[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by mjankor 

I think I've done a decent job disproving it.

Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.

[MartiNZ]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Oh, I doubt that they were unused by the majority of Mac users... the hierarchical Dock menus were quite helpful in easing the transition for switchers, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.

Yeah but the start menu only goes one level deep anyway, and to completely inconsistent levels as windows works. It must be a real surprise to switchers that the applications folder really is just that, rather than a maze of more folders laden with junk and hard to find executables.

From my experience windows users invariably get around the shortcomings by having hundreds of items on the desktop. I don't know many that use windows explorer and to me even that pales vs. hierarchical menus, and is certainly a lot more messy.

[Wiskedjak]

Wow, I had no idea Apple did this to the dock. No way am I buying 10.5 until they fix this.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Oh, I doubt that they were unused by the majority of Mac users... the hierarchical Dock menus were quite helpful in easing the transition for switchers, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.

Windows, while being generally a flaming pile of ****, isn't entirely devoid of functionality. The Start menu and its 'All Programs' hierarchical menu sucked, not because hierarchical menus suck, but because it was easily cluttered by any application that decided to throw its icons in there, and not easily modified by the user.

Dock menus didn't have that problem, since they're just a reflection of however you organize the folder itself, which isn't difficult to do.

Seriously, how retarded does someone have to be in order to have usability difficulty with dock menus?

And Erik, I think the existence of thread, and the overall resounding opinion that Stacks are generally less useful than Dock menus, should be proof enough that the Dock menus should still exist for those who want to use them. After all, this thread is called "Stacks Usability" not "Stacks Suck" even though that seems to be the majority opinion.

[mjankor]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.

Hey dopey, you made the claim, it's up to you to prove it. Are you going to accept the test I proposed on page 5?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 

And Erik, I think the existence of thread, and the overall resounding opinion that Stacks are generally less useful than Dock menus, should be proof enough that the Dock menus should still exist for those who want to use them. After all, this thread is called "Stacks Usability" not "Stacks Suck" even though that seems to be the majority opinion.

Overall resounding opinion? I'm sorry. A very vocal minority is just that...vocal. And in the minority. Hierarchical menus for navigation is an inferior way of navigating, no matter how many people got stuck with it because they were used to it.

Yes, it sucks that a feature was removed with something of dubious value (not arguing that point), but think of it as a kick in the rear to become more efficient. Why not try out Spotlight? Or smart folders? Finder navigation with QuickLook and CoverFlow. All great navigational options

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by mjankor 

Hey dopey, you made the claim, it's up to you to prove it. Are you going to accept the test I proposed on page 5?

Your test is flawed, so no. And keep the name-calling to yourself if you ever expect a reply again. Thank you.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Why not try out Spotlight? Or smart folders? Finder navigation with QuickLook and CoverFlow. All great navigational options

I use Spotlight and Smart Folders to the extent that they are useful, which as I and others have pointed out in this thread, is certainly not in every situation. Spotlight is exceptionally useless when it comes to opening multiple files with the same name, again, already pointed out in this thread.

Smart Folders are powerful, and I really quite love them, but they aren't the solution for this problem. With Apple's changes, and things being so geared toward people who just don't know where the hell their files are, it's almost like I'm being penalized for keeping things in a structured order.

It's like they want me to just throw all my stuff in one directory that is so cluttered that the only way to find anything is to have the OS find it for me. I KNOW where all my stuff is, I can get to it in a split second with Dock menus, and without the need to open a Finder window, or type searches in Spotlight.

[mjankor]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Your test is flawed, so no. And keep the name-calling to yourself if you ever expect a reply again. Thank you.

Why is the revised test flawed?
And where are your links backing up your claims. The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to prove it for you.
You're the one who claims to be a usability expert.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.

Well, that sure convinced me.

[dggraphics]

Look at the last line.
Anyone know the proper defaults boolean to get this menu option to appear?

DockMenus.strings

TURN_HIDING_ON = "Turn Hiding On";
TURN_HIDING_OFF = "Turn Hiding Off";
TURN_MAG_ON = "Turn Magnification On";
TURN_MAG_OFF = "Turn Magnification Off";
POSITION_ON_SCREEN = "Position on Screen";
LEFT = "Left";
BOTTOM = "Bottom";
RIGHT = "Right";
MINIMIZE_USING = "Minimize Using";
GENIE_EFFECT = "Genie Effect";
SCALE_EFFECT = "Scale Effect";
DOCK_PREFS = "Dock Preferences…";
REMOVE_FROM_DOCK = "Remove from Dock";
OPEN_AT_LOGIN = "Open at Login";
SHOW_IN_FINDER = "Show in Finder";
OPEN_FILENAME = "Open “%@”";
OPEN = "Open";
SHOW_NAME = "Show %@";
MORE_WIDGETS = "More Widgets…";
DASHBOARD_PREFS = "Dashboard Preferences…";
SHOW_DASHBOARD = "Show Dashboard";
APPLICATION_NOT_RESPONDING = "Application Not Responding";
HIDE = "Hide";
HIDE_OTHERS = "Hide Others";
SHOW = "Show";
RELAUNCH = "Relaunch";
SORT_BY = "Sort by";
NAME = "Name";
DATE_ADDED = "Date Added";
DATE_MODIFIED = "Date Modified";
DATE_CREATED = "Date Created";
KIND = "Kind";
EJECT = "Eject";
RENAME_STACK = "Rename Stack";
RECENT_APPS = "Recent Applications";
RECENT_DOCS = "Recent Documents";
RECENT_SERVERS = "Recent Servers";
FAV_VOLS = "Favorite Volumes";
FAV_ITEMS = "Favorite Items";
KEEP_IN_DOCK = "Keep in Dock";
QUIT = "Quit";
FORCE_QUIT = "Force Quit";
EMPTY_TRASH = "Empty Trash";
SHOW_AS = "View as";
AUTOMATIC = "Automatic";
FAN = "Fan";
GRID = "Grid";
LIST = "List";

[mjankor]

Interesting

Not just "List" but also

"Rename Stack" <- that won't be applicable if stacks are always folders. Maybe the original stack design is still accessible somehow.
"Keep in Dock"
"Favourite Volumes" "Favourite Docs" and "Favourite Apps"
"More Widgets"

[vertigociel]

Interesting - I've been trying to enable List view through the com.apple.dock.plist, but haven't been able to manage it. I've found the number to change to get automatic, fan, and grid view (0 is auto, 1 is fan, 2 grid), but changing it to "3", alas, only puts it back in automatic sorting.

I also managed to get it to act as a folder - if you change the "tile-type" string to "folder-tile", it'll show up with its own icon in the dock, like so:

(That's the download stack on the far left, a stack full of servers next to it, and my Home directory as a folder to the right of that).

However, you can't browse the contents with a right-click of the folder, as in Tiger. Instead, you only get this:

It's sort of an advancement - you can have your folders easily distinguishable with custom icons again, and one click to open the finder window, but you can't easily browse it with a secondary click. So close!

[Geobunny]

I can get the menu item to appear quite easily, but I can't make it do anything at all.

Open /System/Library/CoreServices/DockInactive.app/Contents/Resources/DockMenus.plist in a text editor with root privileges and search for the text 6003. Now add another dict entry like this:

<dict>
<key>command</key>
<integer>6004</integer>
<key>name</key>
<string>LIST</string>
</dict>

All you're changing is 6003 to something else (in this case 6004) and GRID to LIST. Save the file and restart the Dock and you've got your new menu which only shows with the dock on the bottom of the screen. If we can find the right command number, we might be able to get it to work..

[vertigociel]

I can't find any command that seems to do the trick in the "folder" part of DockMenus.plist. It's possible Apple took the right-click navigation out completely. Do you have a Tiger version of DockMenus? The correct command has to be in there, the only question is if they changed/removed it in Leopard.

If they did, might not it be possible to build another one? I'm thinking something similar to how Applications can extend their dock menus - for example, you can access any pref panes from System Preferences' dockmenu when it's open. I don't have experience with native OS X programming, so I'm not sure how that works. It seems to me that that might be a possibility, though.

[Judge_Fire]

Personally, having found stacks unusable, I just stuck aliases of the 4 folders I had there on the Desktop instead. With Expose, getting to them fast and opening them in a window is surprisingly satisfying, so I'm having a great retro back-to-the-early-90s moment here.

Desktop > Dock!

Stacks are like a total combined mis-interpretation of both the 'piles' concept and tabbed windows from OS 9.

The 'piles' idea of browsable stacks became what are now 'events' in iPhoto and iMovie and I really love that- shame that the Finder stacks don't have that hovering browsability. As for the tabbed windows, well, the 10.4 Dock folders could have evolved to match their fluidity, it would've been a matter of just a few tweaks.

[tuqqer]

Originally Posted by mjankor 

Why is the revised test flawed?
And where are your links backing up your claims. The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to prove it for you.
You're the one who claims to be a usability expert.

Pretty sure you lost him and others with the name calling, bud.

[mjankor]

Originally Posted by tuqqer 

Pretty sure you lost him and others with the name calling, bud.

Yeah possibly. Doesn't really matter though as I doubt he was ever going to back up his claim. I very rarely call people names on forums, but occasionally some people push the right buttons.

I mean, ffs, if I came on here and posted something about, for example, Windows being more usable and efficient than the Mac OS I'd be dragged over hot coals. I'd deserve it too, unless I could validate my claim.

Frankly, in eric's case, I consider the name I called him to be a bit too lenient. Posturing about his job title while making claims he has no interest in proving is behaviour more commonly found under bridges.

At least I'm prepared to do the tests. All I need is his agreement that it's a reasonable test and shows a good example of a real life scenario. I believe I've set out and explained pretty clearly my reasoning for the test structure.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by tuqqer&n