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The official Lion thread™ (Page 4)
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Jul 24, 2011, 09:57 AM
 
Is anyone else here a HootSuite user? Reason I am asking is because it ran dog-slow under SL. Under Lion, it seems to be running pretty nicely. I wouldn't say it is a speed demon, but whatever they did under the hood to offload HTML 5 to the graphic chip was a godsend.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 09:59 AM
 
Safari a memory hog? Wow.

I have the opposite problem. kernel_task uses 400 MB (10% of my RAM!). Firefox uses 300 MB.

Safari uses 100 MB (still a lot!!!!). Why is kernel_task such a hog?

P.S. Does anyone know why my battery life is now a whole hour shorter than before installing 10.7? I checked Activity Monitor, and I don't see any CPU load increase in any application before/after the transition. Allegedly I get 5 hours at 100%, I used to get 6 hours.

Edit: Preview needs 227 MB of memory?
Is Apple kidding me? I SHOULD NOT need to use more than a few MB on memory just to export a couple of 4 MB photos. This is ridiculous, there is no way that I should even need my 4 GB of RAM, when 2 GB should do WAY MORE than just fine.
F***, so this means I'll have to shell out another $30 for 10.8 Mountain Lion to come out before they make efficient memory use...............!!
( Last edited by And.reg; Jul 24, 2011 at 12:07 PM. )
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 11:00 AM
 
(I could be wrong but) Kernel Task is essentially the OS, so it shouldn't be surprising that it requires a fair bit of RAM to run.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 11:15 AM
 
How do I show the amount of hard drive space I have available on my Mac in every Finder window?

How do I show the file size of the new .jpg when I am sliding the quality slider in Save As/Export?

^^ This one really irks me because it's a step backwards, because now I have to export multiple files of multiple image qualities to see what the file size is, whereas in 10.6, Preview told me what file size to expect. I don't see any of these options in the respective Finder/Preview pull-down menus, preferences, or System Preferences.


Why can't I wake the computer just by running my finger along the trackpad?
( Last edited by And.reg; Jul 24, 2011 at 12:32 PM. )
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
How do I show the amount of hard drive space I have available on my Mac in every Finder window?
View>Show status bar.

Same as SL, L, etc...
Who'sDaMac?
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 11:59 AM
 
Definitely Snappier™, and, for an OS upgrade, a remarkably painless process.
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Jul 24, 2011, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by I'mDaMac View Post
View>Show status bar.

Same as SL, L, etc...
Not *quite* the same - in those, it was shown by default.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
Safari a memory hog? Wow.

I have the opposite problem. kernel_task uses 400 MB (10% of my RAM!). Firefox uses 300 MB.

Safari uses 100 MB (still a lot!!!!). Why is kernel_task such a hog?

P.S. Does anyone know why my battery life is now a whole hour shorter than before installing 10.7? I checked Activity Monitor, and I don't see any CPU load increase in any application before/after the transition. Allegedly I get 5 hours at 100%, I used to get 6 hours.

Edit: Preview needs 227 MB of memory?
Is Apple kidding me? I SHOULD NOT need to use more than a few MB on memory just to export a couple of 4 MB photos. This is ridiculous, there is no way that I should even need my 4 GB of RAM, when 2 GB should do WAY MORE than just fine.
F***, so this means I'll have to shell out another $30 for 10.8 Mountain Lion to come out before they make efficient memory use...............!!
That IS efficient memory use, Andrej. NOT using available memory is wasting resources.

Also, as has been mentioned, kernel_task is the actual operating system.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
10.8 Mountain Lion
You gonna register that as a trademark and sell it to Apple?
10.7.1 on Mac Pro 8x2.8
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 03:10 PM
 
can anyone confirm this? i cannot access previous searches in the google window in safari... just wonder if it's just me, or...
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Jul 24, 2011, 03:14 PM
 
previous searches in google search field in Safari work fine here.

There is too much "hmm that was odd, well it works now" for this thing to go on the production machine yet.

Testing on my older MacBook, am presently installing Logic and necessary plug-ins.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That IS efficient memory use, Andrej. NOT using available memory is wasting resources.
No it's not efficient use of memory. Give me a break with the semantics. If a state is full of trees for firewood, then why don't we cut down all the trees just to heat everyone's homes in the winter?

Originally Posted by Ted L. Nancy View Post
You gonna register that as a trademark and sell it to Apple?
I wish.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
No it's not efficient use of memory. Give me a break with the semantics. If a state is full of trees for firewood, then why don't we cut down all the trees just to heat everyone's homes in the winter?
Because a forest works rather differently from RAM.

If a pinboard is 1m x 1m, why don't you cram all your notes, reminders and mementos into a single 10cm x 10 cm stack and pin them in the top left corner?

"Give me a break", indeed.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
No it's not efficient use of memory.
Yes, it is. Unused memory is wasted memory. OS X caches data and frequently used apps in RAM.

Want an example? Reboot, and launch something like Photoshop, which takes a while, and a lot of RAM, to launch. Quit Photoshop, do some other stuff, and then launch Photoshop again. You will see that Photoshop launches much more quickly than before, because large parts of the app are cached in RAM.
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Jul 24, 2011, 04:30 PM
 
I think of RAM like the gas tank in my car. Is it my goal to keep lots of empty space in that tank as often as possible? No.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by timecode View Post
Apart from one MAJOR issue I pretty much love the update and I'm sure most things people have found different or strange will be addressed as they usually are with new Apple OS releases. I've also discovered some handy hints and answers to most of my questions in this thread, so thanks everyone. However, anyone know how long it might be before support for non-Apple branded SSD's will return?

I tried an install on my Crucial C300 256GB SSD (an extremely popular and common upgrade for users that wanted a better SSD than Apple offered) and whilst read speeds are perfectly fast, writing to the drive cripples the whole OS for the duration of the write, which on a large file copy could be some time - the write speed appears to be only 8MB/s in Activity Monitor and every operation / app load / new window / etc takes an eternity to achieve - basically unusable. Even with smaller writes this issue stops the user experience being at all 'snappy'.

In the mean time I've split my drive and have my old Snow Leopard instance on one half for when I need an OS that works, and Lion on the other half for when I don't want to be explaining to people why I haven't upgraded to Lion yet :-/
SO, if anyone else comes across a similar issue I'd just like to mention that I've spent the day looking into this and I now have my Lion install running totally slick and faster than I could have imagined... Anyway, upgraded the firmware on my SSD
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Jul 24, 2011, 04:44 PM
 
just an iCal moment...
i used to click on an item for a particular calendar (let's say, Work, colored blue), so a new item would come up the same color. this no longer works. now i make a new item, THEN go in and select the appropriate calendar. yuck...
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Jul 24, 2011, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
I think of RAM like the gas tank in my car. Is it my goal to keep lots of empty space in that tank as often as possible? No.
I thought of using that metaphor, but decided that it really made as little sense as the forest thing - since the goal is also not to keep gasoline as evenly distributed throughout the tank as possible, in order to efficiently use the space, nor does the amount of gasoline admitted into the tank randomly change with use.

So I settled on the pin-board.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Because a forest works rather differently from RAM.

If a pinboard is 1m x 1m, why don't you cram all your notes, reminders and mementos into a single 10cm x 10 cm stack and pin them in the top left corner?

"Give me a break", indeed.

Yeah, exactly give me a break! If 3 applications use half of my allotment, then what happens if I need to open 4 more? Then my memory gets overloaded, duh! That's why I want bloatware and memory-leaking crap out of my computer. It's 2011, now tell me why the hell no one is making programs that don't have memory leaks.

Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Want an example? Reboot, and launch something like Photoshop, which takes a while, and a lot of RAM, to launch. Quit Photoshop, do some other stuff, and then launch Photoshop again. You will see that Photoshop launches much more quickly than before, because large parts of the app are cached in RAM.
You're missing the point. Apps while running shouldn't need to use so much memory. Then what happens when I need to use more apps, or more of the apps that I have open already? I run out of memory, and that backlogs everything to the HD.


I'm absolutely floored that you folks think that memory leaks are "efficient." They're not efficient. Using little memory is efficient, because it SAVES SPACE for other apps! How can anyone possibly dispute that?
( Last edited by And.reg; Jul 24, 2011 at 06:19 PM. )
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 06:38 PM
 
Modern operating systems do not "run out of memory." You're thinking of the way things were in the 1990s.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
Yeah, exactly give me a break! If 3 applications use half of my allotment, then what happens if I need to open 4 more? Then my memory gets overloaded, duh!
(emphasis mine)
No, memory won't get `overloaded:' OS X tries to use as much memory as it can. The only indication of when you actually do run out of memory is when you have page-outs. Little free memory is not an indication of having too little memory, a lot of page-outs are.
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
I'm absolutely floored that you folks think that memory leaks are "efficient." They're not efficient. Using little memory is efficient, because it SAVES SPACE for other apps! How can anyone possibly dispute that?
Using memory `efficiently' doesn't mean using as little as possible, it means using your resources optimally. Hence, if memory is installed, the OS tries to use as much as it can. And the OS allows apps to use as much as memory as it can.
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Jul 24, 2011, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
You're missing the point. Apps while running shouldn't need to use so much memory. Then what happens when I need to use more apps, or more of the apps that I have open already? I run out of memory, and that backlogs everything to the HD.
You don't seem to know how modern memory management works. Apps and data cached into memory aren't taking memory from other programs. If you launch a program which needs RAM which is currently used, that RAM is freed in, literally, a millionth of a second. There is no such thing as running out of memory in a modern OS: if you exceed the amount of RAM in your machine then it will begin to swap to disk.

The only time RAM is wasted is when it isn't used. The OS will use as much RAM as you have for any number of purposes: storing running programs and their data (including texture data from OpenGL games) caching data for frequently used programs and data, etc. Simply put, the RAM is there to be used, and the machine will use it. If that RAM is needed for something else, it will be freed up more quickly than you can think, and new data will be moved into place. Modern OSes shuffle around an enormous amount of data all the time, completely invisibly.

I'm absolutely floored that you folks think that memory leaks are "efficient." They're not efficient. Using little memory is efficient, because it SAVES SPACE for other apps! How can anyone possibly dispute that?
A memory leak is a specific thing, and it isn't what you're describing. Perhaps you should look the term up.
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Jul 24, 2011, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Modern operating systems do not "run out of memory." You're thinking of the way things were in the 1990s.
That's semantical. Once you get a big amount of page outs, your system is going to come to a screeching halt.
At least if you keep switching between apps on a regular basis.

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Jul 24, 2011, 07:26 PM
 
Lion bug: Some iMacs locking up after playing video | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

Over the past few days, quite a few iMac owners have told us they're experiencing systemwide freezes after watching videos. Likewise, Apple's support forums are full of iMac owners experiencing the same issue.

Although the bug is difficult to reproduce reliably, it's not confined to any one type of video. Flash-based YouTube videos appear as likely to cause the system to lock up as viewing movies from the local hard disk in either QuickTime or iTunes.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
That's semantical. Once you get a big amount of page outs, your system is going to come to a screeching halt.
At least if you keep switching between apps on a regular basis.

-t
I would say that a machine runs out of RAM when virtual memory is needed. The person who made the claims pertaining to bloat doesn't understand memory management, but yes, OS X has always been a memory hog too.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I would say that a machine runs out of RAM when virtual memory is needed. The person who made the claims pertaining to bloat doesn't understand memory management, but yes, OS X has always been a memory hog too.
The OS is agnostic as to storing in RAM and stuff paged to disk. It's all memory.
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Jul 24, 2011, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
The OS makes no distinction between RAM and stuff paged to disk. It's all memory.
I agree it's semantics. If the computer is paging to disk significantly, it's run out of RAM, and the computer gets painfully slow at this point.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:13 PM
 
Ok, so far, I'm not too impressed with Lion's performance.

On my 2.4G Core 2 Duo (4GB RAM), it feels a bit sluggish and I get the beach ball more often than in SL.

Safari's performance is BAD, I often get empty screens for 5-10 seconds, sort of like a blank freeze.
Java script seems to be broken, the following website doesn't work at all anymore:
Forex Charts | Currency Charts

Printing is somewhat broken. Often when I print on my Brother laser, it takes 20-40 seconds for "spooling", before the printer gets the data.
That never happened in SL.

Performance wise, it just seems unrefined and unpolished, definitely a difference to a mature SL.

-t
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Ok, so far, I'm not too impressed with Lion's performance.

On my 2.4G Core 2 Duo (4GB RAM), it feels a bit sluggish and I get the beach ball more often than in SL.

Safari's performance is BAD, I often get empty screens for 5-10 seconds, sort of like a blank freeze.
Java script seems to be broken, the following website doesn't work at all anymore:
Forex Charts | Currency Charts

Performance wise, it just seems unrefined and unpolished, definitely a difference to a mature SL.

-t
I have a 2010 13" Air with a slower CPU and it feels just as fast, if not faster.

That site requires Java. Safari should show a missing plug-in icon but it doesn't. Install Java for Lion.
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:17 PM
 
*shrug*

I thought Java was a standard install with the OS. Since when do you need to manually install it? Let me Google that.

SNIP

Well, WTF, you do have to manually install it. Retarded.

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1421

-t
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:18 PM
 
That's lame. Apple is really trying to kill off Java it seems, but doing it in a manner that's confusing to its users.

Anyways, click on this link:

NetDania - Java help

Java is here:

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1421
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
That's lame. Apple is really trying to kill off Java it seems, but doing it in a manner that's confusing to its users.

Anyways, click on this link:

NetDania - Java help
Apple isn't trying to kill java, but they're phasing out having their own version. OS X will now uses the same standard java install as Windows and Linux, which is a good thing. Means we wont be one version behind any more.
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:20 PM
 
Apple isn't trying kill Java. They've just stopped taking responsibility for it, as it's third-party software.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:20 PM
 
Using all the available RAM should not be the design goal of an application programmer, even on a modern OS. Efficient use of memory, yes - using it all because it's there and forcing the OS to use a lot of VM, no. There is a difference. Some browsers are more memory efficient than others, and that's important, especially for those with comparatively low RAM. Pretending that just because modern OSs dynamically manage memory on the fly and therefore we shouldn't concern ourselves at all with how efficient our apps are is rather silly.

Based on my usage, Opera is by far the most efficient browser when it comes to having large numbers of tabs open at the same time. With 25 tabs open other browsers take up large memory footprints and start to slow down, but Opera uses comparatively little RAM and remains spry with large numbers of tabs open. Now that's efficient programming, and that still matters even on modern hardware and modern OSs.

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Jul 24, 2011, 08:21 PM
 
Why not display the no-Java icon? Cuz they're trying to kill off Java.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Apple isn't trying kill Java. They've just stopped taking responsibility for it, as it's third-party software.
And it's in line with the rest of the industry because Microsoft does the same thing.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:28 PM
 
Hmmm... Not only do you need to install Java, you need to enable it and restart Safari.

And that site still doesn't seem to work. It does work fine in Firefox 5.0.1 though.

BTW, the Java vendor for this Java is listed as Apple.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
And it's in line with the rest of the industry because Microsoft does the same thing.
So you're suggesting all is great because Apple is doing the same thing as Microsoft then?
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:31 PM
 
That site doesn't work for me on Snow Leopard either. Do you have to be logged in to see it?
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
That site doesn't work for me on Snow Leopard either. Do you have to be logged in to see it?
No, it works fine in Firefox in Lion (once you install Java).

And it works fine for me in Snow Leopard.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Hmmm... Not only do you need to install Java, you need to enable it and restart Safari.
I didn't have to. Just had to let it install and my Java apps worked just fine.

So you're suggesting all is great because Apple is doing the same thing as Microsoft then?
Apple is the only OS provider which had its own version of Java. This is a holdover from OS 9 days, and has always been a problem, because it means we're always a release or two behind everyone else. As someone who uses some Java apps quite regularly, it was a pain to have to wait for versions of those apps which would work with Apple's java. Now we use the same Java as everyone else, and that isn't an issue any more. And, when Java 1.7 is released, we won't have to wait three months for it.
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
The OS is agnostic as to storing in RAM and stuff paged to disk. It's all memory.
Not true. Virtual memory is treated as a last resort - it is not created until absolutey necessary
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
That site doesn't work for me on Snow Leopard either. Do you have to be logged in to see it?
No, it always worked out of the box in SL.

-t
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not true. Virtual memory is treated as a last resort - it is not created until absolutey necessary
1) Not true. My machine has been up for less than 12 hours and I already have page outs with 8 GB of RAM. Paging is a normal part of OS X memory management.
2) once created, the OS just sees paged files as memory, same as RAM.
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Apple is the only OS provider which had its own version of Java. This is a holdover from OS 9 days, and has always been a problem, because it means we're always a release or two behind everyone else. As someone who uses some Java apps quite regularly, it was a pain to have to wait for versions of those apps which would work with Apple's java. Now we use the same Java as everyone else, and that isn't an issue any more. And, when Java 1.7 is released, we won't have to wait three months for it.
That's not my issue.

What I'm complaining about is Apple's method of displaying non-functioning applets. It just leaves an empty space which means nobody knows WTF is going on. I believe Apple does this on purpose as a means of expediting their demise, at the expense of the users in the interim. turtle777 is a smart guy and a computer geek (in a good way), yet even he didn't know that he had to install Java separately.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Using all the available RAM should not be the design goal of an application programmer, even on a modern OS. Efficient use of memory, yes - using it all because it's there and forcing the OS to use a lot of VM, no. There is a difference. Some browsers are more memory efficient than others, and that's important, especially for those with comparatively low RAM. Pretending that just because modern OSs dynamically manage memory on the fly and therefore we shouldn't concern ourselves at all with how efficient our apps are is rather silly.

Based on my usage, Opera is by far the most efficient browser when it comes to having large numbers of tabs open at the same time. With 25 tabs open other browsers take up large memory footprints and start to slow down, but Opera uses comparatively little RAM and remains spry with large numbers of tabs open. Now that's efficient programming, and that still matters even on modern hardware and modern OSs.

If there is something to cache, using all available memory is exactly what an OS should do, and to not do so would be suboptimal. You have it backwards
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:41 PM
 
This is a big WTF!

I installed Java from the Apple source. No dice.

Went to the Java website to check for my install: Verify Java Version
Verify Java Version
Mac Users:Use the Software Update feature (available on the Apple menu) to check that you have the most up-to-date version of Java for your Mac.
WTF ?

Of course, Software Update doesn't find anything.

Gonna install Java for a second time. Do I have to reboot ?

-t
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
1) Not true. My machine has been up for less than 12 hours and I already have page outs with 8 GB of RAM. Paging is a normal part of OS X memory management.
2) once created, the OS just sees paged files as memory, same as RAM.
How does that make what I said untrue?
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How does that make what I said untrue?
Virtual memory isn't just treated as a last resort. It's just another place to store data. We see it used most often when we exceed physical RAM, but the OS is always paging stuff in and out.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:47 PM
 
By the way, if you want to see the real drawback to Apple having its own version of Java, use a Java app on a machine Apple no longer supports. You're stuck with whatever version of Java Apple finally developed for that machine.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Jul 24, 2011, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
This is a big WTF!

I installed Java from the Apple source. No dice.

Went to the Java website to check for my install: Verify Java Version


WTF ?

Of course, Software Update doesn't find anything.

Gonna install Java for a second time. Do I have to reboot ?

-t
Already tried that. Rebooting doesn't fix the problem. BTW, the Java version is exactly the same as the version in Snow Leopard, but it works fine in Snow Leopard. Both are from Apple.

Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
By the way, if you want to see the real drawback to Apple having its own version of Java, use a Java app on a machine Apple no longer supports. You're stuck with whatever version of Java Apple finally developed for that machine.
Like I said, that is not my issue. I'm happy to have that 3rd party support Java rather than Apple itself.

What my issue is Apple's preference to confuse its users when such applets don't work. It just leaves everything completely blank so nobody knows what's going on.
     
 
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