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Outlook and Safari crash at launch
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Jul 4, 2014, 07:21 PM
 
Last night, at last email check, I noticed a warning from Outlook which said "Outlook must quit due to an error...." and I've been unable to relaunch it. This morning Safari Unexpectedly Quit, and won't launch either. Steps taken so far:

Restart in Safe Boot
Restart from backup and rebuild volumes w/ DiskWarrior. Just the usual minor repairs.
Repaired disk in DU, no probs.
Restart in last night's b/u disk, same prob. So it has propagated, and not the ssd's fault
And this is really weird, booted from a week old b/u disk, and Safari crashed their also. I did not try Outlook b/c of M$'s limited license validation nonsense, every cloned disk they want your license, and there's a limit.

I know that there is some tie in between Safari and Office, b/c whenever I have to update the latter, Safari has to be quit.

Below is the Safari log, Console only has an Outlook log from a week ago.

Process: Safari [334]
Path: /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/Safari
Identifier: com.apple.Safari
Version: 7.0.5 (9537.77.4)
Build Info: WebBrowser-7537077004000000~4
Code Type: X86-64 (Native)
Parent Process: launchd [235]
Responsible: Safari [334]
User ID: 503

Date/Time: 2014-07-04 14:15:58.911 -0600
OS Version: Mac OS X 10.9.4 (13E28)
Report Version: 11
Anonymous UUID: DCF7B89E-E109-0E81-1DB1-AA560A2C7907


Crashed Thread: 6

Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)
Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x000000010abd1420

External Modification Warnings:
Thread creation by external task.

VM Regions Near 0x10abd1420:
-->
__TEXT 000000010f9c7000-000000010f9c8000 [ 4K] r-x/rwx SM=COW /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/Safari

Thread 0:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
0 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128c1e6b search_method_list(method_list_t const*, objc_selector*) + 170
1 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128c0425 getMethodNoSuper_nolock(objc_class*, objc_selector*) + 49
2 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128c033d lookUpImpOrForward + 403
3 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128b3169 objc_msgSend + 233
4 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128cad9f -[NSObject isKindOfClass:] + 22
5 com.apple.Foundation 0x00000001123d4fa6 -[NSUserNotificationCenter init] + 51
6 com.apple.Foundation 0x00000001123d4eb4 -[_NSConcreteUserNotificationCenter _initWithBundleIdentifier:type:] + 52
7 com.apple.Foundation 0x00000001123d4e61 __57+[NSUserNotificationCenter defaultUserNotificationCenter]_block_invoke + 97
8 com.apple.Foundation 0x00000001123d4d23 _performInCenterLock + 48
9 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fcf8e92 __60+[UserNotificationDelegate registerUserNotificationDelegate]_block_invoke + 74
10 libdispatch.dylib 0x000000011646628d _dispatch_client_callout + 8
11 libdispatch.dylib 0x00000001164661fc dispatch_once_f + 79
12 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fcb817e Safari::UserNotificationController::UserNotificati onController() + 214
13 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fcb8098 Safari::UserNotificationController::shared() + 26
14 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fa8adda Safari::BrowserUserNotificationProvider::addUserNo tificationManager(Safari::WK::UserNotificationMana ger const&) + 14
15 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fcbdab2 Safari::WK::addUserNotificationManager(OpaqueWKNot ificationManager const*, void const*) + 45
16 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fcbd5ba Safari::WK::UserNotificationManager::setProvider(S afari::WK::UserNotificationProvider*) + 54
17 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010f9e5694 Safari::Application::initializeProcessContext(bool ) + 888
18 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010f9db7e3 +[AppController initialize] + 310
19 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128b4371 _class_initialize + 645
20 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128c0254 lookUpImpOrForward + 170
21 libobjc.A.dylib 0x00000001128b3169 objc_msgSend + 233
22 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e215dd -[NSCustomObject nibInstantiate] + 89
23 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e21520 -[NSIBObjectData instantiateObject:] + 309
24 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e20815 -[NSIBObjectData nibInstantiateWithOwner:topLevelObjects:] + 413
25 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e155ce loadNib + 327
26 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e14b6c +[NSBundle(NSNibLoading) _loadNibFile:nameTable:withZone:ownerBundle:] + 288
27 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e1495c -[NSBundle(NSNibLoading) loadNibNamed:owner:topLevelObjects:] + 197
28 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e1474b +[NSBundle(NSNibLoading) loadNibNamed:owner:] + 357
29 com.apple.AppKit 0x0000000113e10597 NSApplicationMain + 448
30 com.apple.Safari.framework 0x000000010fc00c8d SafariMain + 267
31 libdyld.dylib 0x00000001164a15fd start + 1

Thread 1:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.WebKit.StorageManager
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x0000000116640962 pread + 10
1 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b881d4 unixRead + 100
2 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bae5ee readDbPage + 478
3 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bad18d sqlite3PagerAcquire + 349
4 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110c5544e btreeGetPage + 30
5 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110c553f2 getAndInitPage + 66
6 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bd991d moveToChild + 45
7 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110c55842 moveToLeftmost + 114
8 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bdb5cf sqlite3BtreeNext + 367
9 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bdb64e sqlite3BtreeNext + 494
10 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bc7976 sqlite3VdbeExec + 1318
11 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bc640a sqlite3_step + 666
12 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab8109 WebCore::SQLiteStatement::step() + 73
13 com.apple.WebKit2 0x0000000111fa1ac1 WebKit::LocalStorageDatabaseTracker::importOriginI dentifiers() + 235
14 com.apple.WebKit2 0x0000000111fa1794 ___ZN9WorkQueue8dispatchERKN3WTF8FunctionIFvvEEE_b lock_invoke + 20
15 libdispatch.dylib 0x00000001164691bb _dispatch_call_block_and_release + 12
16 libdispatch.dylib 0x000000011646628d _dispatch_client_callout + 8
17 libdispatch.dylib 0x0000000116468673 _dispatch_queue_drain + 451
18 libdispatch.dylib 0x00000001164699c1 _dispatch_queue_invoke + 110
19 libdispatch.dylib 0x0000000116467f87 _dispatch_root_queue_drain + 75
20 libdispatch.dylib 0x0000000116469177 _dispatch_worker_thread2 + 40
21 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x0000000116748ef8 _pthread_wqthread + 314
22 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x000000011674bfb9 start_wqthread + 13

Thread 2:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.libdispatch-manager
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x0000000116640662 kevent64 + 10
1 libdispatch.dylib 0x0000000116468421 _dispatch_mgr_invoke + 239
2 libdispatch.dylib 0x0000000116468136 _dispatch_mgr_thread + 52

Thread 3:
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x000000011663fe6a __workq_kernreturn + 10
1 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x0000000116748f08 _pthread_wqthread + 330
2 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x000000011674bfb9 start_wqthread + 13

Thread 4:
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x000000011663fe6a __workq_kernreturn + 10
1 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x0000000116748f08 _pthread_wqthread + 330
2 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x000000011674bfb9 start_wqthread + 13

Thread 5:: WebCore: IconDatabase
0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x000000011663feca access + 10
1 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110baaa59 unixAccess + 57
2 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110baa491 sqlite3PagerSharedLock + 1505
3 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110ba9636 sqlite3BtreeBeginTrans + 390
4 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110ba38d9 sqlite3InitOne + 569
5 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110ba361e sqlite3Init + 110
6 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bddefc sqlite3LocateTable + 60
7 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bb5a06 selectExpander + 326
8 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bb573c sqlite3WalkSelect + 76
9 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110bafe3d sqlite3Select + 509
10 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b8d77e yy_reduce + 5054
11 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b8c326 sqlite3Parser + 278
12 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b8b0e1 sqlite3RunParser + 305
13 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b8a97e sqlite3Prepare + 734
14 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110b8a57f sqlite3LockAndPrepare + 191
15 libsqlite3.dylib 0x0000000110c04387 sqlite3Prepare16 + 391
16 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab773a WebCore::SQLiteStatement:repare() + 122
17 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab8062 WebCore::SQLiteStatement:repareAndStep() + 18
18 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab801e WebCore::SQLiteStatement::getColumnInt(int) + 30
19 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab7d6f WebCore::databaseVersionNumber(WebCore::SQLiteData base&) + 63
20 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab7ad0 WebCore::IconDatabase:erformOpenInitialization() + 288
21 com.apple.WebCore 0x0000000119ab7303 WebCore::IconDatabase::iconDatabaseSyncThread() + 259
22 com.apple.JavaScriptCore 0x00000001104b6f5f WTF::wtfThreadEntryPoint(void*) + 15
23 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x0000000116747899 _pthread_body + 138
24 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x000000011674772a _pthread_start + 137
25 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x000000011674bfc9 thread_start + 13

Thread 6 Crashed:
0 ??? 0x0000000110c82598 0 + 4576519576

Thread 6 crashed with X86 Thread State (64-bit):
rax: 0x0000000000000000 rbx: 0x0000000000000054 rcx: 0x0000000110345000 rdx: 0x0000000000000054
rdi: 0x0000000000000000 rsi: 0x0000000110349000 rbp: 0x0000000110346ff0 rsp: 0x0000000110346f70
r8: 0x0000000000000000 r9: 0x0000000000000000 r10: 0x0000000000000000 r11: 0x0000000000000000
r12: 0x000000010abd1420 r13: 0x0000000000000000 r14: 0x0000000000000000 r15: 0x0000000110349000
rip: 0x0000000110c82598 rfl: 0x0000000000010202 cr2: 0x000000010abd1420

Logical CPU: 5
Error Code: 0x00000004
Trap Number: 14


Binary Images:
0x10f9c7000 - 0x10f9c7ffd com.apple.Safari (7.0.5 - 9537.77.4) <1798D677-1B85-3638-AB90-E5AD749F86E7> /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/Safari
0x10f9d2000 - 0x10fed8ffb com.apple.Safari.framework (9537 - 9537.77.4) <4DA7F240-5451-3C23-9ADA-CFE34FB51FDB> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Safari.framework/Versions/A/Safari
0x1102c8000 - 0x1102c9ff7 libSystem.B.dylib (1197.1.1) <E303F2F8-A8CF-3DF3-84B3-F2D0EE41CCF6> /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib
0x1102d1000 - 0x1102efff7 com.apple.Accounts (113 - 113) <FEB37642-C973-3CD2-B279-142492266A16> /System/Library/Frameworks/Accounts.framework/Versions/A/Accounts
0x11031000
     
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Jul 5, 2014, 01:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
I know that there is some tie in between Safari and Office, b/c whenever I have to update the latter, Safari has to be quit.
First of all, whenever I am updating software, I insure that all applications are shut down. Not sure why you would have Safari running while trying to update Office, as it is prudent to do software updates/installations by themselves.

Secondly, I have Office 2011, and whenever I have updated it, I do not have any issues with Outlook, Word, or Excel and any other software, including Firefox (my browser of choice) and Safari (use it once in a while, usually when an imbedded video does not play within Firefox).

Speaking of Office, can you run Word and/or Excel?

Third, when I did a google search of "Safari and Office 2011", the first "hit" I got was this:

Quit Safari to install or update Office 2011 &#124; OfficeforMacHelp.com

It explains specifically why you should quit Safari prior to updating. Hope it can help you.

(By the way, here is the link that contains all the "hits" from the search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Safa...x-a&channel=sb)
     
jmiddel  (op)
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Jul 5, 2014, 01:59 AM
 
All of what you said is agreed upon and done. I have not upgraded anything since the last OS update some days ago, a bit before this problem arose. This update required a restart, so all apps were shut down.

This happened out of the blue: I checked my email 2 hours earlier, everything worked, a few spams, I did not click on anything, just deleted. The spam was from known sources, Newegg eg. Then, 2 hours later I get that error message. Outlook crashes, and so does Safari.

The problem is not with the email content, as I was able to retrieve it using Outlook on my laptop which was last used last year!
     
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Jul 5, 2014, 06:47 AM
 
Have you shut down and done a cold restart? I've found that MS apps (even under OS X) sometimes don't quite finish their business during an install and that they sometimes require at least one full restart. If anything is amiss, I shut down completely and restart, which typically clears up the mess Microsoft's installations sometimes make. And that "mess" can mess up other, well-behaved apps as well, such as Safari.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Jul 5, 2014, 06:58 AM
 
What happens if you create a new user and launch your apps from that?

(Sidenote: I have not quit a single app for an install in about a decade unless the installer refuses to go on unless I do. They don't ask for that because things might crash, they ask because the plugin itself won't work until an app restart, which might give you a bad first impression.)
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 5, 2014, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
(Sidenote: I have not quit a single app for an install in about a decade unless the installer refuses to go on unless I do. They don't ask for that because things might crash, they ask because the plugin itself won't work until an app restart, which might give you a bad first impression.)
I have never believed that is a good idea. As it is, a number of applications will either warn you, or require you, to quit all other programs before doing any type of installation. There has to be good reasons for that, and for Office and Safari, the link I provided above showed why clearly enough. Fortunately, upgrading to OS 10.9.4 requires one to quit all other applications that are running.

For those installations that only give a warning, it would be akin to trying to change your oil and/or oil filter while the car is still running (assuming it is easy to do). It sure would be a mess if the engine is left running! Same with installing software without shutting down all other, running apps. The risk (and mess) is just too great!
     
jmiddel  (op)
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Jul 5, 2014, 03:56 PM
 
I have a user account just for this, called 'Test', and Safari quit on launch. Just to be clear, I did not upgrade anything within 24 hours of this problem. Safari got upped with 10.9.4 which I installed the day it came out
     
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Jul 5, 2014, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
I have a user account just for this, called 'Test', and Safari quit on launch. Just to be clear, I did not upgrade anything within 24 hours of this problem. Safari got upped with 10.9.4 which I installed the day it came out
"Seems" like you have some strange software problem here. I'm sure it must be frustrating, given that you have tried just about anything. Did you try and launch Outlook with your Test account?

Not sure if the next steps will help, but it could be worth a try:

1. Do you have a stable, working OS 10.9.3 backup, done prior to June 25th (that's when the latest Office 2011 update came out), and preferably on a different physical drive (externally attached)?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, then "wipe off" your primary, boot drive, do a restore from that backup, and try Outlook and the (prior) version of Safari after the restore. If it works, then 1) apply the Office 2011 updater (after quitting all applications), and 2) use the Combo OS 10.9.4 updater, again making sure to quit all applications. After installation, try Outlook and Safari. If they work, that would be wonderful. If not, then you could have a "weird" hardware problem.

3. If there is a suspected weird hardware problem, besides wiping off your boot drive, erase it, re-format it, and if needed, partition it. When that is done, run Disk Warrior to make sure everything is OK (this last part might be overkill, but it can't hurt). Once completed, do the restore from the working OS 10.9.3 backup, and repeat what I stated in 2 above.

I know this seems like too much work, and especially given everything you tried. But, something really strange is going on here. With the link I provided above about Office 2011 installation and quitting a browser (Safari, Firefox, or Chrome), maybe there was an issue when the Office 2011 update was installed (came out prior to the OS 10.9.4 update, which came out on June 30th). The article specifically mentions two specific Internet Plugins installed: SharePointBrowserPlugin.plugin and SharePointWebKitPlugin.webplugin. It also states that it uses the Safari WebKit for rendering HTML so if Safari is left open when installing this could result in problems. Maybe one, or both, of those pluginfiles are causing issues. Or, there is an issue with Safari Webkit.

I don't remember if the Office 2011 update specifically requires one to quit all applications, as I do that anyway prior to starting any installation (notice that the browser I use, Firefox, is also mentioned in connection with the Plugins. There could also be something for Firefox for rendering HTML, as there is for Safari).

Good luck!
( Last edited by akent35; Jul 5, 2014 at 05:54 PM. )
     
jmiddel  (op)
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Jul 5, 2014, 08:25 PM
 
Talked to MS support, they have not fixed it yet, despite a complete reinstall of Office. The tech found the line at the bottom as a indicator of something wrong, but didn't know what it meant. Anyone know what it means? If needed I'll wipe and restore, but this problem seems likely to follow me around, if a reinstall did nothing.


7/5/14 6:20:33.000 PM kernel[0]: SMC::smcReadKeyAction ERROR F1Mn kSMCBadArgumentError(0x89) fKeyHashTable=0x0xffffff802dde7000
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 01:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
Talked to MS support, they have not fixed it yet, despite a complete reinstall of Office. The tech found the line at the bottom as a indicator of something wrong, but didn't know what it meant. Anyone know what it means? If needed I'll wipe and restore, but this problem seems likely to follow me around, if a reinstall did nothing.


7/5/14 6:20:33.000 PM kernel[0]: SMC::smcReadKeyAction ERROR F1Mn kSMCBadArgumentError(0x89) fKeyHashTable=0x0xffffff802dde7000
If you did install the (earlier) Office 2011 update, along with shutting down any applications that were running (especially Safari), then it's perplexing why you have this problem, but I have not had any issues at all. That is, Outlook and Safari (limited use) worked fine before and after the Office 2011 update, and before and after the subsequent 10.9.4 update. And, my browser of choice, Firefox, also works fine.

Maybe there is something else within your system that I don't have, but is causing you issues. Did you install the Office 2011 update, and if so, did you quit all running applications? If you installed that update without quitting Safari V7.0.4, then maybe that was "OK", but when you upgraded to OS 10.9.4, and thus to Safari V7.0.5, the prior "problematic" installation of Office 2011 is now causing issues.

By the way, even though I installed the latest Office 2011 update on June 27th, I just installed it again, and it did not tell me to quit any running applications. Of course, I did not have anything running when I did it. I am kind of surprised that when I just did this, it did not tell me I had already installed it. That seems somewhat strange, but no issues have arisen. Outlook, Firefox, Safari, Word, and Excel all work fine, as before.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
I have never believed that is a good idea. As it is, a number of applications will either warn you, or require you, to quit all other programs before doing any type of installation. There has to be good reasons for that, and for Office and Safari, the link I provided above showed why clearly enough. Fortunately, upgrading to OS 10.9.4 requires one to quit all other applications that are running.

For those installations that only give a warning, it would be akin to trying to change your oil and/or oil filter while the car is still running (assuming it is easy to do). It sure would be a mess if the engine is left running! Same with installing software without shutting down all other, running apps. The risk (and mess) is just too great!
A better metaphor would be requiring the TV to be turned off when you paint the house. One should not rely on the other, and if it does, one of them (or the house) is poorly designed. Note that if you install an application from the Mac App Store, there are no such warnings nor a way to make them. Adobe is a special case, requiring browsers to be closed when installing their stuff. Either they are inept programmers and that is actually required, or just plain evil and want you to look at their ads while installing. It is yet another of the flaws in Flash that it requires a lot of apps to be closed when making updates, thereby delaying installation of security patches.

The requirement to close apps before installing, other than the special case of live plugins, comes from Windows and the DLL hell. Because of the lack of a functioning versioning system for shared libraries in earlier versions, shutting down apps made some modicum of sense. Makers of cross platform software thus made it standard operating procedure to recommend that applications be closed when installing.

If you shut down applications when installing, do you shut down the Finder too? It is an application, after all, with full file system access and the ability to elevate to root access. It even has a plugin system - clearly it must be the most dangerous type of application to leave running when installing things!
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
Talked to MS support, they have not fixed it yet, despite a complete reinstall of Office. The tech found the line at the bottom as a indicator of something wrong, but didn't know what it meant. Anyone know what it means? If needed I'll wipe and restore, but this problem seems likely to follow me around, if a reinstall did nothing.


7/5/14 6:20:33.000 PM kernel[0]: SMC::smcReadKeyAction ERROR F1Mn kSMCBadArgumentError(0x89) fKeyHashTable=0x0xffffff802dde7000
The SMC is the System Management Controller, a part of the hardware on your Mac. You could try resetting it, although I have never heard of an issue with the SMC causing problems like this.

Intel-based Macs: Resetting the System Management Controller (SMC)
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 01:18 PM
 
One more shot in the dark: have you tried disabling the SharePoint and Silverlight plugins? Office likes to install them and presumably updates them as well. They're in /Library/Internet Plug-Ins.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The requirement to close apps before installing, other than the special case of live plugins, comes from Windows and the DLL hell. Because of the lack of a functioning versioning system for shared libraries in earlier versions, shutting down apps made some modicum of sense. Makers of cross platform software thus made it standard operating procedure to recommend that applications be closed when installing.
Modicum or not, it is just the smart thing to do, and as you stated earlier, with inept programmers out there, better to be safe than sorry! Also, even though all of us here would like to believe otherwise, it is still a "Windows world", and us Mac users will always have to deal with narrow minded developers who basically ignore Macs.

Originally Posted by P View Post
If you shut down applications when installing, do you shut down the Finder too? It is an application, after all, with full file system access and the ability to elevate to root access. It even has a plugin system - clearly it must be the most dangerous type of application to leave running when installing things!
Of course not! That sounds like what a Windows programmer would think! Just kidding. But, I suspect there is plenty of documentation about shutting down all applications, except, of course Finder. Plus, even with level headed programmers that know Macs, it has never been stated to "close down" the Finder.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
A better metaphor would be requiring the TV to be turned off when you paint the house. One should not rely on the other, and if it does, one of them (or the house) is poorly designed.
What? There is no direct connection between painting one's house (whether outside or inside) like there is with changing the oil in one's car and the engine. In fact, the engine relies directly on the oil. Similarly, there are, in many instances, a direct connection between doing software upgrades/installations and other applications running at the same time. Safari and Office 2011 is the outstanding example, but there are others.
     
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Jul 6, 2014, 04:16 PM
 
With Microsoft, I never count on their software to play well with other MS software, let alone leaving their mitts off of someone else's software. I pretty much expect their installers to run roughshod over whatever, so I try to keep that whatever out of their way.

Outlook likes to hook into the "default" web app, so I can see how it could bork something with Safari. Likewise, since I don't trust MS apps to play nice, I make everything as simple for them as possible. They should not depend on other apps to install or run (unless you've told them to use those other apps), but remember who we're talking about.

If it's an Apple app, or an app from a publisher I trust to do OS X right, I'll follow the publisher's guidance on shutting own all open apps and/or restarting, but since many Windows apps tell you to do that when installing them, I have gotten used to giving Microsoft apps as little as possible to mess up...

jmiddel, have you UNinstalled Outlook and then reinstalled it, or just reinstalled over the existing installation? The borkage looks like it's deeper than just something wrong with Outlook itself. Yes, you can do that without losing your saved stuff.

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Jul 6, 2014, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
What? There is no direct connection between painting one's house (whether outside or inside) like there is with changing the oil in one's car and the engine. In fact, the engine relies directly on the oil. Similarly, there are, in many instances, a direct connection between doing software upgrades/installations and other applications running at the same time. Safari and Office 2011 is the outstanding example, but there are others.
My point is that there should not be any connection between running one application and installing another - if there is, something has gone wrong. In that case it is because it wants to update a plugin. A better way to ensure functionality would be to indicate a browser restart after installation has completed. Recommending users to always close all applications to install an update is a good way to make sure that updates are not installed.
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Jul 6, 2014, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
My point is that there should not be any connection between running one application and installing another - if there is, something has gone wrong. In that case it is because it wants to update a plugin. A better way to ensure functionality would be to indicate a browser restart after installation has completed. Recommending users to always close all applications to install an update is a good way to make sure that updates are not installed.
First of all, it is just about impossible to know whether or not there is a connection. As I mentioned above, the Office 2011 update did not tell me to quit any applications, but the OS 10.9.4 update said to quit all applications. So, obviously updating the OS does have connections. The Office update does also (Safari and Outlook, and apparently Firefox and Chrome with "something"). There could be other software updates from companies that also have connections, but don't give a warning to quit all running applications. That is my entire point, and thus it's better to be safe than sorry.

Secondly, your last sentence makes no sense at all. How can recommending users to always close all applications to install an update is a good way to make sure the update is not installed? If that was the case, then why would Apple do that with the OS update? It got successfully installed.

I'll repeat one more time: I always quit all applications prior to doing any software update, and the update has always, always been successfully installed. If you want to leave other applications running while doing an installation, be my guest.

Two other points: 1) your TV and paint "connection" is bogus. 2) Quitting the Finder was also bogus.
( Last edited by akent35; Jul 7, 2014 at 12:04 AM. )
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
First of all, it is just about impossible to know whether or not there is a connection. As I mentioned above, the Office 2011 update did not tell me to quit any applications, but the OS 10.9.4 update said to quit all applications. So, obviously updating the OS does have connections.
Duh. Updating the OS is something else, and since you have to reboot anyway after doing it, requiring people to quit apps before installing is not such a big inconvenience. The Office update apparently updates other MS software if installed (namely the Silverlight and SharePoint plugins), which is why it wants Safari to be off.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
The Office update does also (Safari and Outlook, and apparently Firefox and Chrome with "something"). There could be other software updates from companies that also have connections, but don't give a warning to quit all running applications. That is my entire point, and thus it's better to be safe than sorry.

Secondly, your last sentence makes no sense at all. How can recommending users to always close all applications to install an update is a good way to make sure the update is not installed?
Because if the user thinks that they have to close all apps to perform an update, they won't do it right then. They'll delay for as long as possible. If installing an update to your application requires some other application to be closed, it is your responsibility to check that the application is closed. In all other cases, just click the button and keep working on something else.

This is not a "better safe than sorry" situation. Either users install updates as they like, which means that updates get installed promptly, or they think that it's something that they need to prepare for, in which case they get installed as part of the next "spring cleaning". If there was no reason to quit apps when installing, your advice just made them less secure.

Furthermore, berating someone when they come here with a problem that "they should have quit apps before installing something" does not contribute to the solution even if it had been true.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
If that was the case, then why would Apple do that with the OS update? It got successfully installed.
Because in that case you 1) you have to reboot anyway, so all you're doing is putting that application closer slightly earlier, and 2) an OS update will always touch files that running applications will use, something an application update should not do.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
I'll repeat one more time: I always quit all applications prior to doing any software update, and the update has always, always been successfully installed. If you want to leave other applications running while doing an installation, be my guest.
I never ever quit applications unless forced by the installer, and all of mine have been successfully installed. Since I used to work tech support, I have installed more than the average user. Of course, that might be because I always take care to throw some salt over my shoulder and light a candle to ward off evil spirits...

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
Two other points: 1) your TV and paint "connection" is bogus. 2) Quitting the Finder was also bogus.
I'm doing Reductio ad absurdum. You're taking a "better safe than sorry" approach and justify it with poor car analogies. What you don't realize is that your advice is actively harmful. I usually let it slide when people recommend repairing permissions or something else that has little effect - it's like when people eat vitamin pills. It probably doesn't help much, but it is not going to hurt (unless you eat absurd amounts) so I don't bother arguing. This is a different case. Users not applying updates is a big problem, and advice like this make the problem bigger. If your app actually requires some other app to be not running, your installer has to check that it isn't.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Duh. Updating the OS is something else, and since you have to reboot anyway after doing it, requiring people to quit a/pps before installing is not such a big inconvenience. The Office update apparently updates other MS software if installed (namely the Silverlight and SharePoint plugins), which is why it wants Safari to be off./
Duh. With the Office update not telling me to quit other applications, that is a perfect example of why one should always quit all applications prior to doing an installation. 1 + 1 does equal 2, or maybe that is something you don't see.

Originally Posted by P View Post
This is not a "better safe than sorry" situation. Either users install updates as they like, which means that updates get installed promptly, or they think that it's something that they need to prepare for, in which case they get installed as part of the next "spring cleaning". If there was no reason to quit apps when installing, your advice just made them less secure.
Duh. Since I am going to quit all applications anyway prior to shutting down my machine (prudent thing to do), it is a no brainer for me to do the same when performing updates. Also, I make it a point to keep up to date on new software updates everyday by checking sites like Apple Mac OS X Software & Apps - Discover & Download : MacUpdate and Free software downloads and software reviews - CNET Download.com. That's a painless, sensible way to know about updates. If one does not want to do that (or something similar) to keep up with updates, etc., that's their decision. I insist on being pro-active with that (and many, many other things).

Originally Posted by P View Post
Furthermore, berating someone when they come here with a problem that "they should have quit apps before installing something" does not contribute to the solution even if it had been true.
I did not berate the op. I just made a sensible statement. He (and others) did not take my statement that way.

Speaking of berating, you did exactly that with your ridiculous post about also shutting down the Finder prior to any installation. Yeah, real sound advice coming from someone who was in Technical Support. Glad you were never in any technical support department for companies I worked for!

Originally Posted by P View Post
Of course, that might be because I always take care to throw some salt over my shoulder and light a candle to ward off evil spirits...
OK. Now I see why you would question why the Finder is not shut down. That stuff maybe went to your head.

Originally Posted by P View Post
I'm doing Reductio ad absurdum. You're taking a "better safe than sorry" approach and justify it with poor car analogies. What you don't realize is that your advice is actively harmful. I usually let it slide when people recommend repairing permissions or something else that has little effect - it's like when people eat vitamin pills. It probably doesn't help much, but it is not going to hurt (unless you eat absurd amounts) so I don't bother arguing. This is a different case. Users not applying updates is a big problem, and advice like this make the problem bigger. If your app actually requires some other app to be not running, your installer has to check that it isn't.
Once again, the salt and candles are getting to you! I also tend to let it slide when folks make some suggestions, but not in this case. I do agree with your (finally something reasonable) statement "Users not applying updates is a big problem", but my advice about quitting all applications is definitely the sensible thing to do. And once again, I point to the Office 2011 update as a prime example. Again, unless one knows all applications inside and out, it is just about impossible to know how an application interfaces with others. Additionally, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft is not the only problematic company with this.
( Last edited by akent35; Jul 7, 2014 at 01:28 PM. )
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
With Microsoft, I never count on their software to play well with other MS software, let alone leaving their mitts off of someone else's software. I pretty much expect their installers to run roughshod over whatever, so I try to keep that whatever out of their way.
That's excellent advice, and I would suggest that one applies that to any update/installation. No matter how good one may think a company is about this, I keep everything out of an installer's way. That way, I'll have no issues.

I have yet to see an installation that requires one to keep the prior version of that application running. So, why risk problems with other applications?
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
jmiddel, have you UNinstalled Outlook and then reinstalled it, or just reinstalled over the existing installation? The borkage looks like it's deeper than just something wrong with Outlook itself. Yes, you can do that without losing your saved stuff.
I would think that all the "pieces" associated with Office 2011 would need to be uninstalled, especially with your insightful statement about the issue being deeper than just Outlook.

jmiddel, please let us know if you did the Office 2011 update that came out on June 25th prior to the OS 10.9.4 update. If you did, and mistakenly did not shut down Safari, can you try either of the other two browsers (Firefox and Chrome) specifically mentioned in the link I provided above? That could be a useful test.
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 09:43 PM
 
It took a complete uninstall and- and re- install of Office and a rebuild of Outlook's database to clear the problem. I think maybe just rebuilding the DB would have sufficed, since that is where the glitch resided. Thank you all for your advice!!
     
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Jul 7, 2014, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by jmiddel View Post
It took a complete uninstall and- and re- install of Office and a rebuild of Outlook's database to clear the problem. I think maybe just rebuilding the DB would have sufficed, since that is where the glitch resided. Thank you all for your advice!!
Congratulations! Real pleased to hear that the problem was resolved. I'm going to do a rebuild of my Outlook Database right now. Better safe than sorry!

Again, glad to hear you got things all good again. I'm sure that is a huge relief!
     
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Jul 8, 2014, 07:05 AM
 
Yes, it's possible that rebuilding the database might have fixed the problem, but only somewhat possible. The interconnections among Outlook and the various things that Outlook tries to use or invoke appear to have been substantially messed up - that's why Safari crashed for you - so the really important thing was to remove Outlook completely (uninstall) and then reinstall it. What was left was a messed up database, which Outlook can usually fix by itself...but only when you tell it you think the database needs it.

Akent, so far as I know, Microsoft's OS X apps at least play nice in how they uninstall. They may hook into a bunch of things when they install, but they un-hook them at uninstall time.

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Jul 8, 2014, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Akent, so far as I know, Microsoft's OS X apps at least play nice in how they uninstall. They may hook into a bunch of things when they install, but they un-hook them at uninstall time.
Thanks for the info. I still will quit all applications prior to performing any installation/update, no matter whether the application tells me to close down other programs or not. That way, I'll avoid issues.
     
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Jul 8, 2014, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
Duh. With the Office update not telling me to quit other applications, that is a perfect example of why one should always quit all applications prior to doing an installation. 1 + 1 does equal 2, or maybe that is something you don't see.
Yes, I'm missing the bit where you have anything remotely resembling evidence for why this is good. If anything, this thread was a counterexample - there were problems despite the installer requiring other apps to be quit.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
Duh. Since I am going to quit all applications anyway prior to shutting down my machine (prudent thing to do), it is a no brainer for me to do the same when performing updates. Also, I make it a point to keep up to date on new software updates everyday by checking sites like Apple Mac OS X Software & Apps - Discover & Download : MacUpdate and Free software downloads and software reviews - CNET Download.com. That's a painless, sensible way to know about updates. If one does not want to do that (or something similar) to keep up with updates, etc., that's their decision. I insist on being pro-active with that (and many, many other things).
You should make a shirt with that so you can show everyone what a great human being you are. In the meantime, it remains the case that if you make updates harder by recommending more destructive things to do before them (quitting applications often means losing state, and so is destructive).

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
I did not berate the op. I just made a sensible statement. He (and others) did not take my statement that way.
You opened a problem solving discussion by recommending your personal workflow when it was one of the extremely few things that had been excluded in the original post. It is hardly productive problem solving.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
Speaking of berating, you did exactly that with your ridiculous post about also shutting down the Finder prior to any installation. Yeah, real sound advice coming from someone who was in Technical Support. Glad you were never in any technical support department for companies I worked for!
Don't you read the posts you reply to? I did not recommend quitting the Finder, I asked if you do, because it makes about as much sense as quitting any other application - in fact more, as it has elevated privileges and a plugin system (even a nested plugin system if you want to be picky).

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
Once again, the salt and candles are getting to you! I also tend to let it slide when folks make some suggestions, but not in this case. I do agree with your (finally something reasonable) statement "Users not applying updates is a big problem", but my advice about quitting all applications is definitely the sensible thing to do. And once again, I point to the Office 2011 update as a prime example. Again, unless one knows all applications inside and out, it is just about impossible to know how an application interfaces with others. Additionally, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft is not the only problematic company with this.
By this logic, nobody should ever get in a car unless they could somehow guarantee that every single driver they might meet is a safe, sober driver in a car in good condition. You can always recommend more precautions, but those precautions have a price. In this case that price is delayed update installation. An installer should make sure that any file it updates is not in use. On occasion that means that other applications be closed. In that case, the installer should check that those applications are not running before moving forward. MS does that, Adobe does it, and those are the top two likely offenders. To recommend users to close apps on the off chance that some badly behaved installer is not going to check that the files it is going to update are closed is much more likely to lead to unnecessarily delayed updates than to any problems avoided.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 6, 2014, 04:54 PM
 
Bumping because I just got upgraded to 10.9.4 at work last week, and outlook has been a PITA ever since. Brand new install, brand new computer.

In combination with other programs being fussy... if a word or photoshop doc crashes, it takes the system with it, requiring not just a force quit but a power-down fresh start. Then, on fresh start, outlook refuses to open unless the preferences are trashed.

Rebuilding the outlook database helped for me. Whether it stops the issue or just saves me the effort of trashing preferences/setting up again, we'll see.
     
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Aug 6, 2014, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Bumping because I just got upgraded to 10.9.4 at work last week, and outlook has been a PITA ever since. Brand new install, brand new computer.

In combination with other programs being fussy... if a word or photoshop doc crashes, it takes the system with it, requiring not just a force quit but a power-down fresh start. Then, on fresh start, outlook refuses to open unless the preferences are trashed.

Rebuilding the outlook database helped for me. Whether it stops the issue or just saves me the effort of trashing preferences/setting up again, we'll see.
I have had Office 2011 (and thus Outlook for Mac 2011) ever since it came out, and I've never experienced problems with it (except when I had an issue with my ISP (Comcast) about not sending some messages. Took me a while to finally "see" the Outlook folder where they sat. Just deleted them, and things were good again).

First question (although not sure if makes much difference): do you have Office 2008, or Office 2011?

Secondly, it's perplexing, though, that you are having "similar" issues with Photoshop. Wonder if the 10.9.4 install caused problems? Did you install the OS 10.9.4 Combo Updater? Not sure if that will help, but I always install Combo Updaters.

Also, after you are forced to do a power down- fresh start (due to either Word or Photoshop crashing), can you run other Office applications, like Word or Excel? What about Photoshop after such a re-start?

At least, though (for the time being), rebuilding Outlook's database has helped. Does Photoshop work after that?
     
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Aug 6, 2014, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Yes, I'm missing the bit where you have anything remotely resembling evidence for why this is good. If anything, this thread was a counterexample - there were problems despite the installer requiring other apps to be quit.
Of course you would not understand such sensible advice. I think the salt and candles are getting to you.

Originally Posted by P View Post
You should make a shirt with that so you can show everyone what a great human being you are. In the meantime, it remains the case that if you make updates harder by recommending more destructive things to do before them (quitting applications often means losing state, and so is destructive).
At least I am a human being! And, you need to get a shirt that says "I let salt and candles get to my head". That at least would be accurate!

Originally Posted by P View Post
You opened a problem solving discussion by recommending your personal workflow when it was one of the extremely few things that had been excluded in the original post. It is hardly productive problem solving.
I just made a statement what I do. The op even agreed with that. Must be the salt and candles again!

Originally Posted by P View Post
Don't you read the posts you reply to? I did not recommend quitting the Finder, I asked if you do, because it makes about as much sense as quitting any other application - in fact more, as it has elevated privileges and a plugin system (even a nested plugin system if you want to be picky).
Here is part of what you said:

"If you shut down applications when installing, do you shut down the Finder too?"

That's stupid, idiotic logic, plain and simple. If you contend to be a Mac user, then you would know that makes no sense at all. Even with updates from Apple, there is no requirement to quit the finder.

Originally Posted by P View Post
By this logic, nobody should ever get in a car unless they could somehow guarantee that every single driver they might meet is a safe, sober driver in a car in good condition. You can always recommend more precautions, but those precautions have a price. In this case that price is delayed update installation. An installer should make sure that any file it updates is not in use. On occasion that means that other applications be closed. In that case, the installer should check that those applications are not running before moving forward. MS does that, Adobe does it, and those are the top two likely offenders. To recommend users to close apps on the off chance that some badly behaved installer is not going to check that the files it is going to update are closed is much more likely to lead to unnecessarily delayed updates than to any problems avoided.
By your logic, one should just "wing it", and do things without much thought at all. Myself, I am going to take the necessary (and prudent) precautions, no matter what the price is. And, if you think that "An installer should make sure that any file it updates is not in use", you're living in fantasy land. Good luck with that!
( Last edited by akent35; Aug 6, 2014 at 08:23 PM. )
     
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Aug 7, 2014, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
do you have Office 2008, or Office 2011?
Wonder if the 10.9.4 install caused problems? Did you install the OS 10.9.4 Combo Updater? Not sure if that will help, but I always install Combo Updaters.
What about Photoshop after such a re-start?
Office 2011, fresh install. IT did the OS updates, so not sure if they used updater combo or not. No issues like this with 10.7.
After crashing/restart, other apps reopen fine, but outlook database is borked.

Today, so far so good. Now to open a 100mb photoshop file...
     
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Aug 7, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Office 2011, fresh install. IT did the OS updates, so not sure if they used updater combo or not. No issues like this with 10.7.
After crashing/restart, other apps reopen fine, but outlook database is borked.

Today, so far so good. Now to open a 100mb photoshop file...
Good to hear! Hopefully, rebuilding Outlook's database cured the problem.
     
   
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