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The official Lion thread™ (Page 9)
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Clinically Insane
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Aug 17, 2011, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Sort of. I mean that Apple is looking forward to a time when everyone will be able to rely on online downloads of OS updates to such an extent that they'll download and install very fast and pretty transparently through the iCloud so to speak, and that if a new boot disk needs a full OS the EFI will just hop online and nearly instantly get the drive bootable. But that time is not here yet.

I did forget about the whole downloading Lion as a means of recovery thing in brand new Macs, and this is great, but I think it should be a last ditch effort because for most people when the grease hits the fan and they need to restore their machine they will probably be far more interested in recovering from a USB drive if they have one available and have made a recovery disk rather than waiting for much longer to re-download Lion.

However, even then I would hope that this would be a temporary measure, and my reason for saying this coincides with your thought process here...

Once Apple's file system has block level snapshots what would be most ideal is if all of the OS guts be stored in their own pool. I use the term "pool" borrowing this term from a ZFS based file system where a pool is like a partition only it doesn't need to have a set quota as to how much disk space it can consume from your overall disk. You'd have a pool for your home directory, the OS guts, your application folder, and everything else that warrants a pool.

Before each OS update a snapshot is taken of the OS pool, which of an under 5 gig OS would take a few seconds. The result would be that you can safely back peddle to any OS version you want at any time... Want to run OS X 10.7.0? No problem... 10.6.3? No problem...

All that would leave is some means to get the base on there on a freshly formatted drive. I think the current mechanisms would work perfectly.
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Only the best from the most valuable corporation on the face of the earth.

besson, I know I've asked you this before, but why don't you go to Cupertino, get hired as a multi-million dollar software engineer and whip the OS X dev team into shape? Seriously. You could iron out a bunch of these rough edges, speed up the core OS by a factor of 5 at least and get a new super replacement for HFS going in your spare time.

Why don't you run for office, become president, and turn this country into a Republican utopia?

Just teasing you, but I appreciate the compliment! Desktop software development is not really my thing though, I'm more of a web services guy. Besides, Apple is doing fine on their own, nothing is perfect, and I'm sure many of the Apple dudes would agree with me and some of the other criticism that has been leveled by others. It is far easier to be a critic than the guys actually creating stuff!
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 12:50 PM
 
Fair enough, but a bit of a let down. I do think very highly of your computing expertise, as I've said before a number of times. If only we could get one of our own running the OS X team, I'm sure the product would benefit considerably from it.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 12:51 PM
 
Plus, it's always easier to be the armchair developer or politician

-t
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Fair enough, but a bit of a let down. I do think very highly of your computing expertise, as I've said before a number of times. If only we could get one of our own running the OS X team, I'm sure the product would benefit considerably from it.

See this MacNN? This is what we need more of: love.

... Especially love directed at besson3c.
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 01:24 PM
 
Armchair love.

-t
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 01:27 PM
 
Hey besson, bro, I'm paging you in the Lounge Apple Store is Down thread. FYI.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Are we really going to do this? I remember that conversation — what I pointed out two years ago was that USB sticks were still an order of magnitude more expensive than optical media, and that this was the reason why neither Apple nor pretty much anyone else sold software on USB sticks. You responded with some BS argument claiming that the USB sticks weren't that much more expensive, which was based on a ridiculous $1 per disc shipping cost you made up which caused the shipping to dominate everything else in the equation. Even in consumer land, it doesn't cost anything near $100 to ship a 100-pack of CD/DVD media — and it didn't two years ago, either.

What's happening now is that Apple's found something even cheaper than optical media: no media at all. The production costs, shipping costs, packaging, you name it — all goes to zero. The new MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros don't even come with a boot disk of any kind. At all. Yes, they are offering an optional USB installer for Lion. They're also heavily downplaying it, and charging twice as much for it as for the downloadable version. They're also charging twice as much for it as what Snow Leopard, which shipped on a DVD, cost.

At this juncture, they of course have to stop distributing the OS on DVDs as a matter of necessity, since several of their actual consumer-targeted machines don't even have optical drives at all anymore. When we had that argument two years ago, the consumer laptop was still the white MacBook, and the MBA was designed to be an auxiliary computer which you would use in tandem with a more full-featured machine, and was configured as such, and all the standalone Macs were equipped with optical drives, so it would have been idiotic from a financial standpoint to use USB sticks at that time. They're still too expensive (relatively speaking) to be practical, which is why Apple has to move to something else entirely — in this case digital downloads.

We'll probably get to a point where flash drives are practical for this sort of thing — with SSDs becoming more and more popular, the price of flash media has to start going down before too long. We're not there yet, though, and in the end it may not matter, if the digital download method turns out to be successful.
Ya ya. Bottom line, contrary to your position, Apple's phased out optical and ushered in digital and USB. Period. End of story.
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
9. and if you want to install a vanilla Lion to an external drive, that's going to install yet another recovery partition to your internal HD, because the original recovery partition is linked only to your original install of Lion on your original HD
Well, this one's not true. If you install Lion on an external drive, it puts the Recovery partition on the external drive, not on your internal one.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
1. When does the recovery partition NOT install???
There have been reports on Apple's support forums (link) of the Recovery HD downloading the retail version of Lion, even when run from the new MacBook Airs, and since that version won't boot those machines, it leaves those users up a creek if they have to reinstall for some reason. And since a version that will boot those machines is not downloadable at the present time, it's really a troublesome thought to have one of those machines right now.

3. Apple frees up 3 GB of wasted space that you paid for (depends on your viewpoint).
It should at least ask the user before doing so.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
For starters, Google "Recovery Disk Assistant" and you will see that Apple has released a utility that will allow you to create USB boot disks you can use to recover a bad Lion install, which takes care of your points 3-10, I think.
While this is true, it only images the recovery partition onto the USB stick. The actual OS installers still have to be downloaded at install time.

This is not Grandma friendly, but if Apple can automate this, perhaps make creating a boot disk part of the install process, I think there is a reasonably sound path forward, do you agree?
I would agree with that.

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Ya ya. Bottom line, contrary to your position, Apple's phased out optical and ushered in digital and USB. Period. End of story.
My position from two years ago was:

The reason you're not likely to see the OS distributed on a USB stick is because they tend to be one to two orders of magnitude more expensive than optical media. This is the main problem that prevents us from ditching optical drives, at least at the present time.
That was two years ago. Apple has now solved that problem by discontinuing the use of any media at all, including USB sticks. They only begrudgingly offer the OS on a USB stick if you agree to doubling the price.

I never said that optical drives were here to stay indefinitely, just that at the time of that discussion it didn't make sense to remove them. My guess at the time was that they would probably eventually end up putting the OS installer on an SD card, which would have made sense with the way they were adding SD readers to everything at the time. I will admit I didn't foresee the App Store downloadable method.

It's clear that you have some two-year-old axe to grind, but I don't really want to argue with you. Don't you think it's rather tiresome?
( Last edited by CharlesS; Aug 17, 2011 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Added link to Apple's support forums)

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Aug 17, 2011, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post

I never said that optical drives were here to stay indefinitely, just that at the time of that discussion it didn't make sense to remove them. My guess at the time was that they would probably eventually end up putting the OS installer on an SD card, which would have made sense with the way they were adding SD readers to everything at the time. I will admit I didn't foresee the App Store downloadable method.

It's clear that you have some two-year-old axe to grind, but I don't really want to argue with you. Don't you think it's rather tiresome?
After all that debate we had... you missed. Just sayin'.
     
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Aug 17, 2011, 11:40 PM
 
Okay, that settles it. Welcome to my ignore list.

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Aug 17, 2011, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Okay, that settles it. Welcome to my ignore list.
Easy CharlesS, easy man.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 04:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Ya ya. Bottom line, contrary to your position, Apple's phased out optical and ushered in digital and USB. Period. End of story.
No, and that's where you are/were wrong: They did NOT usher in USB. USB is NOT their replacement for optical media for software distribution.

You seem to have some puerile need to be LESS wrong than CharlesS. It's somewhere between amusing and tedious.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 04:56 AM
 
I think the conversation's getting heated across the board among a number of you. Yowza, it's not like we're debating religion, war or politics here, right? Right?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
No, and that's where you are/were wrong: They did NOT usher in USB. USB is NOT their replacement for optical media for software distribution.

You seem to have some puerile need to be LESS wrong than CharlesS. It's somewhere between amusing and tedious.
Apple has replaced software on disc with digital only and USB. Period. End of story.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 10:12 AM
 
freudling, Charles isn't listening any more, and I don't believe anyone else cares. Please stop.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 10:17 AM
 
Period. End of story.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Period. End of story.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 11:18 AM
 
So, uh. . . Lion.

Anyone seeing anything weird with 10.7.1? No problems here.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Aug 18, 2011, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Okay, that settles it. Welcome to my ignore list.
LOL finally someone on here is more annoying than me!
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Aug 20, 2011, 06:33 PM
 
New interesting tidbit...

When launching the Terminal on Lion, it will tell you if you have new mail.
     
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Aug 20, 2011, 06:41 PM
 
It did that like for ages.

A quick google search shows posts as early as 2002.

-t
     
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Aug 20, 2011, 06:52 PM
 
Thanks Turtle. I never noticed.
     
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Aug 20, 2011, 06:57 PM
 
Most Unix shells report on mail in the local spool. This doesn't mean your email account has new mail, just your local system spool where cronjobs and other system stuff is mailed to you.
     
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Aug 22, 2011, 09:14 AM
 
Has anyone here run into problems after enabling TRIM on their third party SSD in Lion (or Snow Leopard)?

I've enabled it in Lion and have NOT run into any problems, but I'm curious to hear if TRIM functionality on 3rd party SSDs is as seamless for everyone else as it was for me. I've tried it on three different SSDs so far with no ill effects.
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 09:02 AM
 
Continued use of Lion has exposed another bug: dialog boxes on the major Apple apps (Safari, Mail, etc.) don’t respond to keyboard input any more, beyond hitting enter or space to select the currently highlighted one. Previously, you could use tab to move between the buttons, but now… nada. This is a seriously retrograde step in terms of functionality.
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 10:18 AM
 
Here's another example of Apple changing something purely for the sake of changing it. In Snow Leopard and earlier, if you had a folder (such as Applications) in your dock configured to display as a list sorted by name, the popup would display with the list of apps scrolled to the to top: i.e. Address Book would be at the top. With Lion, the list shows up automatically scrolled to the bottom. I can't think of any reason why this would be done.
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
Continued use of Lion has exposed another bug: dialog boxes on the major Apple apps (Safari, Mail, etc.) don’t respond to keyboard input any more, beyond hitting enter or space to select the currently highlighted one. Previously, you could use tab to move between the buttons, but now… nada. This is a seriously retrograde step in terms of functionality.
Lion reset a bunch of prefs to default for me — check the keyboard commands pref pane in System Preferences
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
Continued use of Lion has exposed another bug: dialog boxes on the major Apple apps (Safari, Mail, etc.) don’t respond to keyboard input any more, beyond hitting enter or space to select the currently highlighted one. Previously, you could use tab to move between the buttons, but now… nada. This is a seriously retrograde step in terms of functionality.
At first I thought they had removed ⌘D (don't save) and thought it was dumb. But later I learned that they changed it to ⌘⌫ because in the new expanded dialogs, "don't save" conflicted with "desktop" (both were ⌘D), and then I thought it was actually rather smart.

So maybe there are specific keyboard shortcuts now, that you just need to relearn? What sort of dialogs are there? Does ⌘. work?
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I learned that they changed it to ⌘⌫
That is smart, because that's the Finder shortcut for empty trash. In the case of saving a file, it's like throwing away your changes.
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 06:36 PM
 
Actually it's the shortcut to put something in the trash. ⇧⌘⌫ empties the trash.
Vandelay Industries
     
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Aug 26, 2011, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
At first I thought they had removed ⌘D (don't save) and thought it was dumb. But later I learned that they changed it to ⌘⌫ because in the new expanded dialogs, "don't save" conflicted with "desktop" (both were ⌘D), and then I thought it was actually rather smart.
Thank you for that!

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Aug 26, 2011, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
Continued use of Lion has exposed another bug: dialog boxes on the major Apple apps (Safari, Mail, etc.) don’t respond to keyboard input any more, beyond hitting enter or space to select the currently highlighted one. Previously, you could use tab to move between the buttons, but now… nada. This is a seriously retrograde step in terms of functionality.
This sounds more like a step backwards in ease of keyboard use.... Apple is thinking of having you do more fingering with the computer (puns aside) they're turning everything with a small screen into a touchscreen device, including the MacBook Airs (bet on it). Why else would Apple not care about keyboard intuition anymore? I'm willing to bet anything that Apple is making a Macbook-without-keyboard model... oh wait, they already have, it's called the iPad 3.
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Aug 27, 2011, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Lion reset a bunch of prefs to default for me — check the keyboard commands pref pane in System Preferences
You’re right; there is an option to reënable keyboard input:



Thank God for that. OS X becomes significantly more awkward for me to use without dialogs responding to keyboard input.
     
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Aug 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
 
Apologize if this has been discussed (I tried searching). The "automatically adjust brightness" on my 2009 MBP is seriously broken in Lion. Almost every time, coming out of sleep, it fails to re-adjust the brightness and just leaves it at the last value. So, if it's fairly bright and then I sleep it, the next morning when everything is nice and dark I get blinded, and it never adjusts. It worked great in SL.

I'm seeing some intermittent problems with sleep in general - sometimes, when I come out of sleep, WiFi doesn't reconnect. If I try to re-sleep, then the screen stays black and I end up holding down the power button.

Have to say, not real happy with Lion.

I'm on 10.7.1.
     
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Aug 28, 2011, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I did forget about the whole downloading Lion as a means of recovery thing in brand new Macs, and this is great, but I think it should be a last ditch effort because for most people when the grease hits the fan and they need to restore their machine they will probably be far more interested in recovering from a USB drive if they have one available and have made a recovery disk rather than waiting for much longer to re-download Lion.
IME, "most" people are interested in a speedy *start* to recovery; whether it takes an hour or two hours is secondary. .
Also, most people are pretty clueless about where the hell they left the damn recovery disk.
Or don't, in fact, have it along when they're facing acute need (we've witnessed a bunch of threads to that effect here).
     
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Aug 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
 
Well, if I'm over at a friend/relative/acquaintance's house fixing their computer, it's a great help to me if I'm not stuck there an extra two hours while I wait for the stupid installer to download.

I imagine that if people are hiring a technician by the hour, they will also appreciate the procedure taking a fifth of the time it would normally take.

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Aug 28, 2011, 03:37 PM
 
If I'm hired as a tech by the hour, I bring along my USB installer (as well as my pouch with 10.3, 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6 install DVDs).

It's nice to have a "local" install option — and right now, techs are struggling* with the new machines for lack of a restore partition on freshly-installed replacement drives — but it's not really a concern to the non-techie majority.


*) read: "****ing PISSED"
     
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Sep 4, 2011, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Which reminds me...

My Aventail Connect VPN software doesn't seem to work in Lion. Dammit.
Updating to 10.5.3 has solved the problem. It works in Lion for me. 10.5.1 doesn't work consistently.

10.5.4 will not officially support Lion, but will be listed as "compatible with". It is supposedly out this month.
Apparently 10.5.5 will officially support Lion, but there is no ETA yet on this one.

https://www.fuzeqna.com/sonicwallkb/....asp?kbid=9022

This is the main thing holding me back, but I may make the jump anyway once Aventail Connect 10.5.4 and Lion 10.7.2 are both out.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
IME, "most" people are interested in a speedy *start* to recovery; whether it takes an hour or two hours is secondary. .
Also, most people are pretty clueless about where the hell they left the damn recovery disk.
Or don't, in fact, have it along when they're facing acute need (we've witnessed a bunch of threads to that effect here).
What?!?

It is soooooooo much nicer to just have the recovery disc in hand. Plus, some of the low end data usage caps are in the 2-5 GB per month range, and accounts with those low data usage caps have slow download speeds.
     
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Sep 5, 2011, 01:10 AM
 
That requires having it in hand.
     
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Sep 5, 2011, 08:07 PM
 
How do you turn out the resolution settings in OS X?

Currently on my iMac in Snow Leopard I have all the fonts turned up, because I dislike its ultra high pixel density. The 27" iMac has the pixel density close to that of a MacBook Pro, despite the fact it's a desktop and not a laptop. It makes everything hard to read at the default settings.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That requires having it in hand.
A very easy thing. In the old days it would just mean getting it out of your say MacBook's box, because one shipped with every Mac. These days it would require just putting one in that same box. Apple really should have an optional Make-A-10.7-Recovery-Disk step before the 10.7 install IMO… and shouldn't require 10.6 either.

Now, in my case I'm a geek like you, so I have multiple copies in various places, plus I have that recovery boot disk (which isn't the full install) in multiple spots too just in case.
     
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Sep 5, 2011, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Now, in my case I'm a geek like you
It's nice for Apple that geeks like us buy their stuff, but we're not the market.
     
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Sep 6, 2011, 01:25 AM
 
I was getting incredibly frustrated with Lion - cmd tab was not working, I wasn't able to see which desktop was binding what etc; other uses I've talked to have been having the same issues making it beyond difficult to enjoy the upgrade.

For me the biggest frustration was the loss of Spaces - not seeing each document, not having that control and overview etc; etc;

I solved ALL my problems in one fell swoop. I played around in System Preferences to try and solve the problem and discovered the Golden Key to all of this is the Applications Windown F-command in System Preferences - changing that (I chose CRTL ALT CMD H, just because it's fast and easy for me, but that's just me) made everything suddenly work.

Here's how (and if any of these explanations are simplistic, then blame me, I need it this clear myself): Open System Preferences then Open Keyboard (second row fourth icon), click Mission Control (the second in the list on the left) and the second on the list is Application Windows, click on the right hand side of that line and the F10 command will be changeable, pick an alternative shortcut (and make it something that doesn't interfere with Finder) and the results are as follows:

1. Cmd Tab to switch applications now works again, and Cmd Tab not showing was a deal breaker for me. Am I right that Lion seems to Cmd Tab or Switch to Desktops rather than applications? So if I assign iTunes to say Desktop 7, it doesn't switch to iTunes anymore, it switches to iTunes just because it has an Assigned Desktop (7). And that assigning is a must to get Lion working properly? I have now done this: my top 10 applications now have each an assigned desktop of their own and this seems to work well. (If you need to know - press the Application's icon in the Dock and go to options and then click Assign to This Desktop - the Application must be sitting already on the desktop you want to assign it to, so if Desktop 7, you need to go Mission Control, add desktop (if not there) then open or move the Application to that desktop, then go to the Dock and hold the Application icon down).

2. Using my new keyboard shortcut I can now gather all open application desktops into one overview. So I were to go against Lion's best practice and have 12 open PDFs on 12 desktops, I could still use CMD TAB to switch to Preview, then, I use my new shortcut, and it "gathers" all the preview documents into one Mission Window and I instantly see all open Preview documents on one desktop AND see all previously opened and recent Preview documents underneath. I then click on my document of choice. THis is pretty much like Spaces - and I can SEE each document much more clearly than in the Desktop viewing bar.

3. My stress levels have dropped and I will not be having an aneurism by Friday.......

Hope this helps someone. I might be able to cope now.....
( Last edited by intelegant; Sep 6, 2011 at 04:23 AM. )
     
Eug
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Sep 6, 2011, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Updating to 10.5.3 has solved the problem. It works in Lion for me. 10.5.1 doesn't work consistently.

10.5.4 will not officially support Lion, but will be listed as "compatible with". It is supposedly out this month.
Apparently 10.5.5 will officially support Lion, but there is no ETA yet on this one.

https://www.fuzeqna.com/sonicwallkb/....asp?kbid=9022

This is the main thing holding me back, but I may make the jump anyway once Aventail Connect 10.5.4 and Lion 10.7.2 are both out.
I lied. I just updated it. I was using Aventail Connect 10.5.3 for quite some time on my laptop and it works perfectly. I tried it with my laptop's install on my iMac, and it worked perfectly there too, so I've taken the plunge... with multiple Snow Leopard backups though just in case.

I tried an upgrade but the same weird issues in Safari I was getting in Snow Leopard reappeared in Lion. I have this strange issue where in some pages (like Photobucket), something sometimes continues to load and load and load so that the page becomes about 10 times or more too wide, but usually with no content past the normal page. I say usually because every once in a while it would mean text would not wrap, and would just keep on going sideways.

I tried deleting all the plugins and prefs to no avail. It was if there was some wayward Javascript or something. This only happened on very specific sites so I've lived with it, but obviously it got pretty annoying. I wanted to delete Safari but wasn't sure if I'd be able to reload it. Could I have done that?

Anyways, so what I did is a clean install. Now Safari behaves.

In the meantime I've decided to go from POP Yahoo! mail to IMAP in Lion. I always wanted IMAP but Mail.app only recently supported it, and only as default in Lion. I have similar directories on my iMac as my Yahoo! account, but the contents were not exactly the same. Lots of overlap, but some unique messages in each too. So, I had to merge them. This has been a very painful process and I'm not finished yet.

Pro:
Lion and Yahoo! will usually detect if the messages are repeats and if so, only keeps one copy. So, if I have 100 messages on the iMac and 100 messages on Yahoo!, the combined account might have only 125 messages. The other 75 duplicate messages will be discarded.

Con:
If you have lots of messages, the IMAP server's transfer process crashes. I had to keep manually transferring batches of messages. However, even if I successfully transferred the messages, sometimes the date assigned to those messages was changed to the current date, not the actual receive/send date. This happened about a quarter of the time. What's even weirder is sometimes in the same batch of messages, some would retain the original date and some would have the current date. So what this meant is that some of the messages from say 2007 were labelled as 2011-09-06. Obviously, this totally screws up the directories. So what I did is delete them from the IMAP directory and then retransferred them, hoping the date would be correct the second time around. A very long and arduous process. I was literally at this for hours yesterday, and I'm only about half-way finished.

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I dunno, but I couldn't see any other way of doing it.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It's nice for Apple that geeks like us buy their stuff, but we're not the market.
Their main market is the common end user, which is why Apple usually tries to emphasize ease of implementation.

In contrast, the install process for Lion has been a big headache and sometimes higher cost for some n00bs. A bud just called me from overseas a little while back to make sure the install process wasn't as idiotic as he thought it was. Since he was on 10.5, I had to assure him it was. His install process:

1. Run down to the local Mac store.
2. Install Snow Leopard.
3. Download the updates for Snow Leopard.
4. Buy Lion online.
5. Install Lion.

Oh and he has multiple Macs to upgrade.
( Last edited by Eug; Sep 6, 2011 at 10:50 AM. )
     
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Sep 6, 2011, 10:51 AM
 
True, to a point. The omission of a floppy drive was a major headache, too, fo a number of ordinary users.

These are the growing pains Apple inflicts on the way to a simpler future.

It sucks for some (maybe a lot of) people right now, but in a few years, nobody's gonna look back. And if Apple didn't force the issue, things wouldn't change.

It really, really sucks, though, that they started selling new hardware before they actually had a working restore solution in place for tech support.
     
Eug
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Sep 6, 2011, 10:58 AM
 
I am just confused as to why Apple didn't offer Lion-on-a-stick right from the outset, and why they made Snow Leopard a pre-requisite. Was it the size of the OS? IIRC, my Snow Leopard install disc is 7.5 GB. This is the one that should boot any Snow Leopard compatible machine, not a restore disc for a specific Mac.

If my friends had the Lion-on-a-stick option (with no Snow Leopard requirement) they would have simply gone to the Mac store and bought that instead.

Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
There have been reports on Apple's support forums (link) of the Recovery HD downloading the retail version of Lion, even when run from the new MacBook Airs, and since that version won't boot those machines, it leaves those users up a creek if they have to reinstall for some reason. And since a version that will boot those machines is not downloadable at the present time, it's really a troublesome thought to have one of those machines right now.
Oh, I didn't know that. Wow, that's really stupid.
( Last edited by Eug; Sep 6, 2011 at 11:07 AM. )
     
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Sep 6, 2011, 11:07 AM
 
More beefs with Preview (10.7.1):


[1a] Sometimes, when I drag a folder into the column view when I want to specify where to export a document, the transparent preview of the folder just hangs there.

[1b] Then, if it hangs, and I want to switch from, say, the PNG screenshot to a JPEG via the pull-down menu, I get a screen that asks me if I want Alpha transparency with my JPEG, and then when I save anyways, it tells me that I need to have .png at the end of my file name. WTF?

[2] If I change folders (and no hang, by luck), but then decide to change file type, again, say from PNG to JPEG, Preview's column view changes the folder from where I want the document to be saved to where the parent folder is containing the original image.

[3] I still cannot, for the life of me, edit photos from a camera card (SDXC), then resave/export them for any more than 2 photos before Preview crashes.

[4] If I want to crop a big image in Preview, and I do Command-A... and then I want to crop, say, the right side of the image off, then the little double arrow appears and in 10.6, this would resize the marquee, BUT NO instead clicking and dragging resizes THE IMAGE! So, now I have to make the image bigger before I can make the image smaller/crop.




[5] And this one has to do with the Finder. Let's say that I have Folder A with 439 items and Folder B with 83 items, and I want to dump the contents of Folder B into Folder A, but then not replace any of the items in Folder A. Does anyone know where in the world the "Don't Replace" option from 10.6 went? I don't see any of these options anywhere when asked what to do about duplicates, and there's no way that I want to sort hundreds of items manually.

Lion feels completely like Windows now. I still can't get used to this crap.


PREVIEW RUNS LIKE CRAP! Apple took a quick, decent app and filled it as much as possible with so many annoyances, bugs, and crashes (**ABCs**). I must've submitted something like 20 bug reports already.



[6] Also, Apple still didn't fix TextEdit.
( Last edited by And.reg; Sep 6, 2011 at 11:53 AM. )
This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
Eug
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Sep 6, 2011, 11:09 AM
 
I use WIndows 7 and Mac OS X every day.

Lion doesn't feel anything like Windows IMO. In fact, I think Lion has gone further in differentiating itself than prior versions of OS X.


Originally Posted by Eug View Post
In the meantime I've decided to go from POP Yahoo! mail to IMAP in Lion. I always wanted IMAP but Mail.app only recently supported it, and only as default in Lion. I have similar directories on my iMac as my Yahoo! account, but the contents were not exactly the same. Lots of overlap, but some unique messages in each too. So, I had to merge them. This has been a very painful process and I'm not finished yet.

Pro:
Lion and Yahoo! will usually detect if the messages are repeats and if so, only keeps one copy. So, if I have 100 messages on the iMac and 100 messages on Yahoo!, the combined account might have only 125 messages. The other 75 duplicate messages will be discarded.

Con:
If you have lots of messages, the IMAP server's transfer process crashes. I had to keep manually transferring batches of messages. However, even if I successfully transferred the messages, sometimes the date assigned to those messages was changed to the current date, not the actual receive/send date. This happened about a quarter of the time. What's even weirder is sometimes in the same batch of messages, some would retain the original date and some would have the current date. So what this meant is that some of the messages from say 2007 were labelled as 2011-09-06. Obviously, this totally screws up the directories. So what I did is delete them from the IMAP directory and then retransferred them, hoping the date would be correct the second time around. A very long and arduous process. I was literally at this for hours yesterday, and I'm only about half-way finished.

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, I dunno, but I couldn't see any other way of doing it.
Uh oh. I spoke too soon. Mail will discard the duplicates but Yahoo! won't. So, in my Yahoo account I have 5 copies of some of the same messages. Nice. I've now just added another several hours to this process.
     
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Sep 6, 2011, 12:22 PM
 
Wait.

Mail.app has supported IMAP since AT LEAST 10.1, ten years ago.

I'm quite sure that iTools @mac.com addresses have always been IMAP.
     
Eug
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Sep 6, 2011, 12:50 PM
 
Only since 4.4 with Yahoo! IIRC. So Y!'s restriction not Apple's I guess.

It was especially annoying because the iPhone already supported IMAP with Yahoo! long before Mail.app.

EDIT:

Yep, Mail.app 4.4, which came out with Snow Leopard 10.6.5.
( Last edited by Eug; Sep 6, 2011 at 01:09 PM. )
     
 
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