see how it is any easier to go back a level in the default Windows view than it is in the Finder.

[himself]

Apple-O should not be changed to "Enter" for opening files. The great thing about the Mac OS is that the interface is consistent across all applications, at least for the most basic commands. So, you don't have to remember specific commands for a particular application. Apple-O does the same thing, system wide.

I'm a bit ambivalent about Apple-Delete, but I tend to lean toward the current implementation. The thing about using "key commands" versus single keys (especially for destructive tasks) is that it ensures that each action you make is deliberate, and it greatly reduces the number of mistakes you'll make interacting with the your Mac which, by far, is the biggest drain on efficiency.

The major issue I have with Windows is the lack of consistency, where one key command will perform drastically different tasks in different apps/windows explorer. I hate having to remember what key command performs a task for a particular app, whether I need to use the control or alt key for that command, etc., etc... I lose a massive amount of time in the confusion.

I'd much rather have interface consistency than interface "convenience," or having something work a certain way because I'm used to it. Consistency does more for productivity and efficiency (versus convenience) than many people realize.

[kick52]

Originally Posted by Artanis 

Like it has been stated above I would like the "cut" ability also. I would like to use my keyboard "delete" key to delete stuff, apple+backspace is stupid from my point of view.
Also, "enter" should enter a file, not rename it.

i think it would be good if you could drag a file to the 'back' button, and have it temporarily open a new window, like spring-loading, allowing you to drop it on there.

[besson3c]

What do you guys think? I see some wisdom in modeling the Finder after Safari since users are used to using a web browser. However, I think making the Finder just like a web browser would be pretty retarded ala Windows.

Still, would features like bookmarks and the back button and an address bar be smart to transfer?

[TETENAL]

The Finder has bookmarks (the sidebar) and a back button. There is no address bar, but there is a path menu (optionally in the toolbar or in the window title bar) and there is a "Go To Folder"-menu where you can enter paths if you want to.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The Finder has bookmarks (the sidebar) and a back button. There is no address bar, but there is a path menu (optionally in the toolbar or in the window title bar) and there is a "Go To Folder"-menu where you can enter paths if you want to.

I know all this. This wasn't my point.

[memory-minus]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Apple really should just provide a "cut" option.

Apple will never provide a "cut" option for files because THAT is backwards. Say a relatively inexperienced user "cuts" a file from their desktop with the intention of "pasting" it into a folder elsewhere on their hard drive. Say this user then becomes distracted by an incoming email, IM or any of the many distractions the may be present in a multitasking system. For my argument's sake, let's say the user receives a URL in an IM window, clicks it and finds the page so interesting that they copy the URL to paste into an email to a friend. The file is now gone forever. You cannot "undo" a "copy."

And don't try to argue with me that the file should go to the trash in that case or undo should be enabled for "copy." Apple is all about consistency. Do text clipping clipboard contents get put in the trash when you copy or cut over them? How many undos should we allow for the invisible clipboard?

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Apple should just FTFF. No apologies.

I've seen you do nothing but complain... how do you propose they "fix" it?

[kick52]

Originally Posted by memory-minus 

The file is now gone forever. You cannot "undo" a "copy."

unless apple put in a nifty utility which would allow you to cut/copy more than one item. they could have an item in the dock which when you drag something there, it opens out a drawer, or when you cut something you open the drawer out and drag it to wherever

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by kick52 

unless apple put in a nifty utility which would allow you to cut/copy more than one item. they could have an item in the dock which when you drag something there, it opens out a drawer, or when you cut something you open the drawer out and drag it to wherever

Which is what NeXTstep had, which is a different (and IMO better) paradigm than cut-and-paste.

[Gavin]

I agree with the move to parent folder thing. Here's how I think it should work.

The folder icon in the finder's title should be active. You can drop files on it and they move into that folder. Might be a little weird in column view, but useful in icon and list views.

I'd also like to drag a window's title-bar icon into the finder to move or copy it into that location. Want to "Save as..." to the desktop? Just drag the file's title-bar icon there.
OK! that does sort of work from Preview (can't send it to the desktop though). but not Textedit, etc. it should be universal.

[Gavin]

I think a Cut and Paste-like mechanism for moving a file could be done without being confusing or trouble prone.

You wouldn't Cut and Paste a file. You would Pick Up and Move it, or some similar but unique term. Don't freak about the terminology, Pick Up could be any term to signify choosing the file to be moved: Prepare, Tag, Flag, Designate, Select, whatever. Different keys would be used to keep this separate from cut and paste.

Your file does not go into the a clipboard where it can be lost, and -nothing happens- to it until you Put It Down.

The new 3D compositing goodies could be used to signify to the user that the file is still really in it's original location until you commit.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Gavin 

I think a Cut and Paste-like mechanism for moving a file could be done without being confusing or trouble prone.

You wouldn't Cut and Paste a file. You would Pick Up and Move it, or some similar but unique term. Don't freak about the terminology, Pick Up could be any term to signify choosing the file to be moved: Prepare, Tag, Flag, Designate, Select, whatever. Different keys would be used to keep this separate from cut and paste.

Your file does not go into the a clipboard where it can be lost, and -nothing happens- to it until you Put It Down.

The new 3D compositing goodies could be used to signify to the user that the file is still really in it's original location until you commit.

While what you propose is a good idea...file shuffling is going extinct. I don't think it's worth the trouble to implement something like this when we're moving towards a non-spatial organisation that revolves around metadata searches instead of physical locations.

Cutting and pasting files or picking up and dropping files just won't make sense in a few years when all files will simply be plopped onto a storage device without any regards to 'hierarchies' or 'folders'...grouping of files will be completely virtual and dynamique. Instead of grouping statically into folders, files will be grouped on-the-fly by criterias either offered by default in the OS or by criterias defined by the user.

The idea of moving files around 'for organizational purposes' is inefficient.

[Gavin]

On the other hand we were supposed to have flying cars two years ago.

Meanwhile there is still room for an improved tire jack.

Really though, while some hardcore types might use Pick and Flick ( or whatever ) I don't think most people, myself included, would ever use it. So you're right, it's not worth the effort.

They should put that work into my flying car.

[Tomchu]

Originally Posted by JKT 

Btw, I'm actually interested to know how Windows "Finder" makes it any easier to navigate back a level.

There's a little button in Explorer called "Up". It takes you to the parent folder.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

Originally Posted by memory-minus 

Apple will never provide a "cut" option for files because THAT is backwards. Say a relatively inexperienced user "cuts" a file from their desktop with the intention of "pasting" it into a folder elsewhere on their hard drive. Say this user then becomes distracted by an incoming email, IM or any of the many distractions the may be present in a multitasking system. For my argument's sake, let's say the user receives a URL in an IM window, clicks it and finds the page so interesting that they copy the URL to paste into an email to a friend. The file is now gone forever. You cannot "undo" a "copy."

And don't try to argue with me that the file should go to the trash in that case or undo should be enabled for "copy." Apple is all about consistency. Do text clipping clipboard contents get put in the trash when you copy or cut over them? How many undos should we allow for the invisible clipboard?

Clearly you've never used Windows. When you Cut a file in Explorer, *NOTHING* happens to the file until it is PASTED -- so your situation is simply a non-issue. Hell, even if one cuts a file, and then decides to cut another, the first is simply left alone.

[Simon]

Which is exactly why the cut-paste paradigm sucks for file management. It works differently (when you cut text it's always cut, there's no waiting till it gets pasted). However, by using the same words, you confuse people as to what it actually does. You might want this functionality, but the way MS implemented it is just plain stupid.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

There's a little button in Explorer called "Up". It takes you to the parent folder.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

Is an "Up" button really so much easier than a "Path" button?

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Clearly you've never used Windows. When you Cut a file in Explorer, *NOTHING* happens to the file until it is PASTED -- so your situation is simply a non-issue. Hell, even if one cuts a file, and then decides to cut another, the first is simply left alone.

Does the same thing happen when you cut text in Microsoft Word? If not, it's not the same function!

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by kick52 

unless apple put in a nifty utility which would allow you to cut/copy more than one item. they could have an item in the dock which when you drag something there, it opens out a drawer, or when you cut something you open the drawer out and drag it to wherever

Here you go:

http://homepage.mac.com/khsu/XShelf/XShelf.html

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

There's a little button in Explorer called "Up". It takes you to the parent folder.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

There's a little button in Fander called "Path". It takes you to any parent folder. And so does command-clicking the window title.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

[monkeybrain]

Indeed, Tetenal is right. Command-clicking the folder in the titlebar has worked like for what, 10 years or something? Certainly before OS 9 even. It works for the sudo-document icon too. And you can drag that icon as if it was a file. Quite handy sometimes.

[Tomchu]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

There's a little button in Fander called "Path". It takes you to any parent folder. And so does command-clicking the window title.

That wasn't hard, now was it?

Alright, so show me how one moves a file back into its parent folder. THAT IS THE KEY POINT I'M GETTING AT.

Oh, and I don't care whether the function is called "Cut", or "Move", or "Pick up", or whatever ... no need to get anal retentive about it. I just want a simple, single-window, no-view-changes-required method to move a freaking file back a folder.

In Windows it's click, CTRL-X, click Up, CTRL-V. In OS X, the only methods to do it involve work-arounds or band-aids.

Hell, I love my Macs, but you guys are sometimes such whiney little apologists that it just makes me want to cry.

[Curiosity]

Originally Posted by kick52 

unless apple put in a nifty utility which would allow you to cut/copy more than one item. they could have an item in the dock which when you drag something there, it opens out a drawer, or when you cut something you open the drawer out and drag it to wherever

You can copy more than one item now. Just select the items to copy, ctrl-click, and choose Copy from the menu. Navigate Finder to the destination and paste. It is too bad that there is not an equivalent provision for moving files, though.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Tomchu 

Alright, so show me how one moves a file back into its parent folder.

Open the two folders you are interested in. Drag. Drop. (Or, if you are using column view, skip the first step!)

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Hell, I love my Macs, but you guys are sometimes such whiney little apologists that it just makes me want to cry.

Don't you want answers or not? Your attitude suggests that you don't really want answers and just want to pick fights.

Fight me.

[cybergoober]

Edit: Never mind

[spauldingg]

Springloaded folders does this. just drag your file over the your home folder in the side bar and keep dragging it over folders til it is in the one you want. then drop it.