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Tommy Peters · Dec 20, 2006, 05:59 AM

Say, I purchase a Macbook Tiger this month and the dealer makes a verbal promise to install the original Leopard free of charge when launched next year. The Leopard deal is not figured in the Tiger invoice.

If Leopard from Update Manager costs 129.00 or even at a discount to dealers, would it be a commercial disadvantage for a dealer to make a licensed Leopard available free of charge or is there something I’m missing here?

To make the deal more plausible than probable, in essence I’m asking if there any way a dealer can offer a licensed Leopard free without incurring costs to himself.

galarneau · Dec 20, 2006, 06:09 AM

Nope, at least not legally.

moonmonkey · Dec 20, 2006, 06:30 AM

Lots will do this to make the sale, but its illegal and no different from you downloading it illegally.

OreoCookie · Dec 20, 2006, 06:34 AM

According to ThinkSecret, Leopard will not be ready for release in January. If you need a new computer now, don't wait until 10.5 is announced.

And yes, it's illegal to run 10.5 without having a proper licence -- which seems to be the intention of your dealer.

kmkkid · Dec 20, 2006, 09:46 AM

Did he offer to install a licensed copy, or just that he would install it for you free of charge, as in you buy leopard, and he'll install it for you?

Tommy Peters · Dec 20, 2006, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Did he offer to install a licensed copy, or just that he would install it for you free of charge, as in you buy leopard, and he'll install it for you?

He did not specifically mention 'licensed copy' but implied it - but he did specifically mention that the software and installation would be free of charge.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that for commercial advantage, Apple doesn't encrypt their OS to its respective machines making it possible - at least for Tiger - for unlicensed OSs to appear on other machines.

kmkkid · Dec 20, 2006, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tommy Peters

He did not specifically mention 'licensed copy' but implied it - but he did specifically mention that the software and installation would be free of charge.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that for commercial advantage, Apple doesn't encrypt their OS to its respective machines making it possible - at least for Tiger - for unlicensed OSs to appear on other machines.

There is no license key per copy/machine. So yes technically you can easily pirate the OS, which by the sounds of it your dealer is going to do for you, if that's in fact what he meant by his statements.

ghporter · Dec 20, 2006, 11:52 AM

Verbal agreements in this sort of situation are worth exactly the paper they're printed on. If it isn't in writing, don't trust it. Sales dudes tend to tell you what they think you want to hear, often without anything at all to back it up.

Millennium · Dec 20, 2006, 12:42 PM

The dealer can't do this (and isn't legally forced to by a verbal agreement, since there's no proof that the agreement was ever made in the first place).

Early versions of the System (which would later be called Mac OS) were in fact free. Dealers were outright encouraged to give copies to anyone who asked, as long as the person asking provided a floppy to put it on. Apple stopped this practice with System 7, though, and they've charged for the Mac OS (and, later, OSX) ever since.

frdmfghtr · Dec 20, 2006, 01:50 PM

Maybe the dealer's cost for Leopard is low enough that the loss from the cost of Leopard is less than the loss on the machine going unsold and marked down heavily later on.

Which scenario is better:

(1) Sell the machine now at a profit of $100, and eat the dealer cost for Leopard (say $50 for example) leaving a profit of $50

(2) Lose the sale now, the machine goes unsold, and later is sold as a discontinued model at a discount risking a loss on the deal.

Considering that the profit margins on computers are probably quite thin, (I've seen 5% or less), machines need to come and go pretty fast in order to make a profit; discounting discontinued models eats into the profit margin awfully fast.

Another thought:

To keep sales going through the holiday season and in the months leading to Leopard's release, Apple is authorizing free upgrades to Leopard for buyers after a certain date who would otherwise wait until after the holidays to buy when Leopard is released. MS did this with WinXP (I think, and aren't they doing it with Vista as well?) but made it publically known; maybe Apple is doing the same, but as a "seal the deal" option for dealers who would otherwise lose a sale.

If the dealer is offering a free upgrade to Leopard on release, get it in writing, stating that

(a) The installation will include the ORIGINAL installation discs and documentation, and
(b) it is a fully-licensed installation.

Just some points for discussion...

Brass · Dec 20, 2006, 06:19 PM

So long as you get the original disc for Leopard to keep for yourself as part of the deal, there is no problem. If he doesn't give you the disc, or if the disc is a copy, then he's being naughty.

FireWire · Dec 20, 2006, 06:26 PM

Just FYI, Dell is offering free upgrade to Vista once it comes out if you buy a computer now, so it doesn't sound too suspicious. They don't want to lose potential sales from people who would wait for the next OS to come out before they buy.

SSharon · Dec 20, 2006, 07:11 PM

It isn't worth the trouble to deal with this, and for the record verbal contracts are enforceable (or so my professor tells me).

jasong · Dec 20, 2006, 08:48 PM

Just because Dell and/or MS is offering free upgrades to Vista doesn't mean anything similar is going on with Apple.

Tell him you want it in writing, or better yet, tell us the name of the dealer so we can all benefit.

jmiddel · Dec 21, 2006, 08:09 PM

A verbal contract is only enforceable if it has been recorded (video, if audio only you would need voice print analysis to confirm the parties identities) or if it has been witnessed by objective parties, ie not either the seller or you. If not there is no record of the contract, meaning there is no contract. Just your word.

CatOne · Dec 22, 2006, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Brass

So long as you get the original disc for Leopard to keep for yourself as part of the deal, there is no problem. If he doesn't give you the disc, or if the disc is a copy, then he's being naughty.

Exactly.

CatOne · Dec 22, 2006, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

The dealer can't do this (and isn't legally forced to by a verbal agreement, since there's no proof that the agreement was ever made in the first place).

Early versions of the System (which would later be called Mac OS) were in fact free. Dealers were outright encouraged to give copies to anyone who asked, as long as the person asking provided a floppy to put it on. Apple stopped this practice with System 7, though, and they've charged for the Mac OS (and, later, OSX) ever since.

The dealer absolutely can do this if he wants to give a retail copy of Leopard at his expense. Assuming wholesale on the software is 1/2 retail (I don't know what it is, really), and that Leopard goes out at $129 or whatever like most copies... he's basically giving a $65 (plus labor) "perk."

From an accounting perspective this would actually be very ugly, but he's probably small enough (and not a public company) so he wouldn't really get burned by doing this (having a liability carried for 3-6 months and over a year crossing is probably pretty rough ;-)

Anyway he can't re-image with a "pirated" copy of the OS, but I can't see how legally he can't say "I'll basically install for you (at my expense for media and time) Leopard for you when it ships." It's a way to actually discount the product.

As far as verbal contracts -- they ARE enforceable... but it's difficult mainly because you run into a "he said/she said" thing... where's the proof? I'd want it in writing. Also that way he'd have to give a retail copy because if installing pirated software in return for a sale was documented, that would be enough to string 'im up :-)

brokenjago · Dec 23, 2006, 05:27 AM

Mac OS X Tiger Costs Fry's Electronics about $100.

We pay $1,407.33 for a black MacBook.

Assuming that this dealer gets the same deals as us (he probably pays more as we sell a TON of Macs and buy in volume,) he would be making a slight loss by offering to install a free, liscensed copy of Leopard at his expense.

romeosc · Dec 24, 2006, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by brokenjago

Mac OS X Tiger Costs Fry's Electronics about $100.

We pay $1,407.33 for a black MacBook.

Assuming that this dealer gets the same deals as us (he probably pays more as we sell a TON of Macs and buy in volume,) he would be making a slight loss by offering to install a free, liscensed copy of Leopard at his expense.

Maybe he going to "adopt You" and give you one of his five family pack copies! LOL