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Big Mac · Feb 1, 2009, 12:15 AM

Does anyone have any idea why OS X to this day doesn't have advanced SMART information like Windows has access to? Is Apple just lazy or what? If you're not familiar with what Windows offers, in Windows SMART utilities can read a whole host of information and statistics pertaining to hard drive health. In OS X, the only information you get is whether or not the drive is "Verified," "Failing" or "Not Supported." What's the deal?

Gavin · 04:16 AM

I guess they assume most people are not interested in their drive's Torque Amplification Count or the Read Channel Margin. The basic "good, bad, or try to fix it" is probably sufficient for 99.9% of users. ;-)

Here are a couple of links:

free command line tool:
http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

shareware GUI:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macos...rtutility.html

ghporter · Feb 1, 2009, 09:16 AM

Microsoft hasn't written a SMART app for Windows. It's all from either the open source community or the drive makers. On the other hand, Apple hasn't taken MS's lead and provided a SMART tool. Maybe they think "it just works" means that they don't need to?

seanc · Feb 1, 2009, 09:45 AM

There's a utility on Windows called Speedfan. I use this daily on multiple machines. It gives you access to fan speeds, temperatures and SMART statistics. Among giving you SMART statistics, there's also an online analysis option.

Just last week I fired it up on my Dads PC - he had moaned that it was running slowly and sure enough, it had tripped SMART on the spin-up value. Now I'm sure this would have just tripped SMART on OS X, but it wouldn't have told me what part.

I immediately put a new drive a USB caddy, booted from a live CD of G4L and ghosted the old drive to the new one - all while making sure not to turn off the PC. It may have been OK for a while, but you never know.

Problem sorted in 2 hours with no data loss.

besson3c · Feb 1, 2009, 11:53 AM

The other thing I like about the Smart tests is the multi-hour ("long") test to determine drive health. I usually run this when I get a new drive. If you can do advanced things like establish RAID arrays and stuff like that in Disk Utility, I don't see why this couldn't be extended to include thorough HD diagnostics for those that are knowledgeable enough to suspect a HD failure...

The "it just works" thing is bogus, a HD can fail on a cheap $50 SATA disk or a $1500 disk that belongs to a SAN - nothing to do with OS X or Apple's hardware quality.

Wiskedjak · Feb 1, 2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Maybe they think "it just works" means that they don't need to?

I think this is the root cause of most Apple bugs and system failures. Diagnostic tools suggest that things need to be diagnosed. And, of course, everyone knows that hard drives in Apple computers don't fail.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 1, 2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I think this is the root cause of most Apple bugs and system failures. Diagnostic tools suggest that things need to be diagnosed. And, of course, everyone knows that hard drives in Apple computers don't fail.

OTOH, tools being available means that all sorts of morons will mess around with them - witness OnyX and other system "tuners", or the perpetual "Repair Permissions"-runners.

mduell · Feb 1, 2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Does anyone have any idea why OS X to this day doesn't have advanced SMART information like Windows has access to?

Huh? OS X actually offers more S.M.A.R.T. information out of the box than Windows by giving you the verified/failing status. The disk drivers on both support third party utilities that will puke out and sometimes interpret the actual values.

Big Mac · Feb 1, 2009, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Huh? OS X actually offers more S.M.A.R.T. information out of the box than Windows by giving you the verified/failing status. The disk drivers on both support third party utilities that will puke out and sometimes interpret the actual values.

OS X may have better support out of the box, but I don't think it has better support in general. There's only one third party utility that I know of for S.M.A.R.T. status reporting in OS X, SMARTReporter, and it doesn't provide any more information than Disk Utility does. On Windows, there are a number of S.M.A.R.T. status utilities, and they provide a volume of information (as I said before) about disk health compared to the tertiary status types we get in OS X. If there is a third party utility that provides that kind of information on OS X, then that would be new to me. But if not, it seems like OS X's drivers don't provide the same level of raw S.M.A.R.T. information that Windows drivers provide.

besson3c · Feb 1, 2009, 02:41 PM

Big Mac: excluding smartmontools, of course...

Hal Itosis · Feb 1, 2009, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Does anyone have any idea why OS X to this day doesn't have advanced SMART information like Windows has access to? Is Apple just lazy or what? If you're not familiar with what Windows offers, in Windows SMART utilities can read a whole host of information and statistics pertaining to hard drive health. In OS X, the only information you get is whether or not the drive is "Verified," "Failing" or "Not Supported." What's the deal?

Might find something of interest on this page: "Smartmon, Seagate, and the Load Cycle Count"

Big Mac · Feb 1, 2009, 03:42 PM

smartmontools is what I was looking for. At least I know the functionality exists now. If someone wrote a GUI version it would probably be popular.

tooki · Feb 1, 2009, 03:47 PM

I guess none of you ever heard of SMART Utility?

Big Mac · Feb 1, 2009, 03:58 PM

Nope, first time I heard of SMART Utility. Looks good.

ghporter · Feb 1, 2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I guess none of you ever heard of SMART Utility?

Nope, I'd never heard of it until now. Not a bad little package for $25 (that it is not free is not readily apparent on the page linked above).

seanc · Feb 1, 2009, 04:04 PM

Gavin linked to that in the 2nd post of this thread.

I'm not liking the $25 price tag when I get a LOT more functionality for free on Windows.

besson3c · Feb 1, 2009, 09:04 PM

Why would anybody pay $25 for something they can get for free? I realize that a CLI is ugly and unappealing, but how often would you have to run this thing? Hell, by the time you purchase and download this thing you could figure out how to use smartctl, and you'd save yourself $25.

Maflynn · Feb 2, 2009, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Why would anybody pay $25 for something they can get for free? I realize that a CLI is ugly and unappealing, but how often would you have to run this thing? Hell, by the time you purchase and download this thing you could figure out how to use smartctl, and you'd save yourself $25.

The same reason people are willing to pay for OSX instead of Linux. Just because its free doesn't mean its better or that people want to mess around with the CLI. Most users prefer a graphical interface and are willing to spend money for such polish and ease of use.

besson3c · Feb 2, 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

The same reason people are willing to pay for OSX instead of Linux. Just because its free doesn't mean its better or that people want to mess around with the CLI. Most users prefer a graphical interface and are willing to spend money for such polish and ease of use.

Polish and ease of use for a tool they will run, what, once every few years if that even?

Maflynn · Feb 2, 2009, 09:47 AM

Yes, why not.

besson3c · Feb 2, 2009, 10:01 AM

Whatever floats your boat, I guess... Personally, I can think of much better uses for that money.

besson3c · Feb 2, 2009, 10:21 AM

Everybody is entitled to some form of dogma, aren't they?

Mine is blowing money on unnecessary software (whatever the interface)...

Maflynn · Feb 2, 2009, 11:06 AM

never mind

Hal Itosis · Feb 2, 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Whatever floats your boat, I guess... Personally, I can think of much better uses for that money.

besson3c, i'm curious about the 'installer' you linked to over in: >this post< (#3788693 Jan 13, 2009, 07:38 PM)
Does that make it possible for users to install smartmontools, *without* dealing with MacPorts, fink, etc.?
Just run that install, and it will work on a vanilla Leopard config (with no developer tools either) ?

Rumor · Feb 2, 2009, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I guess none of you ever heard of SMART Utility?

Ug. I downloaded the trial version and ran it.

It told me my drive is failing. This hd is six or seven months old.

Le Flaneur · Feb 2, 2009, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Why would anybody pay $25 for something they can get for free? I realize that a CLI is ugly and unappealing, but how often would you have to run this thing? Hell, by the time you purchase and download this thing you could figure out how to use smartctl, and you'd save yourself $25.

There is a GUI version of smartctl on that same sourceforge page.

Simon · Feb 3, 2009, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Ug. I downloaded the trial version and ran it.

It told me my drive is failing. This hd is six or seven months old.

Same here. Obviously my drive got too warm at one point. No wonder. This MBP gets hot every once in a while when it's working hard.

But when I look at all the reported stats I see it seems to think my disk is old and about to die any moment. Seems a bit hysterical. I don't trust the app.

Rumor · Feb 3, 2009, 03:00 AM

I ran Verify Disk through Disk Utility and it came back fine. That app is a bit beyond my tech knowledge to fully understand.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 3, 2009, 03:20 AM

Okay, so that SMART Utility is telling me I have 2 removed bad sectors.

I just had a full diagnosis - including a full surface scan - by reputable techs in December, with no errors reported.

Anybody have an idea what the hell is going on?

tooki · Feb 3, 2009, 03:57 AM

SMART Utility is much, much, much more cautious than most apps. Most SMART tools give a warning only if a drive parameter exceeds a threshold set by the drive manufacturer. SMART Utility uses its own set of criteria, which tend to be much more conservative.

OreoCookie · Feb 3, 2009, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Same here. Obviously my drive got too warm at one point. No wonder. This MBP gets hot every once in a while when it's working hard.

But when I look at all the reported stats I see it seems to think my disk is old and about to die any moment. Seems a bit hysterical. I don't trust the app.

The app only reads out and interprets the info it gets from smartmontools. Of course you can say it's too `hysterical' about interpreting the data, but since it gets the data from a reputable app, I see no reason not to trust the data itself.

Hal Itosis · Feb 3, 2009, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis

besson3c, i'm curious about the 'installer' you linked to over in: >this post< (#3788693 Jan 13, 2009, 07:38 PM)
Does that make it possible for users to install smartmontools, *without* dealing with MacPorts, fink, etc.?
Just run that install, and it will work on a vanilla Leopard config (with no developer tools either) ?

Yes?
No?
Maybe so?
Anyone know?

CharlesS · Feb 3, 2009, 02:57 PM

Um, that would seem to be the whole point of his providing that installer.

If you look inside the package, you can see that it includes the binaries and man pages, so there you go.

mduell · Feb 3, 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

SMART Utility is much, much, much more cautious than most apps. Most SMART tools give a warning only if a drive parameter exceeds a threshold set by the drive manufacturer. SMART Utility uses its own set of criteria, which tend to be much more conservative.

With a third of drives failing before they hit those looser standards, the increased caution may be a good idea.

besson3c · Feb 3, 2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis

Yes?
No?
Maybe so?
Anyone know?

Yes, I created that package using MacPorts, but it doesn't require MacPorts to be installed.

Hal Itosis · Feb 3, 2009, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Yes, I created that package using MacPorts, but it doesn't require MacPorts to be installed.

Hey that's great, thanks.

i just wasn't sure, since no one else seemed very excited (or grateful) about it.

...and why the he11 doesn't more stuff come that way to begin with?
i'm not a big fan of MacPorts (...or fink... or running make, whatever).

Hal Itosis · Feb 3, 2009, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Um, that would seem to be the whole point of his providing that installer. If you look inside the package, you can see that it includes the binaries and man pages, so there you go.

Wasn't any documentation included, so i wasn't sure what other 'dependencies' might exist.

CharlesS · 04:42 PM

So just use otool -L and find out what libraries it depends on. Or you could just try it...

As for why more command-line tools aren't distributed that way, well, it's because MacPorts is pretty easy to use already, and it makes sure to get all the dependencies for you, something that doesn't happen with pre-packaged binaries.

And even typing configure, then make isn't really that much harder than double-clicking an installer package, either, unless you're averse to using the Terminal, in which case you presumably wouldn't be interested in installing a command-line utility in the first place.

Meanwhile, distributing an app as source allows one download to build and install on any supported platform, whether it's Darwin, Linux, Windows, or something else.

Hal Itosis · Feb 3, 2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

So just use otool -L and find out what libraries it depends on. Or you could just try it...

Or i could just ask (like i did).

Thanks for the additional info... much appreciated.

Originally Posted by CharlesS

So just use otool -L and find out what libraries it depends on.

$ type -a otool
-bash: type: otool: not found

I guess you assume everyone *wants* developer tools installed?

...So now i must ask: does this smartmontools depend on the user having developer tools installed??

besson3c · Feb 3, 2009, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis

Hey that's great, thanks.

i just wasn't sure, since no one else seemed very excited (or grateful) about it.

...and why the he11 doesn't more stuff come that way to begin with?
i'm not a big fan of MacPorts (...or fink... or running make, whatever).

Well, for starters it's generally not good to trust some random guy's (or girl's) package, as this is a good way to get yourself a piece of malware. Not everybody can offer you the official besson3c seal of approval like I can!

Macports (and Fink, I'm presuming) verify the integrity of the source tarball by verifying its checksum.

besson3c · Feb 3, 2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis

Or i could just ask (like i did).

Thanks for the additional info... much appreciated.

$ type -a otool
-bash: type: otool: not found

I guess you assume everyone *wants* developer tools installed?

...So now i must ask: does this smartmontools depend on the user having developer tools installed??

No, it's not a Mac specific app, it's an open source set of command line tools that have been ported to OS X.

besson3c · Feb 3, 2009, 05:12 PM

The md5 checksum for my smartmontools package is bc3bac6a2a31048eeae35abe8020fad8, BTW...

CharlesS · Feb 3, 2009, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis

I guess you assume everyone *wants* developer tools installed?

If you want to install and use open-source software, you want to have developer tools installed.

...So now i must ask: does this smartmontools depend on the user having developer tools installed??

No. How could it?

Hal Itosis · Feb 3, 2009, 06:06 PM

> bc3bac6a2a31048eeae35abe8020fad8
Nice. It verified.
[i'll struggle along without macports and dev tools as long as possible, but will cave in eventually i s'pose.]

Thanks gents. (you too Charles).

Big Mac · Feb 24, 2009, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Yes, I created that package using MacPorts, but it doesn't require MacPorts to be installed.

besson, It says I installed the package successfully, but I don't know where it got installed. I tried using various commands to find it (find, locate, which, apropos) but did not succeed in finding any information on it. Could you help me please?

Simon · Feb 24, 2009, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I tried using various commands to find it (find, locate, which, apropos) but did not succeed in finding any information on it.

IIRC the default location if you compile from source is /usr/local/sbin/smartctrl. You might want to check that location. If that doesn't work, try something like sudo find / -name "smatctrl" -print. That will search everything beneath / for files with names containing smartctrl and will print results as full paths in your shell.

Big Mac · Feb 24, 2009, 04:33 AM

Doesn't seem to work, but thank you for the suggestion. I looked in the installer log and found this:

Feb 24 02:25:36 [29650]: Env: PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin

I looked in all of those directories and haven't had that much luck. It doesn't seem to be in any of those spots. Weird. I guess I should just install it using DarwinPorts or something similar.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 24, 2009, 04:57 AM

I really don't understand why people would pay for a GUI to software they can have free.

</sarcasm>

OreoCookie · Feb 24, 2009, 05:04 AM

@Big Mac
Install MacPorts, then login as root via sudo -s (as an admin user). Type `port install smartctl' and press enter. The rest should take care of itself.

Big Mac · 06:09 AM

Okay, that's what I'll do.

Update:

Got MacPorts installed, got smartmontools installed (had to manually uninstall the previous attempted install before it would work). I was able to get some basic information on my startup disk, but it told me that SMART is available (disk supports it) but SMART is disabled, and then it exited. I think I skipped a disk profiling step. How would I do that?