Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Eden Aurora · Sep 3, 2009, 07:01 AM

I just noticed this. Not sure how long it's existed in in Leopard/SL. Big problem in my opinion.

I wanted to transfer files to a DVD/CD. In this case it was a DVD. I inserted a blank DVD and dragged a bunch of folders containing pictures to the DVD icon. After i was done dragging folders to the DVD icon, i decided to double click the DVD icon to view which folders were selected to be burned. The folders of course show up with the 'alias' symbol.

I found 1 folder which i decided didn't need to be burned and i dragged to the trash. Then i emptied the trash. Instead of deleting the alias folder i created on the blank DVD, it deleted the actual folder which was located elsewhere on my hard drive.

So anything that is dragged to a DVD becomes and alias, and then if you drag that folder or its contents to the trash to remove it from the DVD, it deletes the original source. Seems like a bad bug or 'operation' to me. right?

Spheric Harlot · Sep 3, 2009, 08:00 AM

Not quite.

Anything you drag to a DVD-R generates an alias ON THAT DVD-R until it is burned.

Nothing happens to the original files AT ANY TIME.

If you delete them, well…you delete them.

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 3, 2009, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Not quite.

Anything you drag to a DVD-R generates an alias ON THAT DVD-R until it is burned.

Nothing happens to the original files AT ANY TIME.

If you delete them, well…you delete them.

I think you are misunderstanding him. He deleted the ALIAS folder from the DVD-R by dragging it to the trash and when he emptied the trash, he found that it had deleted the original file on his HD. As I understand him, he never placed the original file in the trash, only the alias created on the DVD-R.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 3, 2009, 08:58 AM

Oh. Woah.

Eden Aurora · Sep 3, 2009, 06:40 PM

Yes, that's exactly what i'm saying.

can you try and see if it happens on your computer as well?

finboy · Sep 3, 2009, 10:34 PM

I don't know if it's related or not, but Leopard doesn't update folders when I send them out to my backup USB drive, it first deletes the existing folder on the USB drive and then sends the desktop folder of the same name out there. Windows, on the other hand, updates the folder on the other drive.

That's handy to know if you use USB drives to back things up, or any external drive I guess, and you don't use FolderSync or SuperDuper or something every time.

TheoCryst · Sep 4, 2009, 02:24 PM

OP: That's odd. I can't repro the bug on my Leopard machine; I'll try again on SL when I'm in front of my laptop.

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 4, 2009, 07:00 PM

OK. I got around to trying to duplicate this bug. Here's what I did:

1) Insert blank DVD-R

2) Created three folders on my desktop named Test 1, Test 2, and Test 3

3) Created a TextEdit document in each respective folder

4) Dragged the three folders with their contents to DVD icon

As expected, alias' were created on the DVD. I dragged Test 3 folder from DVD to trash and emptied trash. No problems - original Test 3 folder was still on my desktop with TextEdit document inside it.

HOWEVER, when I opened Test 2 folder on the DVD and dragged the enclosed TextEdit document to the trash and emptied the trash, THE TEXTEDIT DOCUMENT WAS DELETED FROM THE TEST 2 FOLDER ON MY DESKTOP.

So, while I couldn't duplicate the bug mentioned in the OP, I can confirm that deleting a file from an alias folder on DVD-R prior to burning WILL delete the original file AND the file on the DVD-R.

Interestingly, if I drag a FILE to the root of the DVD-R and subsequently trash the file from the DVD-R, the original file is intact on the HD.

OK, more testing: I placed two folders inside another folder on my desktop. So I had one folder, named Test 3, on my desktop with two embedded folders, Test 2 and Test 1.

Test 3 Folder
--Test 2 Folder
--Test 1 Folder

I dragged the Test 3 folder to the DVD-R and then trashed EMBEDDED Test 2 folder from the DVD-R. TEST 2 FOLDER WAS THEN DELETED FROM THE TEST 3 FOLDER ON MY HD.

This is a SERIOUS, reproducible bug.

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 4, 2009, 07:01 PM

To the OP: was the folder you deleted embedded in another folder on the DVD-R (as in my second test) or was it at the root of the DVD-R (as in my first test)?

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 4, 2009, 07:09 PM

It appears this bug is limited to trashing items (folders, files) that are not at the root level of the DVD-R. While anything at root level has a little "alias" symbol on the icon, anything in a folder does NOT have the alias symbol.

Trash folder or file from root of DVD-R = original folder/file is intact on HD

Trash folder or file not at root level of DVD-R (i.e., embedded in one or more folders) = deletion on original file/folder from DVD-R AND HD

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 4, 2009, 07:33 PM

I found the problem. When you drag a folder to a DVD-R, the OS makes an alias of the folder on the DVD-R. OK, we all knew that. HOWEVER, any files or folders within that folder are NOT alias'. Here's what Get Info says about a Folder 1, containing a file called Test File 1, dragged to the root of a DVD-R (Get Info was run on the folder on the DVD-R):

Kind: Alias
Size: 1 MB
Where: /Users/mrjinglesusa/Desktop/Untitled DVD.fpbf
Original: /Users/mrjinglesusa/Desktop/Folder 1

Here's the Get Info on Test File 1 contained within Folder 1 on the DVD-R (i.e., Get Info was run on the file on the DVD-R):

Kind: Rich Text Format
Size: 4 KB on disk
Where: /Users/mrjinglesusa/Desktop/Folder 1

The OS is not making alias' of files and/or folders that are not on the root on the DVD-R. Not sure how it is linking to them because Get Info shows their location as their location on the HD, not on the DVD-R. They are clearly NOT alias' though.

TheoCryst: can you run a Get Info on a file or folder embedded in a folder you place on the root of a DVD-R in Leopard and see what it says? My guess is that they are proper alias'.

Art Vandelay · Sep 4, 2009, 08:03 PM

This isn't a bug but a problem with using aliases for burning.

When you double click any alias no matter where it is, it's going to open the original. So, when you double click a folder alias in the DVD's burn folder, you're really opening the original folder. Whatever you do now inside that newly opened window is no longer happening in the DVD burn folder but inside the original item's folder.

Mrjinglesusa · Sep 4, 2009, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

This isn't a bug but a problem with using aliases for burning.

When you double click any alias no matter where it is, it's going to open the original. So, when you double click a folder alias in the DVD's burn folder, you're really opening the original folder. Whatever you do now inside that newly opened window is no longer happening in the DVD burn folder but inside the original item's folder.

Ah, that makes perfect sense!

Art Vandelay · Sep 4, 2009, 08:57 PM

I'd advise turning on the Path Bar so you can always keep track of where you are. Even though this behavior is correct, it's not really intuitive, especially when dealing with burn folders.

Simon · Sep 5, 2009, 01:33 AM

But I think the example shows very well that using aliases for burning the way Apple has done is dangerous and a very bad (read misleading) metaphor for regular users. They could probably solve the issue by making all items on the DVD aliases. Or by not using aliases at all and instead use grayed out items or something. I never quite understood why the used aliases. It's really not the same thing. The disk listing should be a catalogue. The alias functionality is not really required for that. It might just have been the easiest implementation.

Is this handled in exactly the same way on SL? Personally I try to use optical media as little as possible, but burning CDs and DVDs is a very popular method especially among not so savvy users. Apple definitely needs to fix this as it's indeed misleading. A pro can definitely understand what's going on here (and from that perspective it's not wrong), but I'd guess about 95% of the user base would not expect it to work this way.

AKcrab · Sep 5, 2009, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Personally I try to use optical media as little as possible, but burning CDs and DVDs is a very popular method especially among not so savvy users. Apple definitely needs to fix this as it's indeed misleading. A pro can definitely understand what's going on here (and from that perspective it's not wrong), but I'd guess about 95% of the user base would not expect it to work this way.

And 95% fail to read/heed the warning when choosing "burn" from iPhoto. It tells you in no uncertain terms that you're burning an iPhoto library, but what people are *expecting* to burn is a CD they can take to wal mart to print some shitty pics.

CharlesS · Sep 5, 2009, 03:37 AM

^ Despite the fact that they could just order the prints right from iPhoto without even having to leave the house.

Eden Aurora · 08:57 AM

To everyone, when i first described the problem in the original post, i left out the fact that i was deleting a folder within a folder (didn't realize it was relevant until now). So your analysis is correct, it will delete files and folders which are below the root level of the CD/DVD. That's the bug i was talking about! Someone pointed out this isn't a bug, but rather bad operation. You may be right, but in my opinion, this needs to be fixed immediately.

Is this a new bug to SL or did it always exist?
Also, how do i remove the sub-folders or sub-files from a DVD/CD without deleting the original? Because that's what i needed to do.

Spheric Harlot · 09:15 AM

This is desired operation.

The items you drag there are aliased and not the sub-items because the whole idea of a burn folder is that you can save it and reuse it as part of your workflow.

For example, if you drag a project's various folders to the burn folder/disc, and every time you burn it, it will automatically burn the latest version; you don't need to keep updating it by hand.

A useful alternative might be to keep burn folders and recordable disks separate and distinct; that would give three different ways of burning from the Finder, though.

Eden Aurora · Sep 5, 2009, 01:06 PM

Well, i was fooled. Now that i know, i won't make that mistake again.
Still not sure how to delete folders from the burn disk (if dragging to the trash deletes original). anyone?

TheoCryst · Sep 5, 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Eden Aurora

Well, i was fooled. Now that i know, i won't make that mistake again.
Still not sure how to delete folders from the burn disk (if dragging to the trash deletes original). anyone?

From what it sounds like, there is no way to do what you're trying to do.

Allow me to explain. Let's assume you have a folder, FolderA. Inside it are FolderB and FileB. When you drag FolderA to a burn folder, you are creating an alias to FolderA, and committing to burning the entire folder. You can still delete the alias to FolderA without any harm; HOWEVER, once you open the link to FolderA in the burn folder, you've entered the original FolderA. There is no way to, say, selectively burn portions of FolderA (say, only burning FileB without burning FolderB) without modifying the original FolderA in the process.

It's a little (read: a lot) counterintuitive, but that's how Apple chose to implement it.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 5, 2009, 02:32 PM

If you wish to burn separate folders of selected items onto a disk (say, some files from 2007 and some files from 2008, separated into folders), just create new folders on the writable medium/within the burn folder itself and drag the individual items directly into those.

The individual files will be aliased into those folders.

That sound like what you're after?

CharlesS · Sep 5, 2009, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Eden Aurora

Well, i was fooled. Now that i know, i won't make that mistake again.
Still not sure how to delete folders from the burn disk (if dragging to the trash deletes original). anyone?

Only delete aliases (with the little arrow badge on their icons), not real folders, and you'll be fine.

Alternatively, you could hold down Option while dragging stuff to the burn folder, as that will make an actual copy of the data instead of making an alias, after which point you can do whatever you want to it.

Atheist · Sep 5, 2009, 05:06 PM

Wow! Not that I use optical media much, but this is good to know. Once you realize what's happening it somewhat obvious but this would definitely confuse the vast majority of users. This sounds more like something Microsoft would do.

Eden Aurora · Sep 5, 2009, 09:46 PM

Why can't the subfolders and subfiles also be alias links? Why is it just the root level that has the alias. When it comes to these burn folders or CD/DVD's, aliases for all files seems like the way to go.

Art Vandelay · Sep 5, 2009, 09:47 PM

Then the top level items wouldn't be real aliases.

CharlesS · Sep 5, 2009, 10:03 PM

Which wouldn't really be a problem at all. The most logical approach would probably be to make a burn folder just a plist file instead of an actual folder, and it could recreate the directory structure of whatever was dragged in. This would make it more like the way other disc burning software such as Toast works, and would also not have the side effect of accidentally adding stuff to the disc if a folder that was dragged in happened to have an alias in it.