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Windows 8 vs. Mountain Lion
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Feb 16, 2013, 01:13 PM
 
I have to say... there are a lot of things I like about Windows 8. The Email program for instance is really nice. Fresh and clean and easy to use. The news aggregator App is also really nice. Many other things I like too, and some things I don't like (tiles).

As for OS X... I'm getting tired of some of its userflows and design. I think this beast needs a major overhaul.

A new design language. It looks and feels dated with wasteful features. For instance, I never use Mission Control. And after trying to turn off Notifications for everything... only to see all of them return I completely eliminated it via Terminal. There's lots of things... Apple took away RSS feeds in Mail/Safari as well.

I feel Mountain Lion is gimmicky. Let's take Notifications. I don't want to see notifications for everything! Ok, so I can customize it. But I don't want to see notifications for every, for instance, Email that comes in. What about building smart notifications... "Mark as really important and add to notification stream"... where only important stuff that you mark ends up in your notifications. Where it kinda learns from you.

It just seems really dumbed down. And the iOS style App view?

I wonder if I'm alone on this.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 02:04 PM
 
So, you're getting tired of OS X and some of its "userflows", but refuse to use the things that Apple changes because they agree with you?

Another head-scratcher.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
So, you're getting tired of OS X and some of its "userflows", but refuse to use the things that Apple changes because they agree with you?

Another head-scratcher.
I don't use things that aren't useful. Just because Apple changes something doesn't mean it's for the better or that it's useful.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I don't use things that aren't useful. Just because Apple changes something doesn't mean it's for the better or that it's useful.
You can't say that! When Apple changes something, it's always for the better, and it's always the best way to do it.

I've been debating putting Lion on my MacBook, even though I know it'll probably slow it down a bit. I agree with your assessment of both the app launchpad thing and the notifications bar, though. The notifications bar IMO is obtrusive and unnecessarily large. I like the system tray in Windows because it's small, and I can control what goes there and what I see (starting with Windows XP, you can select what icons are always available, always hidden, sometimes hidden, etc.).

The live tiles feature of Metro is very cool. I think the launchpad might be more useful if it were more dynamic, like showing actual data instead of just application icons. I don't need an overly spaced-out application icon grid on a high-resolution display. It just wastes space.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 03:38 PM
 
I don't use LaunchPad either. But the Notifications sidebar is occasionally useful, the notifications themselves are essential, and Mission Control is completely integral to how I use the computer.

I just find it amusing that Apple obviously felt the same way freudling did, and changed things accordingly. Except they appear to have been the wrong things.

Ah well, there's no pleasing everybody freudling.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I don't use LaunchPad either. But the Notifications sidebar is occasionally useful, the notifications themselves are essential, and Mission Control is completely integral to how I use the computer.

I just find it amusing that Apple obviously felt the same way freudling did, and changed things accordingly. Except they appear to have been the wrong things.

Ah well, there's no pleasing everybody freudling.
Trolling again Spheric?

Like I'm the only person who has issues with these exact things. Oh, wait, shifuimam does, and so do many others. We will voice our opinions whether you like it or not. I don't care if you worship Apple. It makes zero difference. As soon as a better piece of software comes along, I'll dump Apple, because I'm objective about software. I don't care that Apple's name is on it. Right now, OS X still is the best in the business in my opinion, but Windows 8 is very compelling.

Anyway, lots of stuff out there refuting your position that freudling is the only one complaining about bloat and questionable features in Mountain Lion.

A lot of people don't want or need some of the new features. This article isn't negative towards notifications in any way. Its just a tip for the many who would like to know how to get rid of them.

Get Rid Of Notification Center, Menu Bar Icon And All, In Mountain Lion [OS X Tips] | Cult of Mac

https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

I find that it activates itself while I am watching a video or playing a game and it is very annoying (I don't need any notifications).

https://discussions.apple.com/message/16531817#16531817

On LaunchPad:

It’s pretty, it’s flashy and it’s useless.

In-Depth OS X Lion Review Part 4: Launchpad and Mission Control | Ryan Cushley

Notification Center on iPhone:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

I also find notification center on the iPhone brutal. I have to reach all the way to the top to drag it down. It's awkward. A layered interface where you swipe or touch an icon on the bottom or something would be better. And I don't like how the information is presented. It's a bit confusing and unpleasant to look at.

And back to Mountain Lion... I rarely ever use fullscreen mode on anything. It's more in the way than not. And that's because the Desktop OS is meant to layer windows on top of each other where the user shuffles content around. I think it's slightly confused from Apple as they're dumping in iOS like experiences that don't seem to fit well in some respects.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 05:07 PM
 
See, the reason people hate you is because you're so obstinately absolute.

It's "useless", "questionable" "bloat".

Which necessarily implies that Apple is doing something wrong by implementing these features.

And people who actually USE them – happily – are obviously wrong or idiots.

You may not even actually think that way, but you invariably SAY it that way, which is why you invariably get into fights that end up getting you banned or leaving, disgusted.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Trolling again Spheric?
It's been his MO for the last week.

If you dare point out anything that doesn't indicate your undying and blind adoration for All That is Apple, you're wrong.

Just accept it and move on with your life.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 06:34 PM
 
Hahhahha you wish.

It's not quite that simple.

But hey, if it helps you sleep better: I really like iMovie, but the piece of shit is so incredibly buggy that virtually all of my projects are crashing at the drop of a hat. Which kind of sucks, because I actually need to finish some promo work, but can't.

Just because you don't see me on here whining about it and insinuating that people who like iMovie are complete idiots doesn't mean I have nothing but undying and blind adoration, you know.

Of course, you have me all figured out, and Apple does nothing but screw up, and since you've recently upgraded one of your machines to Lion and are running a bunch of hacked obsolete equipment, you're in the perfect position to judge Apple's course on Mountain Lion, right?

Did you miss the part where I said I don't use Launchpad?

Am I causing you discomfort by not bitching about it?
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Hahhahha you wish.

It's not quite that simple.

But hey, if it helps you sleep better: I really like iMovie, but the piece of shit is so incredibly buggy that virtually all of my projects are crashing at the drop of a hat. Which kind of sucks, because I actually need to finish some promo work, but can't.

Just because you don't see me on here whining about it and insinuating that people who like iMovie are complete idiots doesn't mean I have nothing but undying and blind adoration, you know.

Of course, you have me all figured out, and Apple does nothing but screw up, and since you've recently upgraded one of your machines to Lion and are running a bunch of hacked obsolete equipment, you're in the perfect position to judge Apple's course on Mountain Lion, right?

Did you miss the part where I said I don't use Launchpad?

Am I causing you discomfort by not bitching about it?
Just get lost and stop derailing threads. Posts reported.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 09:14 PM
 
Freudling - back to the original post. Did ML add any features that made it appealing over Snow Leopard?

I haven't seen anything to give cause to upgrade to L/ML aside from compatibility with newly-developed software. I'm not a fan of Metro on non-touch hardware, but Windows 8 adds some pretty cool stuff without it. Thoughts?
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 09:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
See, the reason people hate you is because you're so obstinately absolute.

It's "useless", "questionable" "bloat".

Which necessarily implies that Apple is doing something wrong by implementing these features.

And people who actually USE them – happily – are obviously wrong or idiots.

You may not even actually think that way, but you invariably SAY it that way, which is why you invariably get into fights that end up getting you banned or leaving, disgusted.

I don't hate him.

I think you get waaayyyyy too emotional about this stuff though, to unhealthy levels.

It's just a computer, relax.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 09:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Hahhahha you wish.

It's not quite that simple.

But hey, if it helps you sleep better: I really like iMovie, but the piece of booze is so incredibly buggy that virtually all of my projects are crashing at the drop of a hat. Which kind of sucks, because I actually need to finish some promo work, but can't.

Just because you don't see me on here whining about it and insinuating that people who like iMovie are complete idiots doesn't mean I have nothing but undying and blind adoration, you know.

Of course, you have me all figured out, and Apple does nothing but screw up, and since you've recently upgraded one of your machines to Lion and are running a bunch of hacked obsolete equipment, you're in the perfect position to judge Apple's course on Mountain Lion, right?

Did you miss the part where I said I don't use Launchpad?

Am I causing you discomfort by not bitching about it?

You do have a tendency to defend Apple far, far often than you don't. Would you disagree with this statement? If not, why is it unreasonable for one to suspect bias on your part?
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 09:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Freudling - back to the original post. Did ML add any features that made it appealing over Snow Leopard?

I haven't seen anything to give cause to upgrade to L/ML aside from compatibility with newly-developed software. I'm not a fan of Metro on non-touch hardware, but Windows 8 adds some pretty cool stuff without it. Thoughts?

Honestly, the best Mountain/Lion features for me have been the iCloud stuff, being able to ditch Growl (although I think that you guys have made good points about lacking customization of Notification Center), and the iMessage and Notes apps. It is telling when apps become as prominent as OS features.

I don't give a toke about Launch Pad, Mission Control, and my mind is blanking right now on what else has been added because clearly they have made little impact on my life.

Still, I don't mind Launch Pad as being an alternate way to get to your apps that might be welcome and familiar to some. Redundancy is good, this feature is just not useful for me since I'm used to customizing the dock, although it is easy to ignore it, so I don't agree with criticizing its presence. At worst it was a waste of development effort.

Part of why these features have made little impact on my life though is because I think that basically the current generation of desktop OS is about as evolved as it is going to get. I'm sure we'll see some minor improvements, maybe Linux desktops will gain some ground as innovation slows, if Google puts their weight behind them, but I'm not expecting anything major in the whole point and click world. Therefore, I think it is easy to conflate criticism of OS X with just general technological curves that have natural peaks and longevities.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 09:56 PM
 
Mission Control becomes a lot more useful with the Magic Trackpad. I never thought I would use gestures, but they became indispensable quickly. iCloud, Notes, and Reminders have been useful as well.
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 10:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Honestly, the best Mountain/Lion features for me have been the iCloud stuff, being able to ditch Growl (although I think that you guys have made good points about lacking customization of Notification Center), and the iMessage and Notes apps. It is telling when apps become as prominent as OS features.
I was kinda thinking maybe they should have implemented Growl as an OS feature, rather than a weird swipy sidebar thing. Then again, that would have resulted in yet another third-party tool being bought out by Apple and never again updated for older OSes.

I don't give a toke about Launch Pad, Mission Control, and my mind is blanking right now on what else has been added because clearly they have made little impact on my life.
I don't like what I've seen of Mission Control compared to the previous Expose. I'd need to mess around with it more to have any real opinion about it.

Part of why these features have made little impact on my life though is because I think that basically the current generation of desktop OS is about as evolved as it is going to get. I'm sure we'll see some minor improvements, maybe Linux desktops will gain some ground as innovation slows, if Google puts their weight behind them, but I'm not expecting anything major in the whole point and click world. Therefore, I think it is easy to conflate criticism of OS X with just general technological curves that have natural peaks and longevities.
Have you seen this?

Ubuntu for Android | Devices | Ubuntu

I just read about it today. I think Ubuntu Phone may be a flop because it's waaay late to the party. But this thing about running a full blown Ubuntu desktop on an Android kernel, essentially turning your phone into a desktop computer, is freaking awesome.

BF and I have been talking a lot about this recently. We've come to the conclusion that tablets as they are today are a technological band-aid, a sort of stop-gap to carry us through to the Next Big Thing in mobile devices - turning a single device (your phone) into everything: a phone, a tablet, and a computer. Something like the Fujitsu LifeBook tablet, except only one device is the brains and everything else just extends its functionality.

That way, instead of buying a new laptop every three years, you get your free-with-contract new phone and plug it into your existing "laptop" dock. Bam - brand new computer. It'll be a long, long time before this kind of stuff can replace computers for enthusiasts and geeks, but that's okay. For the masses, it'll be pretty damn awesome. Mobile OSes have a way to go before they can replicate full desktop functionality, but this Ubuntu for Android idea might be what we've been waiting for...
     
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Feb 16, 2013, 11:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Have you seen this?

Ubuntu for Android | Devices | Ubuntu

I just read about it today. I think Ubuntu Phone may be a flop because it's waaay late to the party. But this thing about running a full blown Ubuntu desktop on an Android kernel, essentially turning your phone into a desktop computer, is freaking awesome.

BF and I have been talking a lot about this recently. We've come to the conclusion that tablets as they are today are a technological band-aid, a sort of stop-gap to carry us through to the Next Big Thing in mobile devices - turning a single device (your phone) into everything: a phone, a tablet, and a computer. Something like the Fujitsu LifeBook tablet, except only one device is the brains and everything else just extends its functionality.

That way, instead of buying a new laptop every three years, you get your free-with-contract new phone and plug it into your existing "laptop" dock. Bam - brand new computer. It'll be a long, long time before this kind of stuff can replace computers for enthusiasts and geeks, but that's okay. For the masses, it'll be pretty damn awesome. Mobile OSes have a way to go before they can replicate full desktop functionality, but this Ubuntu for Android idea might be what we've been waiting for...


I haven't seen that. I'm not really a big mobile person. I guess maybe the fact that I work out of my house is a part of this, but my interests generally reside around technology that makes me money. I have made mobile websites, but I haven't gotten into native mobile app development, and mostly seem like I'm always the last person to hear about some neat new mobile app. So, you'll have to hold my hand through cluing me in to the Android world, but I'm definitely interested. I can see my next phone and/or tablet being an Android, we'll see...

The phone docking thing is indeed very interesting. For a lot of people the hardware in their phone supplemented possibly by cloud storage is probably all they need. It seems like the thing that needs to be figured out here is the same thing that everybody needs to figure out, and that is whether it makes sense to put all of the large desktop point and click and the small screen touch stuff into the same OS, or separate them into two separate OSes.

This very thing is what Spheric and I were discussing in another thread, although I don't think he ever understood me.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 02:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Freudling - back to the original post. Did ML add any features that made it appealing over Snow Leopard?

I haven't seen anything to give cause to upgrade to L/ML aside from compatibility with newly-developed software. I'm not a fan of Metro on non-touch hardware, but Windows 8 adds some pretty cool stuff without it. Thoughts?
I have to say, the Email App in Windows 8 is fantastic. So nice. It makes Apple's Mac Mail App look terribly dated. And there lies the rub. I can see how dated Apple's interface in OS X and with stock Apps is starting to become in the face of advances in UI design and userflows with mobile operating systems and now Windows 8... which itself takes a lot from Windows Phone.

The PC with Windows 8 I'm really liking is the Sony Vaio Tap 20. I keep going to the store on the weekends every once in a while and playing with it. I actually like it that much.

If you have a chance to try the Sony Vaio Tap 20, I'd say this machine is the ultimate, flagship experience for Windows 8... and that's because it's a large screened all-in-one PC that also serves as a multi-touch tablet with 3.5 hours of battery life when unplugged. I keep going back to try it! It's like... it keeps calling out to me.

By the way, the news aggregator App in Windows 8 is also unreal: especially on the Vaio Tap 20. Such a nice experience. It blows away anything Apple has done with RSS and news aggregation. Seeing is believing. When you walk away form this and come back to OS X, I'm willing to bet you'll start seeing my point about aspects of OS X looking dated, and more and more by the day. To anyone reading this: try the Mail App in Windows 8 and news aggregator App.

There're are obviously things I don't like about Windows 8, like the tiles: not too sold on them for a desktop. And the old Windows in the background is kinda dumb: they need file systems and what not to be much more seemless with Metro... but overall Windows 8 has some amazing UI design and userflows... along with incredible Apps... that, after using something like the Sony Vaio Tap 20... you realize just how far away Apple is from anything like that experience. And that experience is pretty inspirational.

More on the Tap 20: it's a PC... large screen all in one. Yet, it's a battery powered large multi-touch tablet. The way I was using it was just tilting the screen back and pull it closer to my arms when I wanted to use it like a large tablet on my desk. I never change my position at my desk. The screen just comes closer to me and I tilt it back and go for it. The Apps are just working: ready for mouse or multi-touch input. When I want to get back to keyboard and mouse, I swivel it away and go for it. Switching modes is like a few second thing. I feel like I'm at National Defence headquarters thwarting nuclear missles or something. Pretty liberating guys.

And the thing can easily be unplugged, picked up, and moved anywhere in our outside the house. It's going to run for 3.5 hours. So if you want to cuddle up to your squeeze and watch a movie on Netflix in the bedroom, just grab it, swivel out the built in stand, and throw it on the bed or end table. Now you've got a 20" screened portable media player.

The Vaio Tap 20, Sony's 20-inch touch-screen all-in-one - YouTube
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 02:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Honestly, the best Mountain/Lion features for me have been the iCloud stuff, being able to ditch Growl (although I think that you guys have made good points about lacking customization of Notification Center), and the iMessage and Notes apps. It is telling when apps become as prominent as OS features.

I don't give a toke about Launch Pad, Mission Control, and my mind is blanking right now on what else has been added because clearly they have made little impact on my life.

Still, I don't mind Launch Pad as being an alternate way to get to your apps that might be welcome and familiar to some. Redundancy is good, this feature is just not useful for me since I'm used to customizing the dock, although it is easy to ignore it, so I don't agree with criticizing its presence. At worst it was a waste of development effort.

Part of why these features have made little impact on my life though is because I think that basically the current generation of desktop OS is about as evolved as it is going to get. I'm sure we'll see some minor improvements, maybe Linux desktops will gain some ground as innovation slows, if Google puts their weight behind them, but I'm not expecting anything major in the whole point and click world. Therefore, I think it is easy to conflate criticism of OS X with just general technological curves that have natural peaks and longevities.
You know Bess... to a point you're bang on about desktop OSes hitting a sort of peak. As Jobs predicted, these are the trucks now. Mobile are the efficient cars for everyday use.

Having said that, PCs are still important to many people's lives, including consumers. They're not going anywhere. So that doesn't mean trucks have to stay boring and not innovative.

What I see that needs to happen is we need to enter into an era of "smart software". We've been waiting for this since forever. I brought it up before. Notification Center is really stupid. Why do I want to be notified about every Email! That's as good as it can do!

The whole approach to an operating system needs to change. When you think of smart software, you think of something that learns from you and adapts... anticipates what you want... and gives you what you want, at the right times... a servant that's making your life easier. Right now, desktop operating systems are very archaic and dumb because of the manual work involved to do anything.

It's still based completely on the original desktop metaphor invented at PARC in the 70s! This speaks volumes of how good this metaphor is but how little it's evolved. Yes, it has evolved (e.g., search)... but at the same time it hasn't. I feel like it's a layer of new innovation with a bunch of anachronistic layers smothering the innovation.

Radical thinking with the smart software approach is required to rewrite and reinvent the desktop OS. Remember, it's still all about the trucks. The heavy lifting. But things can be much smoother.

Imagine notification center smarter? Here's a quick example: every person you mark as VIP in Mail... only Emails from them will show in Notification Center. Just a hypothetical of something that seems much "smarter" and that fits in with your world and what you would potentially want... better. Notification Center might also start showing you mail notifications only from the top 10% of people you're really engaged with in Email at any given time. On and on. There're tons of things you can do to make so many aspects of a desktop OS smarter.

And you know what? The interface completely changes... for the better! So many of the little buttons and settings and crap... and noise... just get abstracted away.

Overall, it's a major rewrite, rethink, and redesign.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Ubuntu for Android | Devices | Ubuntu

I just read about it today. I think Ubuntu Phone may be a flop because it's waaay late to the party.
Ubuntu Phone will be completely irrelevant, the reason being that neither operators nor phone manufacturers want an open OS on their phones. (To me, Android is open to handset manufacturers and operators, but not to users.) Perhaps some geeks will put in on their Android phones just like they would with Linux on their PCs, but akin to the latter, this will be a tiny, tiny niche market. Moreover, it's way too late to the party as you correctly point out.
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
But this thing about running a full blown Ubuntu desktop on an Android kernel, essentially turning your phone into a desktop computer, is freaking awesome.

BF and I have been talking a lot about this recently. We've come to the conclusion that tablets as they are today are a technological band-aid, a sort of stop-gap to carry us through to the Next Big Thing in mobile devices - turning a single device (your phone) into everything: a phone, a tablet, and a computer. Something like the Fujitsu LifeBook tablet, except only one device is the brains and everything else just extends its functionality.
Technologically, that's (almost) completely doable with today's technology, Microsoft's Surface which marries a tablet with a PC is proof of that. But, and this is a huge but, the problem here is software: a user interface for a phone with a 4" screen is very different from that of a 10" tablet which is different from a more traditional PC software interface with a mouse/trackpad. This is where Surface fails utterly, and this will be the problem that needs to be solved.

I hope that one day we'll be there, too, that'd be awesome, but I suppose it'll still take time. I don't have much hope that Android/Samsung will contribute much in this direction due to the nature of the market and Samsung's corporate philosophy. But I agree that we're moving in this direction already and that it'd be really cool if this came to fruition.

However, my thinking is that it'll come through cloud integration than having one device to rule them all. I reckon that computing power will be very cheap compared to the cost of the screen. So instead of »plugging in your phone« to get a desktop computer, I think you will be able to resume your work on a document on another device.
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Feb 17, 2013, 07:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Freudling - back to the original post. Did ML add any features that made it appealing over Snow Leopard?
To me, one such feature is the support for multiple Time Machine backup drives out of the box, two more are iCloud integration and notifications. I don't use Launchpad and since it is invisible to me, I don't care whether it's there or not. Since you can combine notifications with Growl, you can customize notifications to your heart's content. I also love gestures, so much so that I replaced my perfectly good Magic Mouse with a Magic Trackpad. I'm still trying to get fluent in Mission Control, I had a very simple two-spaces setup before, so I'm still adapting.

I don't quite understand freudling's praise of Windows 8's mail client: while it looks sleek, its functionality is rather limited, you don't even have a unified inbox and the exchange support is rather limited. Other than that, it looks very much like iPad's mail or Mountain Lion's Mail (which is not a bad thing).
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Feb 17, 2013, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
To me, one such feature is the support for multiple Time Machine backup drives out of the box, two more are iCloud integration and notifications. I don't use Launchpad and since it is invisible to me, I don't care whether it's there or not. Since you can combine notifications with Growl, you can customize notifications to your heart's content. I also love gestures, so much so that I replaced my perfectly good Magic Mouse with a Magic Trackpad. I'm still trying to get fluent in Mission Control, I had a very simple two-spaces setup before, so I'm still adapting.

I don't quite understand freudling's praise of Windows 8's mail client: while it looks sleek, its functionality is rather limited, you don't even have a unified inbox and the exchange support is rather limited. Other than that, it looks very much like iPad's mail or Mountain Lion's Mail (which is not a bad thing).
First, Windows 8 Mail looks nothing like iPad's or Mountain Lion's Mail. Not sure what you're smoking.

http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystem...0_31159CB1.png

Second, why does the Surface "fail utterly" when it comes to user interface? The interface is perfectly suited for a tablet because its using Windows 8 with tiles, the exact same large hit areas on Windows smartphones. And there are Apps designed just for the Surface.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Technologically, that's (almost) completely doable with today's technology, Microsoft's Surface which marries a tablet with a PC is proof of that. But, and this is a huge but, the problem here is software: a user interface for a phone with a 4" screen is very different from that of a 10" tablet which is different from a more traditional PC software interface with a mouse/trackpad. This is where Surface fails utterly, and this will be the problem that needs to be solved.
The whole point of Ubuntu for Android is that it is a large display, high-resolution, standard Ubuntu desktop environment running on your phone's Android Linux kernel. So it brings the hardware capabilities of your phone to a desktop form factor.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
To me, one such feature is the support for multiple Time Machine backup drives out of the box...
Didn't know about that feature. I'm glad they finally added it. The ability to only backup to a single location always drove me batty. I had a guy come in once with a MacBook with a failed hard drive...and an external USB Time Machine volume that had miraculously (or not-so-miraculously) failed at the same time. He lost all his data.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 04:22 PM
 
Yes, the addition of multiple backups through Time Machine is extremely welcome. There were scripts to allow this previously, but that guaranteed that normal users wouldn't.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The phone docking thing is indeed very interesting. For a lot of people the hardware in their phone supplemented possibly by cloud storage is probably all they need. It seems like the thing that needs to be figured out here is the same thing that everybody needs to figure out, and that is whether it makes sense to put all of the large desktop point and click and the small screen touch stuff into the same OS, or separate them into two separate OSes.

This very thing is what Spheric and I were discussing in another thread, although I don't think he ever understood me.
I did not quite.

If I get this right, the "convergence" here is in the hardware core, with different interfaces becoming available for different hardware usage contexts. We're not really talking about a single device, but more of a portable data/OS add-on that is capable of supplying an interface appropriate to the hardware it's connected to.

Probably not so useful for the user who owns a traditional computer for the horsepower.

Intriguing certainly for the type of desktop user who'd be amply served by mobile computing power.

i have to wonder whether specialized hardware for this usage scenario has any future, though: is there any reason to believe that an office PC user's needs won't be completely addressed by "real" tablet apps (not desktop apps shoehorned onto a bastard-child hybrid portmanteau the way the "touch" Office is)?

I'm imagining current-day Airplay mirroring/extension as a preview for how this might pan out in the future.

Have an AppleTV and a keyboard sitting there, and start working away on the same iPad you use on the road. Why the need for another disparate interface? Unless you count the ability to display on the secondary monitor as an additional interface (the way many games work today). Hmmmmmmmmm....
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Feb 17, 2013 at 04:38 PM. )
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I did not quite.

If I get this right, the "convergence" here is in the device, with different interfaces becoming available for different hardware usage contexts. We're not really talking about a single device, but more of a portable data/OS add-on that is capable of supplying an interface appropriate to the hardware it's connected to.

Intriguing certainly for the type of desktop user who'd be amply served by mobile computing power.
Probably not so useful for the user who owns a traditional computer for the horsepower.

I have to wonder whether specialized hardware for the former has any future, though: is there any reason to believe that an office PC user's needs won't be completely addressed by "real" tablet apps (not desktop apps shoehorned onto a bastard-child hybrid portmanteau the way the "touch" Office is)?

I think so. An Office PC user may prefer having a large display. The two main variables here, in my mind, are screen size and input method.

In what I was trying to get at in the other thread I probably should have used the word "consolidate" in a project management sense more than convergence. By project management I mean this from Apple's perspective - i.e. their development teams. This may seem entirely irrelevant to us, but I would submit that having the same guys and girls working on the phone stuff and the desktop stuff would provide better QA and generally produce the best results.

Following along with this, my thinking was that at some point it might make sense for iOS and OS X to be effectively the same project in terms of development effort. What is shipped could be marketed as two separate projects, but underneath the hood it may make sense for the product to be the same. It could be that in iOS the point and click stuff lies dormant, and vice versa for OS X, or a minimal install is created with the rest downloaded or bundled with the device, I don't know. The object here though would be to have a single development team making what internally would be conceptualized as one product, just the same way that while a website may have a mobile and large site component, internally it's conceptualized as a single website with two different worlds to it.

I'm making a ridiculous amount of assumptions here in thinking about how Apple's development teams work or might work best, but I really do think that in order to have this conversation about how to straddle both worlds we have to look at this from the bottom up, not the top down.

I also tend to believe that right now the two development teams are separate, because features like Launch Pad seem mostly like low hanging fruit type ports to appeal to those more familiar with iOS than OS X than they are really structuring OS X to bring the iOS and OS X worlds closer together internally within Apple.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
First, Windows 8 Mail looks nothing like iPad's or Mountain Lion's Mail. Not sure what you're smoking.
Microsoft's Mail uses the same three-pane layout Apple's OS X mail uses (unless you hide the mail boxes). Of course, MS' version is much more austere and uses the Metro design language, but that doesn't change that the basic idea (three panes) is the same.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Second, why does the Surface "fail utterly" when it comes to user interface?
Surface promises to combine the advantages of a tablet with those of a pc. But instead of offering a user interface dependent on the usage mode (tablet or pc), you are forced to use a touch first interface with a mouse/trackpad -- unless you're using Office in tablet mode, then you're using an app designed for a pixel-perfect pointer. So Surface does not deliver on its promise.
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Feb 17, 2013, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Microsoft's Mail uses the same three-pane layout Apple's OS X mail uses (unless you hide the mail boxes). Of course, MS' version is much more austere and uses the Metro design language, but that doesn't change that the basic idea (three panes) is the same.

Surface promises to combine the advantages of a tablet with those of a pc. But instead of offering a user interface dependent on the usage mode (tablet or pc), you are forced to use a touch first interface with a mouse/trackpad -- unless you're using Office in tablet mode, then you're using an app designed for a pixel-perfect pointer. So Surface does not deliver on its promise.
Oreo making sense as usual...
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 05:31 PM
 
Besson, once again, what you describe is exactly the opposite of what has been happening.

OS X and iOS were the SAME platform, and they were split off.

The way Apple has worked for a while, small teams rotate through projects based on need. I'm sure the guys responsible for iWork on iOS are the same people who built iWork for Macintosh.

The tightening release schedules for OS X would indicate that Apple is moving AWAY from this, as they have hired extra crew dedicated to the different OSen. I don't see how else this could be explained.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 05:54 PM
 
iCloud features are pretty killer in ML, as is he extension into reminders and notes etc. Mail is hmmm...OK, ical is still rank, contacts is sub par, but the notifications are the shining piece of crap on the table. at what point did anyone at Apple feel the abrasive, persistent, and unswitchoffable notifications were a good thing. especially the Software update one.

Windows 8 is doing plenty right, the Metro interface has some good stuff, but peel apart the curtains and it's still very much Windows 7 under the hood. You may hate a lot of ML, but Apple engineer their OS's right down.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 07:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Besson, once again, what you describe is exactly the opposite of what has been happening.

OS X and iOS were the SAME platform, and they were split off.

The way Apple has worked for a while, small teams rotate through projects based on need. I'm sure the guys responsible for iWork on iOS are the same people who built iWork for Macintosh.

The tightening release schedules for OS X would indicate that Apple is moving AWAY from this, as they have hired extra crew dedicated to the different OSen. I don't see how else this could be explained.

I know they were split off at the very beginning, but that is fairly inconsequential to us just as OS X being split off from NeXt is now pretty inconsequential as far as how this impacts us today. It doesn't mean that because of this historical lineage that this must remain in perpetuity. A lot of things have changed since the original iPhone.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 07:45 PM
 
I have yet to meet a single loyal PC user (face to face) who likes Windows 8. In fact, I have yet to meet a Mac hater who likes Windows 8, and they all think that Metro is useless.


But c'mon, Microsoft, it's 2013, why do you still have 8-bit file path restrictions?
Some of us use long file names and a lot of folders to stay organized!
Even with Windows 8, I can't possibly organize my folders from my Mac onto a PC because Windows doesn't like the file path, so I would have to create shortcuts to shortcuts all over the place and keep them updated.
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Feb 17, 2013, 09:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Besson, once again, what you describe is exactly the opposite of what has been happening.

OS X and iOS were the SAME platform, and they were split off.

The way Apple has worked for a while, small teams rotate through projects based on need. I'm sure the guys responsible for iWork on iOS are the same people who built iWork for Macintosh.

The tightening release schedules for OS X would indicate that Apple is moving AWAY from this, as they have hired extra crew dedicated to the different OSen. I don't see how else this could be explained.
Would you stop attacking people? Your self-righteous, condescending attitude is always present in your posts.

You are right about something: the people who did iWork for the Mac are in fact the same ones who did the iOS version.

However, iOS and OS X were never the same platform. iOS, as has been documented, was being R&D'd back in the early 2000s. When Jobs saw the intertial scroll, he realized they had to make a phone... and that the R&D they had been doing with multitouch was validated. In other words, the two operating systems started and evolved much differently.

In the end though, they're based on the same BSD Unix environment so are part of the same platform.

Evidence to the contrary about splitting off. Mountain Lion got a lot of iOS treatment, including iOS scroll bars and scroll behvaiour, LaunchPad, Reminders, and Notification Center to mention a few. Suggesting major overlap between the two operating systems.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
I have yet to meet a single loyal PC user (face to face) who likes Windows 8. In fact, I have yet to meet a Mac hater who likes Windows 8, and they all think that Metro is useless.


But c'mon, Microsoft, it's 2013, why do you still have 8-bit file path restrictions?
Some of us use long file names and a lot of folders to stay organized!
Even with Windows 8, I can't possibly organize my folders from my Mac onto a PC because Windows doesn't like the file path, so I would have to create shortcuts to shortcuts all over the place and keep them updated.
You know, everybody says MS is dead and Windows 8 sucks... yet MS keeps rolling in massive revenues and profits. I know many people who really like Windows 8.

And the whole PC declining thing... In 2012, less PCs were sold worldwide than in 2011. By a factor of 1.8% less in terms of number of units.

Then people link it to Windows 8... being the cause... but then... when you look at mobile phones sales worldwide, they're down year-over-year as well!

So I don't buy that it's just Windows 8 that has caused a decline in the PC industry. 2012 saw declines in different areas of tech and that's because we may have peaked in those areas. But with innovation, categories can get ressurected, etc.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
You know, everybody says MS is dead and Windows 8 sucks... yet MS keeps rolling in massive revenues and profits. I know many people who really like Windows 8.

And the whole PC declining thing... In 2012, less PCs were sold worldwide than in 2011. By a factor of 1.8% less in terms of number of units.

Then people link it to Windows 8... being the cause... but then... when you look at mobile phones sales worldwide, they're down year-over-year as well!

So I don't buy that it's just Windows 8 that has caused a decline in the PC industry. 2012 saw declines in different areas of tech and that's because we may have peaked in those areas. But with innovation, categories can get ressurected, etc.

The massive profits are not a surprise though, Windows and Office are cash cows and have been for years (I'm not sure where XBox fits in). The question is whether they will continue to be cash cows, and for how long. Usually one does not bet on companies that only have cash cows which are seen as possibly threatened. I think Microsoft's main threat is irrelevance.
     
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Feb 17, 2013, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Would you stop attacking people? Your self-righteous, condescending attitude is always present in your posts.

If he wants to be condescending and self-righteous let him, it doesn't bother me. It's his emotional vulnerability, not mine. I don't become unhinged when having conversations about computers.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 12:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If he wants to be condescending and self-righteous let him, it doesn't bother me. It's his emotional vulnerability, not mine. I don't become unhinged when having conversations about computers.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 01:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post


You asked what somebody was smoking, which suggests to me that this subject matter makes you emotional too.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 03:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You asked what somebody was smoking, which suggests to me that this subject matter makes you emotional too.
Not really. I find it hilarious that someone would say that Windows 8 Mail looks like the iPad Mail App.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 04:02 AM
 
I think he explained his point rather well. I was wondering whether your response ("making sense as usual") was sarcasm.

Since we now know that it was, can we at least note for reference that you launched an attack on OreoCookie in this thread, despite the fact that he most certainly was NOT being antagonistic?
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 04:41 AM
 
I too am a bit apprehensive about NC (going to setup my iMac today)
I've sent ideas/requests to Apple, I'm not sure if any of you have tried the link here notification center | Automated Workflows, LLC

It tries to give the user control NC via a "Do Not Disturb" setting.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 04:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
However, iOS and OS X were never the same platform. iOS, as has been documented, was being R&D'd back in the early 2000s.
iOS is a fork off of OS X directly, they not only share the Darwin core, but also many of OS X APIs and other fundamentals. Apple did have several competing OS projects for what would become the iPhone and among other people, Tony Fadell favored Linux.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Suggesting major overlap between the two operating systems.
… because iOS is a fork of OS X. Due to the close relationship, cross-pollination is quite easy.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
So I don't buy that it's just Windows 8 that has caused a decline in the PC industry. 2012 saw declines in different areas of tech and that's because we may have peaked in those areas. But with innovation, categories can get ressurected, etc.
I think you're closing your eyes towards the possibility that also good and innovative products can be utter failure on the market. webOS and Windows Phone come to mind here, both products which have garnered critical acclaim by reviewers and are respected by the Mac community at large. My brother works in IT, and let's just say, Windows 8 is not well-received by people. For most it's merely the fact that it's so very different from Windows 7.
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Feb 18, 2013, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Not really. I find it hilarious that someone would say that Windows 8 Mail looks like the iPad Mail App.
Would you concede that it was kind of rude?
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 04:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
iOS is a fork off of OS X directly, they not only share the Darwin core, but also many of OS X APIs and other fundamentals. Apple did have several competing OS projects for what would become the iPhone and among other people, Tony Fadell favored Linux.

… because iOS is a fork of OS X. Due to the close relationship, cross-pollination is quite easy.

I think you're closing your eyes towards the possibility that also good and innovative products can be utter failure on the market. webOS and Windows Phone come to mind here, both products which have garnered critical acclaim by reviewers and are respected by the Mac community at large. My brother works in IT, and let's just say, Windows 8 is not well-received by people. For most it's merely the fact that it's so very different from Windows 7.

Do you think that there will be a day when it makes sense for the two forks to converge?
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 05:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Freudling - back to the original post. Did ML add any features that made it appealing over Snow Leopard?
The ability to make Mission Control behave like the old Exposé all windows mode, together with additions Lion made, make Mountain Lion the better OS. I would pick SL over Lion, though.

I haven't seen anything to give cause to upgrade to L/ML aside from compatibility with newly-developed software.
There is a reason some newly developed software require Lion. Apple finally added the long-overdue support for Open GL 3, which is used by more apps than you'd think.
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Feb 18, 2013, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The massive profits are not a surprise though, Windows and Office are cash cows and have been for years (I'm not sure where XBox fits in). The question is whether they will continue to be cash cows, and for how long. Usually one does not bet on companies that only have cash cows which are seen as possibly threatened. I think Microsoft's main threat is irrelevance.
Office is the mother of all cash cows. Client Windows is about break-even over a development cycle, because the development and testing costs are huge. Server & Tools (server Windows) makes a good steady profit. Xbox has made money some quarters, but is billions in the hole from the disaster that was the first Xbox, development of the 360 and the RROD warranty replacements. It is doubtful whether the 360 will be profitable over its lifecycle. Everything else in MS is bleeding money.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 05:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you think that there will be a day when it makes sense for the two forks to converge?
Am I being really dense by still not understanding this question?

The only parts that are separate are those parts specific to the different interfaces/platforms. Everything else is already (still) a common base.

This would hold true even if you had your "convergence" device, which would show different interfaces depending upon the hardware it were connected to. No real difference from what is already the case, except that the differing bits are currently installed only on one platform.

As I've mentioned, development of software is already largely by single teams across the platforms (as for iWork, and probably iMovie and iPhoto as well), with common code shared as much as possible, but disparate interfaces developed for the differing platforms.

If the two DEVICE platforms merge, the software development structure would not change, as the requirements would be not much different from today.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 05:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you think that there will be a day when it makes sense for the two forks to converge?
No, I don't think this is what Apple has in mind at all, quite the contrary. Personally, I think this is the right strategy, too: two use modi, two different sets of strengths and weaknesses to optimize for, etc. I think the vision of being able to »move work« from a phone to a tablet to a desk computer (whatever that may look like) will not be achieved with »one devices that rules them all« and »one operating system/user interface«, but several.

Hence my criticism of Office on Surface: Microsoft touts the value of having »real« Office on Surface, and hence, you can work on Surface as opposed to the iPad. But it fails in my opinion on the execution: if you want to use Surface as a tablet, the Office apps are inaccessible, because the user interface is made for pixel-perfect pointing devices. The only way I think you can remedy that is to make two UIs for Office, one for touch, one for the mouse. Apple deliberately doesn't attempt to do that.

(Just to be clear: the touch part of Windows 8 (formerly known as Metro) looks very nice, live tiles are intriguing and allow for many creative uses. I give MS kudos for going in a completely different direction, and I think they'd add more to the market than Android whose UI closely resembles that of iOS.)
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Feb 18, 2013, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
iOS is a fork off of OS X directly, they not only share the Darwin core, but also many of OS X APIs and other fundamentals. Apple did have several competing OS projects for what would become the iPhone and among other people, Tony Fadell favored Linux.

… because iOS is a fork of OS X. Due to the close relationship, cross-pollination is quite easy.

I think you're closing your eyes towards the possibility that also good and innovative products can be utter failure on the market. webOS and Windows Phone come to mind here, both products which have garnered critical acclaim by reviewers and are respected by the Mac community at large. My brother works in IT, and let's just say, Windows 8 is not well-received by people. For most it's merely the fact that it's so very different from Windows 7.
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Feb 18, 2013, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you think that there will be a day when it makes sense for the two forks to converge?
This is what MS has done. They converged Windows Phone 8 with Windows. Granted, the phone version has differences with no point and click layers... but they are virtually one and the same, from the homescreen being tiles, to the core Apps like Mail, News, weather, and others that are all designed for multi-touch.

It's a strength and a weakness.

I really don't know where OS X goes from here... but it needs a total upgrade. Aqua is 12 years old and the Finder is about 30 years old.
     
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Feb 18, 2013, 02:33 PM
 
MS made one operating system because they're the market leader on the desktop and would like to extend this, not because it makes particularly good sense. If Apple were to "unify" their OSes, one way to do that would be to let the run the same software. You can do that already, in a way - the iOS simulator on the Mac. That's about how well it would work.
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