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olePigeon · Apr 7, 2009, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

I do think that 10.5 is feature complete (for my needs), and that the optimizations coming in SL will be awesome. But i have to confess that ive always felt that optimizations should come in incremental updates as opposed to the major updates.

Cheers

Well, Snow Leopard may be more optimized, but Apple is also replacing the kernel with a 64-bit clean kernel. OpenCL and Grand Central should speed up things nicely. I think it's quite a bit more than just optimizations. It's like upgrading from 32-bit XP to 64-bit XP.

My work will be getting an educational ADC license so all us techs can get all the beta software. I can't wait to see what all the fuss is about.

OreoCookie · Apr 7, 2009, 03:59 AM

What Simon said. I'm not saying that OS X is insecure. But if you look at the recent security conferences where popular browsers, etc. were hacked, it turned out that it's much harder to use exploits to your advantage on Windows* because of improvements MS has included.

* That means even if there is a vulnerability, it is hard to use it to execute malicious code. One of these mechanisms is to use random memory addresses, for instance. Since some *BSDs include that feature, I find it likely that Apple may include this as well.

P · Apr 7, 2009, 05:25 AM

(ASLR)

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I thought Leopard already had this:

The feature is there, but it is not implemented for a lot of libs - most importantly, dyld. As long as it is not implemented for dyld, you can still use any feature dyld controls, and that includes loading any dynamic library and use features from it. Hopefully Apple will make all system libraries use ASLR in SL.

The same goes for some of the other Leopard features, like sandboxing: Add rules for everything and the kitchen sink to make the feature work, and we'll have a much more secure OS.

olePigeon · Apr 7, 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What Simon said. I'm not saying that OS X is insecure. But if you look at the recent security conferences where popular browsers, etc. were hacked, it turned out that it's much harder to use exploits to your advantage on Windows* because of improvements MS has included.

* That means even if there is a vulnerability, it is hard to use it to execute malicious code. One of these mechanisms is to use random memory addresses, for instance. Since some *BSDs include that feature, I find it likely that Apple may include this as well.

Is it Safari or the OS?

OreoCookie · Apr 7, 2009, 12:23 PM

Both: they are using a vulnerability in Safari to take over the OS. If memory address randomization and sandboxing (as well as other techniques) had been implemented consistently, then the vulnerabilities in Safari (or Firefox or any other app) would still be there, but they would not allow you to take over the system.

Apple has very good reason to wanting to implement this sooner than later: the iPhone (although, AFAIK, the iPhone is more effectively protected via sandboxes). And if the Mac gets more popular as a desktop platform, it may have critical mass to become an interesting target for hackers.

Hawkeye_a · Apr 7, 2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Well, Snow Leopard may be more optimized, but Apple is also replacing the kernel with a 64-bit clean kernel. OpenCL and Grand Central should speed up things nicely. I think it's quite a bit more than just optimizations. It's like upgrading from 32-bit XP to 64-bit XP.

My work will be getting an educational ADC license so all us techs can get all the beta software. I can't wait to see what all the fuss is about.

Oh i agree, from my standpoint (Software developer)...the changes/refinements/optimization that have been announced in SL are justification enough to buy the system.

But for the general public, it'll look like nothing has changed (superficially).... and when put up against the media barrage that Windows7 will get, it'll seem like the changes are almost insignificant.

From the tech angle, it's awesome. from the marketing perspective it might not be, especially when going up against windows7 (which is probably mostly superficial changes).

Chuckit · Apr 7, 2009, 01:42 PM

I'm not too worried about Microsoft beating Apple on marketing. Apple's marketing is brilliant and successful almost without exception while Microsoft's idea of a good commercial is not sticking their foot too far in their mouth.

Simon · Apr 7, 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm not too worried about Microsoft beating Apple on marketing. Apple's marketing is brilliant and successful almost without exception while Microsoft's idea of a good commercial is not sticking their foot too far in their mouth.

Seconded. MS is playing catch-up anyway. Even if Win 7 were to behave/look/feel/seem more like Leopard, they'll still be behind. As pretty much always.

But they're revamping the Zune this year. So all's fine in MS land.

olePigeon · Apr 7, 2009, 03:15 PM

Microsoft is also running those price comparison commercials.

Person Man · Apr 7, 2009, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

But for the general public, it'll look like nothing has changed (superficially).... and when put up against the media barrage that Windows7 will get, it'll seem like the changes are almost insignificant.

I disagree, especially if Apple overhauls the GUI as they are rumored to be doing. The difference between Windows 7 and Vista is very minor.

Salty · Apr 7, 2009, 05:25 PM

I'm sure Apple will have one wizz bang feature to make people notice it's a new OS. My guess is that changing the theme will allow them to keep it unwraps while still having developers play with features.

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 9, 2009, 04:42 PM

SL's big feature is going to be Blu-Ray support.
Good enough for me!

Spheric Harlot · Apr 9, 2009, 04:46 PM

OreoCookie · Apr 9, 2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Person Man

I disagree, especially if Apple overhauls the GUI as they are rumored to be doing. The difference between Windows 7 and Vista is very minor.

In terms of UI elements, perhaps, but things like UAC have been improved greatly (to the degree it might actually be usable and not just a nuisance).

SpaceMonkey · Apr 10, 2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

That must be one hell of a video she's shot.

turtle777 · Apr 10, 2009, 12:50 PM

Darn it Apple, I want to buy a new MB or MBP, but I'm not doing it until SL is out.

-t

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 10, 2009, 03:51 PM

Turtle, not to get too far off topic, you can honestly tell me that you like the new track pad on the MB and MBP?
If i can't use my left hand to click and my right hand to drag......i'll go insane!

I miss that that click button!

turtle777 · Apr 10, 2009, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

Turtle, not to get too far off topic, you can honestly tell me that you like the new track pad on the MB and MBP?

Uhm, no I CAN'T. Like I said, I'm INTENDING to buy a new MB or MBP, I don't own one yet.

-t

lpkmckenna · Apr 11, 2009, 02:03 AM

SL will be released in September.

There will be surprises, like annoying interface changes and some needed tweaking to older features. I'll bet the new Finder will get full-screen CoverFlow like iTunes, and TimeMachine will be more configurable, for instance.

But Apple is gonna market SL as fast.

SpaceMonkey · Apr 11, 2009, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

But Apple is gonna market SL as fast.

That's good. We haven't had a Snappy™ thread in a while.

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 11, 2009, 02:18 PM

I find coverflow to be a total waste. You find me someone who actually uses it on a daily basis and i'll find you a sunflower sucker.

B Gallagher · Apr 11, 2009, 03:32 PM

I use it occasionally for pictures, but usual I find myself going back to the Icon View with the Icons at 128x128. If I want to make anything bigger, then that's exactly what Quick Look is for.

cwkmacuser · Apr 11, 2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

Turtle, not to get too far off topic, you can honestly tell me that you like the new track pad on the MB and MBP?
If i can't use my left hand to click and my right hand to drag......i'll go insane!

I miss that that click button!

I'd miss the button too! One of my teachers in school uses a PowerBook G4 and she actually uses one hand for moving the trackpad and the other for the mouse button. I've never seen anyone else do it. I won't be upgrading my Apple laptop for several years. If I decide to get a second mac, I'd probably go with a desktop computer!

Big Mac · Apr 11, 2009, 10:46 PM

Can you just use a mouse with your MacBook if it bothers you that much?

I agree that the new button-less trackpad seems somewhat annoying, however.

cgc · Apr 12, 2009, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by B Gallagher

I use it occasionally for pictures, ... If I want to make anything bigger, then that's exactly what Quick Look is for.

Good point...CoverFlow is good for going through your porn collection to pick the keepers...

bballe336 · Apr 12, 2009, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Can you just use a mouse with your MacBook if it bothers you that much?

I agree that the new button-less trackpad seems somewhat annoying, however.

It still has a physical click, so you can still click and drag. I agree with you though, it seems like a pretty silly thing to complain about (especially since the new trackpad is functionally just as capable as the old one).

jogi · Apr 12, 2009, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by bballe336

It still has a physical click, so you can still click and drag. I agree with you though, it seems like a pretty silly thing to complain about (especially since the new trackpad is functionally just as capable as the old one).

I second this. The trackpad clicks and behaves just like the one button trackpad. It is even better in some ways as it's much bigger and you can click anywhere on the surface instead of just at the bottom part.

cwkmacuser · Apr 12, 2009, 01:57 PM

Yeah, but I prefer to sit with the computer on my lap and use the track pad (unless I am on the train or at a hotel, in which case I put it on a table) So, as a primary track pad user, I would not want to have a MacBook without a mouse button! Shall we go back to SL now?--NOT AN INSULT--Just wondering!

Spheric Harlot · Apr 12, 2009, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by cwkmacuser

Yeah, but I prefer to sit with the computer on my lap and use the track pad (unless I am on the train or at a hotel, in which case I put it on a table) So, as a primary track pad user, I would not want to have a MacBook without a mouse button!

There is absolutely NO difference in usage for what's been described here. Do EXACTLY what you would with your current trackpad, and you will never notice the change.

Cold Warrior · Apr 12, 2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

There is absolutely NO difference in usage for what's been described here. Do EXACTLY what you would with your current trackpad, and you will never notice the change.

This is good advice. I tell everyone I know who gets a new macbook to use a finger-thumb combo: finger(s) on the trackpad, thumb at the bottom of it for clicking. Or the two-handed technique where the second hand's finger is used for clicking the bottom. It's really no different from having a button, yet you get more space.

cwkmacuser · Apr 12, 2009, 05:03 PM

So you can do it with one hand?

CharlesS · Apr 12, 2009, 05:14 PM

I don't own one of the unibody machines, but I've played with them a few times and honestly, if I had my eyes closed, it'd be difficult for me to tell the difference. They work and feel exactly the same as the old one, and you can definitely use them with one hand, or two if you prefer.

I have to admit that I'm not sure what this discussion is doing in a Snow Leopard thread, though.

Cold Warrior · Apr 12, 2009, 06:39 PM

Fair enough. Let's all get this train back on track.

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 12, 2009, 10:59 PM

Sorry. My fault!

Back to Snowy L.
Here is something for you to think about.

SL is suppose to be a total re-write of the OS and apps to support 64bit and multiple-cores. As with any re-write, it will have bugs as it's new and untested. So since SL is being marketed as a more stable OS, doesn't that contradict itself and what it shall become? Inherently, it will have more problems than the current OS which has had 6 updates to dates.

That's like Microsoft saying that Windows 7 will be more stable. Nobody really knows until it's in the hands of the masses and of course, it will have lots of bugs as a totally new OS (although, Windows 7 is essentially Vista with updates).

Big Mac · Apr 13, 2009, 12:45 AM

Blargh.

Simon · Apr 13, 2009, 04:06 AM

SL is not a total rewrite. Never was announced to be that. Never will be that.

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 13, 2009, 08:03 AM

But nobody will deny that it is a major overhaul of the OS and therefore, it shall be buggy (as is all newly written software).

My point was......since we can't can't rely on SL to be super stable.....we really do need a new "feature" to blow our minds and take our thoughts away from the fact that our super stable OS is crashing/not functioning as it should.

New features distract the end user.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 13, 2009, 08:11 AM

Which part of "much faster" are you failing to take into account?

Simon · Apr 13, 2009, 08:35 AM

New GUI skin should be distraction enough.

Of course that won't work with people that frequent a board like this one, but it will do the trick for 95% of regular computer users.

Chuckit · Apr 13, 2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

But nobody will deny that it is a major overhaul of the OS and therefore, it shall be buggy (as is all newly written software).

It seems quite likely that Apple will debug Snow Leopard at some point before it's due to be released.

turtle777 · Apr 13, 2009, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It seems quite likely that Apple will debug Snow Leopard at some point before it's due to be released.

Although this hasn't been been completely the case in the past, it seems that the delay of SL could hint at Apple making sure that everything works as advertised.

-t

Spheric Harlot · Apr 13, 2009, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

New GUI skin should be distraction enough.

Of course that won't work with people that frequent a board like this one, but it will do the trick for 95% of regular computer users.

The kind of people who frequent a board like this will probably find *plenty* of good reasons for upgrading to Snow Leopard (see this thread).

Simon · Apr 13, 2009, 03:15 PM

Sure. Which is why they won't be needing the 'distraction' in the first place.

CharlesS · Apr 13, 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

But nobody will deny that it is a major overhaul of the OS and therefore, it shall be buggy (as is all newly written software).

The "overhaul" is in the area of bug fixes and performance improvements. If Apple does this release right, it should be the most stable of all .0 releases to date. If it's not stable, it will have been a failure as a release and will probably not sell.

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 13, 2009, 04:12 PM

How much more stable can they make it. I haven't had a system crash in over a year.

Chuckit · Apr 13, 2009, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

How much more stable can they make it. I haven't had a system crash in over a year.

We're better off than Tiger, but it's still possible to completely break your networking and require a complete restart before you can mount a server again.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 13, 2009, 05:26 PM

^ Happened to me just yesterday, in fact. Been very rare, but that was weird.

TheoCryst · Apr 13, 2009, 06:40 PM

Am I the only one that wonders what happened to vector independence and QuartzGL (née Quartz 2D Extreme)? Both were promised for Leopard, and both simply fell by the wayside, never to be heard from again. Here's hoping that they're both still in active development -- QuartzGL is still ridiculously buggy in Leopard, and resolution independence is nowhere to be found.

<speculation>
I wonder if the deprecation of QuickDraw and the virtual abandonment of HIToolbox is related to either of these? I've been told that Snow Leopard will be Carbon-free upon final release (recent builds have even sported a primarily-Cocoa Finder), though we still don't really know what that means exactly (deprecating HIToolbox? no new Carbon development? all built-in apps ported to Cocoa?). Maybe that's one of the big new features: resolution independence, but only for Cocoa applications. Anything still using QuickDraw (and even HIToolbox?) would simply be left in the lurch, including Office 2008 and Adobe CS4.
</speculation>

AppleGirl1990 · Apr 13, 2009, 07:20 PM

again. i'm in the mood for warm cookies...

TheoCryst · Apr 13, 2009, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by AppleGirl1990

again. i'm in the mood for warm cookies...

I've been known to have that effect on people...

...dammit, now I want cookies.