You know how everyone has been complaining about losing the Apple Menu, the Application Menu and the Control Strip?

Well, I think I found a way to get a lot of that functionality back. It's simple.

Allow people to right click on icons in the dock!

I know, you're thinking, hey, that's not going to bring my beloved Apple Menu back - but hear me out.

Apart from being able to do the basic kind of thing like Show, Quit, Hide, Maximize, you'd be able to do heaps of Application Specific Stuff. Think about it...

* PPPConnect. You could connect and disconnect by right clicking on the icon in the dock and selecting the action.
* You could get mail to create a new message without having to go to the program itself. Or you could get it to check mail - for one accounts or all accounts.
* You could get your MP3 player to play, FF, Rew, stop, load a new playlist...
* System Preferences (and I really love this one) could allow you to select a specific control panel to open (just like the Apple Menu's contextual menus)
*Preview (and a whole host of other apps) could open a specific document up

I think you get the idea, anyhow.

Plus, what could be done is to create a new menu under the "right-click menu" that you use whenver you right click in the finder or the desktop, and you could get all these functions from there too.

It wouldn't confuse the dock for beginning users because they wouldn't know about right-clicking. However, it would make the dock infinitely more scalable for pros.

Originally posted by jamesa:
You know how everyone has been complaining about losing the Apple Menu, the Application Menu and the Control Strip?

Well, I think I found a way to get a lot of that functionality back. It's simple.

Allow people to right click on icons in the dock!

I know, you're thinking, hey, that's not going to bring my beloved Apple Menu back - but hear me out.

Apart from being able to do the basic kind of thing like Show, Quit, Hide, Maximize, you'd be able to do heaps of Application Specific Stuff. Think about it...

* PPPConnect. You could connect and disconnect by right clicking on the icon in the dock and selecting the action.
* You could get mail to create a new message without having to go to the program itself. Or you could get it to check mail - for one accounts or all accounts.
* You could get your MP3 player to play, FF, Rew, stop, load a new playlist...
* System Preferences (and I really love this one) could allow you to select a specific control panel to open (just like the Apple Menu's contextual menus)
*Preview (and a whole host of other apps) could open a specific document up

I think you get the idea, anyhow.

Plus, what could be done is to create a new menu under the "right-click menu" that you use whenver you right click in the finder or the desktop, and you could get all these functions from there too.

It wouldn't confuse the dock for beginning users because they wouldn't know about right-clicking. However, it would make the dock infinitely more scalable for pros.

I like it! That would be nice. I think you should submit your comment to Apple.

I have submitted it to Apple, but what I'm concerned about is that Apple has all the suggestions heading straight into the Ether. They ask for feedback, but they just ignore it. All they care about is being seen to do the right thing.

That's kind of why I wanted to post it in the forums - that way people could see it, and if it gathers a bit of steam perhaps Apple will listen

Sounds like a good idea to me. I think it should also support the click-and-hold method of context-menu selection. I think the FinderPop extension does this for OS9. It's a good thing for newbies: if you hold down the mouse while you're thinking about what you're trying to do, you get a hint about the common uses for that application.

cheers
Richard

One slight problem. My Powerbook, and all Apple mice, only have one button.

IMO some way of operating the interface without modifier keys is needed. I don't want to remember a shift-alt-meta-'coke bottle' combination to activate features.


------------------
Mick Sheppard

if you don't want to use the alternate keys, you don't have to. That's the whole point.

And a vast majority of mac users I know buy 3rd party mice, especially with the advent of USB. Insert small plug: I got a Razer Boomslang, they rock! http://www.razerzone.com

I too have a Powerbook, and in OS 9 when I didn't have my mouse with me I got quite used to Control Clicking. As I said, it works well because if you don't want to use it, you haven't reduced the functionality, but otherwise pro users get heaps more use out of the (much maligned) dock.

"Ether"? Maybe you've been inhalling the stuff? MacInTouch in their OS X Report also had a comment that Apple is listening, lurking on forums and message boards, and I have gotten an email on something I submitted to feedback (okay it's 1 out of 100, but it was the most concise and well-documented etc, too).

I don't think it's "window dressing" or PR - they're probably hoping to see this succeed as much or more than you or i.

I also would like to connect to the net with one click and not lauch etc.

First the bugs and install issues and stability, then the UI and enhancements. The Mac OS has never stood still and sometimes slow to evolve.

Mac users tend to be more multi-platform users maybe than the average and have unique needs and ideas - a Mac running OS 9, OS X, Linux, and at one time contemplating NT. Mac on Linux, OS 9 on X, can Linux run virtual machines of OS X? Or multiple copies of OS X on one machine or server?

Those will move the platform. To me, the Apple Menu or whatever popup stuff is icing, frosting, not hte meat (or cake!). (Trying to live on coffee and chocolate and little sleep

Gregory

I like the idea.

The problem comes from the fact that Apple seems to be downplaying contextual menus again. Already it looks like CMM's are a no-go for OSX Final.

Particularly interesting, however, may be the reason why: I did a little looking into this, and it seems as though CMM's were based on the last vestiges of OpenDoc, namely the SOM object model (developed by IBM, based off of CORBA). In what seems to be Apple's bid to purge all memory of OpenDoc (or, it seems, component technology in general) from the platform, CMM's had to go.

I find this to be an incredible shame, as someone who's worked with Windows' COM. COM is awful as component technologies go, but the fact that it's a component-based technology allows you to do some seriously cool stuff that you just can't get otherwise. SOM, and by extension OpenDoc, had all of COM's advantages, but without many of the fundamental flaws in COM's model. I hope Apple will at least keep EOF in OSX, though even this looks unlikely.

Say, if they don't even do that, I'd thought about trying to port Bonobo (GNOME's component model, and the most similar thing I could find to OpenDoc) to OSX. Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

"To me, the Apple Menu or whatever popup stuff is icing, frosting, not hte meat (or cake!)"

I disagree. Witness how many posts have been made regards losing the Apple/Application menu, and how many people want to run NT apps on OS X, etc. And having all the good parts of Linux running on our machines are only a few short steps away. I think people underestimate how enpowering terminal.app will be. It is symbollic of the most important change Apple has made with OS X.

From my experience (I currently work at a help desk for a big ISP) Mac users are a picky sort; they like the interface being just right. They like intuitivity (sp?). The number of times I have watched people playing with my OS X PB and clicked in the dock and held the mouse button down just a bit too long or right clicked, expecting a control strip pop up to come up is starting to get annoying.

The way I look at is that a lot of people had accepted the fact that MacOS 9 had the UI the closest that any mass-OS has come to perfect. There were nagging things, and it had a tendancy to crash just a little too much, but otherwise it was great. That's why we all used it.

The Apple Menu was part of making it great - being able to customise to our hearts content, and knowing that what we put in there was always going to be there, no matter which application we were running. Same goes for the Control Strip - which could only be described as the precursor for the dock - you could click in it and you'd get exactly what you wanted. You knew that unless you had to change some settings, you could connect to the internet by clicking on that little control strip and it would just go. Same with playing CDs or whatever.

I know they seem like little things, but they saved you time. Lots of time, when you needed to do lots of little things in there. Read the stuff posted by Tog or the excellent report on Ars Technica, they discuss it in detail. The "icing", as you call it, is for the average user the most important part of the OS. Being able to use it with ease because it's **just as you imagine it will be**.

Anyway, I'm starting to get off topic. I believe that the suggestion would bring a big enhancement to the dock.


[This message has been edited by jamesa (edited 10-12-2000).]

Originally posted by jamesa:
The Apple Menu was part of making it great - being able to customise to our hearts content, and knowing that what we put in there was always going to be there, no matter which application we were running. Same goes for the Control Strip - which could only be described as the precursor for the dock - you could click in it and you'd get exactly what you wanted. You knew that unless you had to change some settings, you could connect to the internet by clicking on that little control strip and it would just go. Same with playing CDs or whatever.

Hmmm. Ya lost me... the Dock does all that... but better.
I put things in there and they are always there, right where I can find
them quick. It vanishes when I don't need it, and I don't have to click
to bring it back. Its better than the control strip to that extent.

Now I agree that it would be nice to have pop-up menus on the icons in the Dock... in fact, in another thread I assert one use I'd like is a menu of the multiple windows open for the program so you can choose which to raise (and eliminate the windows iconifying into the right side of the dock where they are relatively useless).

Now I've got used to the dock I like it . I haven't explored the ability to add applications to it yet but that would make it like the apple menu. Apple menu also held files. I'm not sure the dock can do that. But there is so much to play with I haven't got round to that yet. I like that you can click on open apps in the dock and this brings them to the front . This is faster than using the finder menu previously where you had to select etc...

In a way I miss the messy desktop with all its collapsed bars for easy of selection of open work, but classic lets me do this anyway.


As for the conrol strip: ppp conect is an application and I suppose could be added to the dock permanently. The music player is already there.

Contextual menu was quite a buzz. Flying through commands at hyperspeed got quite seductive and this functionalltity is missing. I think if your gona make the best os in the world you might as well go the whole hog. Besides preemtive contexual menu, lol, man that would replace drugs for some people!!!!

just tried adding items to the dock so sipmle just drag and drop

just tried adding items to the dock so sipmle just drag and drop

But, as many have pointed out, the Apple menu is probably the most underused part of the Mac OS. Only people who tinker extensively with things, who try and see what this does, what that does...only those people actually realize what a benefit the Apple menu is for having any app or file right at your fingertips. The large majority of users simply use it for control panels, or the DVD player, or for whatever is built into it already. MacOS X needs to find some way to make a new implementation of it that is more intuitive.

As well, I confess I don't really like using the Apple menu much. I simply put aliases on my desktop or use popup folders for all my fav files. Why? Faster. Clicking on the Apple Menu, going to "Apps", waiting for that to pop up, going to "Internet", waiting......it's much easier to simply use the popup folder "Internet", or double click on a desktop alias. Sure, the Apple Menu is much neater and more comprehensive, but for pure "get-it-now"-es something like the Dock, which needs just a fast click, is better.

However, like was mentioned before many times...it just gets too big and unweildy when used as a combo app picker and minimizer...things go all to pot. I suggested the "Ctrl-click-to-popup-menu" idea when OS X first came out, and it seems to now be gaining ground. I've always wondered how much it would slow you down, however. For example, you wouldn't know what apps have minimized windows, or whatnot...maybe a number under the bottom of the picture (would also force the "click area" to the bottom of the screen) could indicate how many windows are minimized?????? I think that would be a good visual indicator......


greg


------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

Now this is a damn good idea!

------------------
Andy Pastuszak
andy_pastuszak@yahoo.com

Originally posted by qnc:
Now I've got used to the dock I like it . I haven't explored the ability to add applications to it yet but that would make it like the apple menu. Apple menu also held files. I'm not sure the dock can do that

What!! It handles both -- and much better than the Apple Menu -- try it!

I wonder how many of the people complaining about the Dock and complaining about the lack of the Apple menu haven't realized that the Dock is *designed* to let you hold apps and files like the apple menu! People complain about the trash moving... but if you've put your favorite apps in the Dock, then the Dock starts full width and the trash never moves.

To put an application in the Dock, before you open it, just drag it down there and let go. To reorder the apps, just drag them around... it'll rearrange as you drag. To get rid of something, just drag it off the dock and let go and *poof* its gone. Files and folders can be dragged onto the right "half" of the Dock; apps on the left. Oh! And make sure you *Logout* when you're done -- don't Restart or Shutdown directly -- there's currently a bug where if you Restart from inside the Desktop, it forgets to log you out on the way and your Dock settings will not get saved. Logout and then you can shutdown or restart from the login dialog.

Now just to get you all going, here's my default Dock:

Desktop Sherlock Terminal PPP Eudora Fire OmniWeb IE QT MP MM AppleWorks Word Clock Feedback Trash

Note that the Clock, since its always running, makes a nice divider between your std apps and the other ones that are added because they are running. I have them in logical order (File handling, Web Apps, Regular Apps).

For my kids accounts, they have Docks more like this:

Desktop Sherlock Mail Fire OmniWeb IE QT MP TextEdit Clock GamesX Games9 Trash


Oh, and did I mention: I love the Dock! (I just hate the handling of minimized windows... so now I mostly use Hide. Windows should minimize into their program icon... see the thread I started on that issue.)

Cheers,

Brian

Hey kennedy "Mr organised". I just got the OSX a few days ago and today I had a play with "The dock". Your right it is so easy to use and there's a tread about getting alternative poof's. Maybe I'll play with that tomorrow!!!

It is much easier than apple menu. Indeed I have the folder apple menu items from my os 9 in the dock very impressive indeed.

I don't think I want it quite so organised as you have it. I need some mess its all so clean this OSXPB!!!

I'd like to keep it a little chilled out, you know.

The tip about the clock is useful and the log out tip invaluable.

Thanks

i think some of you are a little misguided in thinking that the dock currently replaces the apple menu.
this is what apple wants you to believe, but it IS NOT TRUE.

The dock can't do what the apple menu does.

sure you can drag apps, and files and folders onto the dock.

well what if you have 10-20 apps that you use on a regular (i.e. at least once a week ). right now i have 10 apps on my dock. it is getting crowded to say the least. add to that 5 docs and 5 folders. feeling crowded yet?

with the apple menu you can have litteraly 100+ apps right at your finger tips, and for someone who posted that the apple menu is slower than double clicking on aliases on the desktop, give me a break.

maybe if you tried it, it wouldn't seem so slow. maybe if you only use 5 applications then sure, it might be a waste of time.
But, I'd like to see you have 50 aliases on your desktop, fishing around for the one you want to launch. well friends, that's at least how many apps i have on my computer, and my desktop has less than 6 icons on it. i find icons on the desktop distracting, and a waste of time (except for trash, mounted volumes/partitions/disks), why? because they never stay where you want them when using certain apps that switch resolutions. anyway i've digressed.

the dock could do what the control strip/apple menu does like the person of this thread suggested, which i agree with wholeheartedly.

i don't recall reading this suggestion(maybe i missed it), but linux has a neet way of dealing with this, you can put folders(called boxes or something) on your 'dock'. inside these boxes you can put whatever you want, apps, files, etc.. when you roll-over (i.e. put the mouse over them) they pop up exactly like the apple menu(in a alphabetical list view). clicking on the item contained within opens it.

you could have one dock item for files, one for favorites, one for urls, one for apps, one for internet apps, it'd be great!!! and this is not the same thing as a simple folder. i don't want to open a new window on the desktop to fish around for an app or file, i want a menu that i can roll-over. i currently have a downloads folder on the dock and when i open it i have to move the mouse to a new location, scan for the file of interest and open it. menus do away with this silliness.

the apple menu concept of file/app organization is brilliant.

i have about 8 folders in mine: apps, internet apps, games, desktop utilities (like sys profiler, stickies,calculator), utilities(disk first aid, toast), multimedia(soundjam, dvd player), control panels.
and that is about it. within each folder is an alias to a particular app.
with at least 10 items in each folder i can easily launch whatever i need in seconds. with osXPB there is no option like this. the dock doesn't cut it alone. unless YOU like sifting through folders with the new finder to access apps/files that you use occasionally.

the apple menu eliminates the need to sift through anything. you put something where YOU (the user) wants, and it is there , hidden but accessable in seconds. and it takes up about 10X10pixels!!!! 100 - 1000 items easily accesable in 10X10, try putting 100 items in the current incarnation of the dock! I dare you

just my thoughts.

hey if you don't like/use the apple menu that's fine, i really don't care.
Every mac user i know uses the apple menu. in the same invaluable way that i do.

i use it, i sure don't want to lose it.

peace,
michael

I didn't say that I post aliases for everything on the desktop - just that my favorite "one-click" items (like IE, or Outlook, or Quicktime) are there. Obviously I don't have 50+ items on my desktop, but between my few aliases and my popup folders I have quite a few.

As for the Apple Menu - I use it all the time. Hey, what can I say - it's the fastest way without crowding the screen. However, I stand by the fact that it's slow for fast access (like launching PPP or Outlook - things I do in 0.5 seconds upon startup), and it is NOT INTUITIVE. How would you know to put stuff in the Apple menu???? Unless someone told you or you went into your System folder and saw the Apple Menu Items folder, and made the connection...and even then, it doesn't dawn on many people that you can add or delete stuff via....

The average user doesn't even use it beyond basic built-in functions - and, as someone who uses Macs in a Peecee area with a "newbie" family, I will bet on that. Furthermore, I know that many people DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT IT'S THERE. They see the Apple symbol, and say "Cute! An Apple!" - but why should they somehow make the connection that it is actually a powerful Application shortcut?????

What Apple should probably do is somehow incorporate it into the Dock, since that is what OS X will revolve around. An Apple menu similar to the Start menu has been suggested already - that might be cool, as long as it didn't cover the Dock....Maybe having it up where it is now might be just as useful, although it wouldn't be as visible or obvious for the ignorant.......

If Apple does decide to include an Apple Menu, they'd better change it. BeHeirarchic (sp) comes to mind, along with a few more. There's a lot more potential than what's already there.....

Finally, I like my idea about minimizing to the Dock icon, and then a number to show the minimized windows. Any comments/suggestions/flames on this????

greg


------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

Why does it have to be either or? I want both!

The dock is okay, but it is also annoying in the way it moves and intrudes, the way one can actually lose things underneath.. nowhere near as functional as GoMac was/is, which also contained control strips, a quick-start menu and never evry encroached into documents.

Like in a car interior, you can never have too many storage areas.

It is nice to have different items in distinct areas. The Apple Menu with its hierarchical folders is unequalled in how many items you can store there for fast and space effiicient access.
The dock is fine for often used items.

Remember, for many of us the dock must now replace not only the Apple menu, but also tabbed windows, GoMac, etc. PLUS- a wonderful system of Contextual menus, aided by FinderPop, which in itself may be the biggest loss for me!
That's a tall order. Therefore, we need more!

Originally posted by kennedy:
What!! It handles both -- and much better than the Apple Menu -- try it!

I wonder how many of the people complaining about the Dock and complaining about the lack of the Apple menu haven't realized that the Dock is *designed* to let you hold apps and files like the apple menu! People complain about the trash moving... but if you've put your favorite apps in the Dock, then the Dock starts full width and the trash never moves.

To put an application in the Dock, before you open it, just drag it down there and let go. To reorder the apps, just drag them around... it'll rearrange as you drag. To get rid of something, just drag it off the dock and let go and *poof* its gone. Files and folders can be dragged onto the right "half" of the Dock; apps on the left. Oh! And make sure you *Logout* when you're done -- don't Restart or Shutdown directly -- there's currently a bug where if you Restart from inside the Desktop, it forgets to log you out on the way and your Dock settings will not get saved. Logout and then you can shutdown or restart from the login dialog.

Now just to get you all going, here's my default Dock:

Desktop Sherlock Terminal PPP Eudora Fire OmniWeb IE QT MP MM AppleWorks Word Clock Feedback Trash

Note that the Clock, since its always running, makes a nice divider between your std apps and the other ones that are added because they are running. I have them in logical order (File handling, Web Apps, Regular Apps).

For my kids accounts, they have Docks more like this:

Desktop Sherlock Mail Fire OmniWeb IE QT MP TextEdit Clock GamesX Games9 Trash


Oh, and did I mention: I love the Dock! (I just hate the handling of minimized windows... so now I mostly use Hide. Windows should minimize into their program icon... see the thread I started on that issue.)

Cheers,

Brian

The dock is great for newbies, but to say that it can completely replace the Apple Menu, and ESPECIALLY the control strip (which personally I liked more than the Apple Menu - fast, almost instant access to the most commonly used functions of your computer) is wrong!

To see why the dock isn't as great as everyone here seems to think it is:
http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/4...eta-13.html#b1

I'm not saying I want to get rid of it - I quite like it - but nonetheless I would like added functionality put in.

And, to get around the problem of people not wanting to control click, instead you could have the option of holding down the mouse for say two seconds or control click to bring up the extra options. I really believe this would add to the usability of the dock. Otherwise it's nothing but a glorified Finder window!

Originally posted by ShortcutToMoncton:
I didn't say that I post aliases for everything on the desktop - just that my favorite "one-click" items (like IE, or Outlook, or Quicktime) are there. Obviously I don't have 50+ items on my desktop, but between my few aliases and my popup folders I have quite a few.

As for the Apple Menu - I use it all the time. Hey, what can I say - it's the fastest way without crowding the screen. However, I stand by the fact that it's slow for fast access (like launching PPP or Outlook - things I do in 0.5 seconds upon startup), and it is NOT INTUITIVE. How would you know to put stuff in the Apple menu???? Unless someone told you or you went into your System folder and saw the Apple Menu Items folder, and made the connection...and even then, it doesn't dawn on many people that you can add or delete stuff via....

The average user doesn't even use it beyond basic built-in functions - and, as someone who uses Macs in a Peecee area with a "newbie" family, I will bet on that. Furthermore, I know that many people DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT IT'S THERE. They see the Apple symbol, and say "Cute! An Apple!" - but why should they somehow make the connection that it is actually a powerful Application shortcut?????

What Apple should probably do is somehow incorporate it into the Dock, since that is what OS X will revolve around. An Apple menu similar to the Start menu has been suggested already - that might be cool, as long as it didn't cover the Dock....Maybe having it up where it is now might be just as useful, although it wouldn't be as visible or obvious for the ignorant.......

If Apple does decide to include an Apple Menu, they'd better change it. BeHeirarchic (sp) comes to mind, along with a few more. There's a lot more potential than what's already there.....

Finally, I like my idea about minimizing to the Dock icon, and then a number to show the minimized windows. Any comments/suggestions/flames on this????

greg

I thought about this - and I realised another company that had a similar problem. Psion has a "dock" at such on the bottom of their screen, and instead of them shrinking it when you got that many apps on it, what they provided was an option to either have arrows so you could scroll up and down (kind of like Window's task bar when you REALLY fill it up) or alternatively it could just grow up and up until it took up the entire screen when you clicked on it. Counter-intuitive, you say?

Well, when you're in the dock, most of the time you don't need anything behind it anyway. So it may work. Not the most elegant solution, though...

Okay, I was a bit overboard in my statements.... I (wrongly) assume you all have read my past comments on improvements I'd like to see in the Dock. I think most power users have 8-15 programs they access a *lot* and a bunch of other programs they access regularly. The average users maybe half that. The Dock will almost entirely satisfy the average users needs and will do a great job on the "access a *lot*" programs of almost all people.

But I agree 100% that we need to have some menus popping up from the Dock... all of the following I've suggested in the past (here and to Apple):

1) program icons, by default, should popup a menu of their open windows -- it could just be their existing Window menu. All windows, whether minimized or not should be there. And minimized windows should minimize to their program icon, not become an icon of their own.

2) program-specific menus that allow certain functionality to remain available even when the program is not open; this is particularly useful for one-window apps, for which a Window menu would be of limited value.

3) you should be able to have an overflow menu for all your regular-use apps that you don't want in the one-click space of the Dock. Most users will never need this... but the power users definitely will.

4) I like the idea above of having folders in the dock have a default menu that is a list of their contents; selecting them is the equivalent of double-clicking in the finder; that makes it *real* easy to add some hierarchy to the dock.

And I also agree with most of the ArsTechnica suggestions/issues -- except for the comment on it obscuring windows... its called Auto-Hide! Unless you are a newbie, Auto-Hide should be on!!

So, with a few tweaks and a few menus added, I think the Dock will be the ultimate solution to one of the most fundamental issues for a window system.

Cheers.

Jamesa - I think we're talking about different things, or else you misunderstood my idea.

I was talking about minimizing an application's window to its own picture in the Dock, which would help the problem of too much "minimized waste". Then, so the user could tell if an app had something minimized (or, if so, how many things minimized), there could be the number of minimized items for that app on the icon, or below the icon, or in the upper corner...you get the point.

And, using the original idea of the post...Control-clicking on the icon would then bring a popup menu with the tiltles of the minimized documents/folders. OR, it could produce a popup "icon picture list" above the icon...although that's probably going too far....... OR, you could have the option........

greg

------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

[This message has been edited by ShortcutToMoncton (edited 10-12-2000).]

To be brief

Its how you use it. Split your applications into folders, if you have so many. I have the whole apple menu from os9 in one folder and the os9 desk top in another. Therefore it take a few moves to get those +50 items.

Contextual menu definately.

Combine those and the dock will be unsupasable.

Even apple menu is a pain when opening file from within a program HD to systems folder to apple menu....

Originally posted by ShortcutToMoncton:
Jamesa - I think we're talking about different things, or else you misunderstood my idea.

I was talking about minimizing an application's window to its own picture in the Dock, which would help the problem of too much "minimized waste". Then, so the user could tell if an app had something minimized (or, if so, how many things minimized), there could be the number of minimized items for that app on the icon, or below the icon, or in the upper corner...you get the point.

And, using the original idea of the post...Control-clicking on the icon would then bring a popup menu with the tiltles of the minimized documents/folders. OR, it could produce a popup "icon picture list" above the icon...although that's probably going too far....... OR, you could have the option........

greg

actually, it's not a bad idea. Possibly another contextual menu to add to the list for when you control click?

say, if you have 5 windows open in OmniWeb, you could have a submenu in OmniWeb of "Open Browsers", which would have an arrow that split off to the right (ie like Control Panel in OS 9) that would allow you to see, and to choose, which one you open.

Yeah, I must have misunderstood. It's quite a good idea.


[This message has been edited by jamesa (edited 10-13-2000).]

Yes, you could do that too. I was talking about just a popup menu list of all the minimized windows, but I suppose you could do whatever you wanted with it.

However, you'd have to be careful, because adding too many things would be counterproductive - I mean, Apple's not coding for the world here, so things like "Open Browser > Get Plugin > etc... " shouldn't be expected. I would think just a simple CTRL-click should bring up the minimized windows in list or pic form.

Otherwise, Apple would have to allow access by the program's designers to the Dock code, to incorporate any app-specific menus that it would need......

greg

------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

The "always visible" Dock _can_ save me a click compared to using the Apple or Application menu for the same functions. And since the Dock's icons are a bigger target there is also a speed advantage in selecting. But I can't imagine ever having a monitor that was big enough that I'd want to waste the bottom of the screen on the Dock. Nor is the auto-hide feature (aka "auto-interfer") a practical alternative because of it's annoying habit of getting in the way.

However, if the Dock is moved to the left, then auto-hide will work. It won't be perfect but it will substantially reduce the number of times it gets in the way. Unfortunately then I lose some of the benefits of the "always visible" aspect of the Dock - seeing what apps are running, as well as some of the other visual cues that are bound to be added (like some of the cool ones listed above). Therefore I'd also like an option to have the Dock reserve a portion of the screen, vertical or horizontal, so that it can NEVER cover a window. And to minimize the degradation to the interface I would make the edge of the Dock a "snap to" boundary. That is, the edge of the Dock would offer just a little resistance to the cursor before moving over the threshold of a window to the Dock (optional of course). This will make working with icons, scrollbars, whatever, near the edge a little easier.

Originally posted by Eckhard:

It is nice to have different items in distinct areas. The Apple Menu with its hierarchical folders is unequalled in how many items you can store there for fast and space effiicient access.
The dock is fine for often used items.

Remember, for many of us the dock must now replace not only the Apple menu, but also tabbed windows, GoMac, etc. PLUS- a wonderful system of Contextual menus, aided by FinderPop, which in itself may be the biggest loss for me!
That's a tall order. Therefore, we need more!

I agree completely - that's why I suggested we have pop-up menus coming out of dock items.

And I your comment on the hierarchical folders made me realise - we could extend the functionality to folders as well. For example, right clicking (or holding down for two seconds or whatever) could bring up the equivalent of these folders, by showing the folder contents and allowing you to scroll through it.

Again, bringing back some of that old functionality that really is missing.

Originally posted by Brad Nelson:
The "always visible" Dock _can_ save me a click compared to using the Apple or Application menu for the same functions. And since the Dock's icons are a bigger target there is also a speed advantage in selecting. But I can't imagine ever having a monitor that was big enough that I'd want to waste the bottom of the screen on the Dock. Nor is the auto-hide feature (aka "auto-interfer") a practical alternative because of it's annoying habit of getting in the way.

Like the control strip, huh? Sometimes you really wanted it out of the way, and other times you'd prefer to have it visible. Maybe there should be a small tab coming out of the middle of the dock to auto hide it... or, again, like the control strip, perhaps a command stroke?

I've always assumed that the Dock would eventually be treated as the "bottom" of the screen, ie. the windows would just maximise to the edge of the Dock, so that scroll bars or resizers wouldn't get covered. Is this the obvious planned route, or not?

greg

------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

Originally posted by somebody:
Like the control strip, huh? Sometimes you really wanted it out of the way, and other times you'd prefer to have it visible. Maybe there should be a small tab coming out of the middle of the dock to auto hide it... or, again, like the control strip, perhaps a command stroke?

It seems to me that if Apple allows popup windows in the dock, the dock will become exactly like both the apple menu, you could put an alias of your hard drive in there and navigate through it, as well as the control strip, a program could easily be written to pop up with user chosen modules like the control strip currently has. Click and hold, control click, right click, whatever would invoke the control click. Then where would the difference be? I think its a great idea.

This sounds like the Windows task bar to me...

Actually I think the Windows task bar solves all these problems that you're talking about. I'll probably be flamed for this but please remember it's just an opinion...


What do we want to do?

Launch apps
Launch documents
Switch between open apps
Switch between open windows
Access vast amounts of apps and docs (some of us)
Access frequently used system preferences (like sound volume)
See the time/date


What don't we want?

Something unarranged and cluttered
Something that is big and gets in the way
Something that is slow and ugly
Something that is difficult to use for beginners/pros


And why do I think the task bar solves these problems?

Well for starters it has the Start menu that works like the Apple menu (with a few exceptions some good some bad) and for people who don't like it; don't use it. You can have shortcuts to applications either as small icons in the bar or as icons with text in the menu. It can hold shortcuts to documents and folders. It is a place for all windows minimized or not (all open apps that is) and it's a place for control strip like modules.
All these things (shortcuts, the menu, windows, the control strip) have their own place on the bar clearly separated. The bar is small and it never gets in the way since it isn't part of the screen that windows and apps can use. It's pretty straightforward and easy to use.

I don't say it's perfect but I do like it a lot more than the dock. Here is what I like, what I don't like and what I think could be improved.

+
It's small
It doesn't get in the way
I can manipulate the way it looks and behaves (placement, what panels should be in it)
It has an "apple menu"
The minimized windows have popup-menus so you can manipulate them and some apps extend this functionality so you can almost run the whole program from the start bar.
It holds all windows not just minimized windows so it's easy to switch between them even when they are layered

-
It doesn't "use" fit's law at all for example the start menu should be in the lower left corner to the pixel but it's 1 pixel up and 1 pixel to the right (depending on where you have placed the bar)
It doesn't implement drag and drop to the fullest (but you can drag stuff onto the menu, which then opens and lets you place things inside it which is very nice)
It doesn't work like I want it to when resized
It doesn't look as good as the dock

Improvements

Fix all the negative stuff
Separate the apps from the docs. Apps are easy to see even as a 16*16 icon since all apps have different icons but documents haven’t so there is room for improvement there.
Maybe place the trash inside it like on the dock?
More visual feedback so beginners can see where things goes when minimized and so on (as an option of course who would want an animations for minimizing windows?

If these things would be made it would be everything I ever wanted of a dock like utility. It would be really really good. But I guess that's only me... Some things would have to be remade for it to work the Mac way for example the idea of having an open app with no open windows etc.

And while on the subject "What's good with Windows" I must say it's nice to have a maximize button that actually behaves like it should (it maximizes windows!) and a minimize button that doesn't show me a small movie every time I hit it (the genie effect, ok it will probably be an option in the final release of X but anyway).

Though it may seem like I want Apple to replace the Dock with a Windows task bar that isn't the case, what I really want is an API for making Dock like applications. Let third parties create replacements to the Dock and make it easy to access all open apps, windows, everything so that making good looking dock/task bar clones a breeze for developers.

And did I mention that the task bar has a clock?

/Gabbe - flames to gabriel@swipnet.se

Woah, I think that's taking it a bit too far!

I think the dock is theoretically a good idea. It's the implementation that will decide whether it's really useful or just a pain.

Personally, I think Apple should allow a lot more personal choice to come into it. For example, users should be able to set whether they want it centred, left-aligned or right-aligned. There should be a keystoke to hide it/show it.

There could be a variety of other "options" provided for it - and this would allow people to customise to their heart's content. I think users would complain less, because it would allow the dock to comply with each individuals' tastes and preferences.

I'm still hoping Apple will introduce the suggestion I've made. You'd be able to do a whole lot of app-specific stuff - and it would stop it from being nothing but a glorified task bar

One thing I gotta point out to you is that, in all likelihood, Apple will not allow much choice in the matter of customization.

They are building an OS that is designed from the ground up to be newbie-friendly. Giving us a multitude of choices would probably be counter-productive, since that is exactly what makes things confusing. Mabye they'll have "advanced user" options, but I'd be surprised.

I agree. Let the third party programs do all the customization for now; I'd rather if Apple just delivered a solid OS that is consistent and follows all the basic "rules" of intuitiveness and UI. If I want to add some kind of special gizmo that i like, then let me do it - just make the OS so that it is usable with minimal headaches. They'll never please everyone - we al know that now.....

Later, they'll start adding stuff on - much of OS 9 was originally shareware addons. However, that's all good - you can do that later. I just want a good OS now......

greg



------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

Although I'm not missing the Apple menu in X (yet), I would indeed like the control clicking in the dock. There's a lot of potential in the idea. No more switching to the Finder (or Desktop) to empty the trash.
Another idea; dragging icons from the dock onto Open File dialogs. Like when it asks which program to use to open a certain file, just drag the app on the open file dialog, so you wouldn't have to navigate and get lost in the directory structure of OS X.

Originally posted by Evinyatar:
Although I'm not missing the Apple menu in X (yet), I would indeed like the control clicking in the dock. There's a lot of potential in the idea. No more switching to the Finder (or Desktop) to empty the trash.
Another idea; dragging icons from the dock onto Open File dialogs. Like when it asks which program to use to open a certain file, just drag the app on the open file dialog, so you wouldn't have to navigate and get lost in the directory structure of OS X.

yeah, I like it. submit it to apple, if you haven't already

I got a palpable thrill when I heard SJ talk of this feature being added because of user feedback.

Heheh! Who said Apple doesn't listen?

Any corporation that intends to survive in the long run (meaning 'another 5 years' in today's economy) has GOT to learn to listen to customers... And anticipate customers.
It only benefits Apple to monitor forum and keep personnel listening to customers.
5,000,000 heads are better than one

The pop-up feature was one of the first things I suggested to Apple back in September. It's so mind-numbingly obvious it shouldn't have even required our input.

Now if they can just support drag-n-drop to items within the pop-ups...

Originally posted by Milio:
The pop-up feature was one of the first things I suggested to Apple back in September. It's so mind-numbingly obvious it shouldn't have even required our input.

Now if they can just support drag-n-drop to items within the pop-ups...

Actually, it's so mind-numbingly obvious that it probably *didn't* require our input. It just wasn't finished in time for the Public Beta.

Either that, or they keep revealing a couple details at a time to give us a more obvious feeling of "progress."
After all, what's the average user watching the keynote coverage gonna see as progress:
The completion of some arcane but absolutely vital plumbing, or
the addition of pop-up menus, making the Dock more usable?

The latter may be trivial by comparison (for the OS as a whole), but it's gonna make the bigger impression of "progress" to the outside world.

I think drag-n-drop is a no-brainer that will definitely be added eventually, if not by March 24.

-chris.

Actually, it's so mind-numbingly obvious that it probably *didn't* require our input. It just wasn't finished in time for the Public Beta.

Either that, or they keep revealing a couple details at a time to give us a more obvious feeling of "progress."
After all, what's the average user watching the keynote coverage gonna see as progress:
The completion of some arcane but absolutely vital plumbing, or
the addition of pop-up menus, making the Dock more usable?

I have to agree with you there. Apple more than likely is showing the bare minimum of OS X to the public to satisfy users. When they finally drop OS X in March, most if not all the features everyone has been asking for will be in there and we'll all be amazed at how much more advanced the final is as compared to the public betas or developer's builds. They're not showing their full hand just yet...

[gorgonzola]

Apple is *all* about marketing.

This OS has been in production for so ridiculously long that it would laughable if they couldn't come up with a better dock than the 1H39/2E14 dock.

I'm sure that they'll keep the builds of OS X in the last month of development (basically for all of March and some of Feb) under tight wraps. I think they'll show 4K17 again at Tokyo, and the big launch with all the debugging, all the optimization, all the features will be implemented. Note that OS X is feature frozen in that they're not accepting any *new* ideas as features; however, they may not be finished implementing features that they had thought of.

I think that they have a long way to go on the optimization front, and that OS X Final will run significantly faster with a significantly different feature set. Think about it:

The long-awaited final release of Mac OS X: We're going to let you use the thing you saw at MWSF, only now it's faster and costs $130!

Please.

They have some hands that I'm sure they're keeping hidden from developers too. Apple is not oblivious to Hotline -- the fact that they don't care about 4K17 shows that they have the latest and greatest under wraps. Everyone has seen 4K17 -- who cares if it's out?

I don't know what to expect on March 24, which is *exactly* what Apple wants.

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it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

Completely agreed, except:

OS X is *not* feature-frozen by any means.

Anything that is suggested now and is viable will be considered for inclusion.

Do not imply that there is such a thing as a true "Final" Release. Any features not implemented for Version 1.0 will make it into 1.1, 1.5, or 2.0, etc. Apple developers on these fora have already mentioned stuff (i. e. a number of AppleScript options) that *are* being built but *won't* make it into the initial release.

I just think that point has to be made since people are starting to act like it's too late now anyway, which of course is ridiculous.

OS X won't stop on March 24th.

-chris.

<img src="http://teleporka.virtualave.net/osx1.jpg"><p>
<img src="http://teleporka.virtualave.net/osx2.jpg">
<p>
sound volume control for each application and
icon text wrap
2 features that i request.

<img src="http://teleporka.virtualave.net/osx1.jpg"><p>
<img src="http://teleporka.virtualave.net/osx2.jpg">
<p>
sound volume control for each application and
icon text wrap
2 features that i request.