[slugslugslug]

Been looking around for details on this but can't find any. Can I stick an Airport Extreme card in my < 2-month-old TiBook and get 54 Mbps w/802.11g hardware? For that matter, can you put old Airport cards in the new 12" PowerBooks?

Seems like it'd be odd for Apple to make these cards work w/only some of its very-current lineup, but from the pictures I've seen, the connectors on the cards look very different.

I have a SuperDrive 15" TiBook w/an airport card, but since I didn't get around to buying an AP/router yet, I'm wondering if I can swap out the card for an 'Extreme,' get an 802.11g router, and wander around my house getting high-speed Wi-Fi networking..

anybody got the scoop?

[rlotz]

The page:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...More=M8881LL/A

Says, under "System Requirements," that you'll need a Mac with a mini-PCI socket. The older Powerbooks and exisint iBooks use a pcmcia format connector.

I don't know the specs on the internal pcmcia sockets in the iBooks and powerbooks but if they are 32bit then there is a a chance that we may see Apple provide 802.11g card upgrades. If they are only 16bit then the upgrade probably wouldn't be worth it.

[ghporter]

Mini-PCI slots are pretty new to a lot of people. Their connector looks like a SO-DIMM socket, and the physical form factor of the cards is roughly 2.5 X 2.5 inches. In other words folks, this is not something that will fit in an AirPort card socket, or anything I've ever seen or heard of in a currently available Mac of any kind. Now, this new 17" screen PowerBook may have something for it...

[PHoynak]

This may be a dumb question but here go's....

Does anyone know if the new Airport Extreme's USB printer sharing function will work in the 802.11b mode? If it does I am sold. I won't be upgrading my Macs anytime soon but if it works for $199 it is a good deal.

Also would my Windows machine be able to "see" the printer hooked to the base station? I currently connect to my graphite ABS with a Linskys USB Wireless adapter and it works great.

[slugslugslug]

Originally posted by rlotz:
The page:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...More=M8881LL/A

Says, under "System Requirements," that you'll need a Mac with a mini-PCI socket. The older Powerbooks and exisint iBooks use a pcmcia format connector.

I don't know the specs on the internal pcmcia sockets in the iBooks and powerbooks but if they are 32bit then there is a a chance that we may see Apple provide 802.11g card upgrades. If they are only 16bit then the upgrade probably wouldn't be worth it.

Well, shucks. I somehow doubt Apple, being Apple, is gonna make the AE cards to fit the older AIrport slots, then.

Now, something else to consider: I vaguely remember once reading that you could modify a 3rd-party Cardbus (i.e. PCMCIA, PC Card) 802.11b card (an Orinoco, maybe?) to fit in a Mac's Airport card slot with no extra drivers. Anyone have any idea if this'd be possible w/a 3rd-party 802.11g card, then?

tia. y.

[ghporter]

Slug,

It's only likely if Apple does two things. First, they'll have to decide to put out a PCMCIA card 802.11g product, and second, they'll have to OEM it (that is buy an unbranded product from the manufacturer and label it "Apple") from somebody who has Mac drivers already-preferably supplied in an update to the OS. My money is on two big "no" answers here, at least for the forseeable future. Further, I sincerely doubt that the second part of the equation, the use of an OEM product that's already supported in Mac OS, is going to ever happen-the technology for 802.11g is just too different for existing drivers to handle it properly, if at all.

[ebolla]

if apple wants to make any money off airport extreme then they need to release a card compatable with older macs
its embarassing that not even the 15 powerbook can use this new technology
people arnt going to buy new machines just for faster wireless
802.11g isnt even completely ratified yet
hopefully apple is just waiting abit to release a backwards compatible card
maybe they hope it will sell more powerbooks in the short run if this is a unique feature

[itai195]

I'm pretty sure the printer sharing would work in 802.11b mode, but it only works with Macs. I wouldn't get an AirPort Base Station just for printer sharing, you can get an sub-$80 printer server that will work with PCs and Macs instead.

[slugslugslug]

Originally posted by GHPorter:
Slug,

It's only likely if Apple does two things. First, they'll have to decide to put out a PCMCIA card 802.11g product, and second, they'll have to OEM it (that is buy an unbranded product from the manufacturer and label it "Apple") from somebody who has Mac drivers already-preferably supplied in an update to the OS. My money is on two big "no" answers here, at least for the forseeable future. Further, I sincerely doubt that the second part of the equation, the use of an OEM product that's already supported in Mac OS, is going to ever happen-the technology for 802.11g is just too different for existing drivers to handle it properly, if at all.

Sigh.. Yeah that's the answer I was worried I'd get. It seems like it'd suck to have to fill up my PC Card slot w/an 802.11g card instead of using an intenal. Although for now I guess I could get a g router/AP for forward compatibility and just use my b card with it. Considering I'd be using it more for using my Cable internet than for LAN stuff.

Thanks very much for the insightful info, Glenn.

[AlbertWu]

according to the 802.11g spec, all you really need is a firmware update to your card... i wonder if apple will ever release that.

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by AlbertWu:
according to the 802.11g spec, all you really need is a firmware update to your card... i wonder if apple will ever release that.

Do you mean you can use the same antenna as the old 802.11b for the 802.11g protocol??

If so, that means it is theorically possible for all those old AirPort base station to be 802.11g capable with a firmware update (but I doubt Apple would release a firmware update for the old base station when they are actively promoting their new extreme base station... )

[ghporter]

Theory and reality in product development are often poles apart. For example, while it is theoretically possible to upgrade a "b" card to work with "g" through a firmware update, that assumes that there are no hardware design choices in the "b" card that implement "b"-only protocols.

One of the biggest differences between the two is the spread spectrum techinque. Since this is pretty much the heart of the radio section of the device, it's usually implemented in hardware rather than software-for speed, reliability, and usually also for cost savings.

Yes, the antenna for a "b" card should work with a "g" device, since they use the same spectrum, though I haven't seen any specs that detail exactly what frequencies the "g" standard will use, so an existing antenna may not work as well with a new card as it does with an existing card.

Another consideration is the card's data path. The new cards will no doubt implement as wide a data path as possible, while there are a lot of "b" cards around (particularly for the Mac market) that are still 16-bit devices. It would be hard to take advantage of the higher data rate available in the new standard with a 16-bit card.

Finally, a 54Mbps card would be much more susceptible to signal degradation due to interference from outside sources. Microwave ovens, 2.4GHz cordless phones, etc., all cause current users problems. Think about how much somebody will scream when making microwave popcorn trashes their throughput from about (theoretically) 30Mbps down to 5 or less !

[andretan]

Just curious, why didn't Apple make a PCMCIA based 802.11g card like the Airport card?

Was it due to engineering limits? Or was it due to new technology and stuff?

Will future 802.11g cards (be it from a PC manufacturer or from Apple) be PCMCIA based or mini-PCI based?

Thanks,
Andre

[HouseSold]

Having spent an entire day trying to set up a network, I spoke with several knowledgeable techs who said that the book is still unwritten on 802.11g.

I happened across this good overview on connectivity standards for busses:

http://www.quatech.com/Application_O...m-over-pci.htm

Also a thorough review on one currently released 802.11g setup that reportedly uses the same Broadcom chip that Apple is using in their 802.11g wireless. Some good technical data for you 'techies'.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/FAQ-1...tworking-0.php

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/Revie...D-WBRG54-1.php

The folks at Buffalo state online and onphone that they will meet/match any final draft of 802.11g, even if it means replacing the hardware you purchase from them. Hopefully any finalization can be done in downloadable firmware, such as Apple does occasionally. BTW: They have some Apple drivers available also.

http://www.buffalotech.com/wireless/index.php

We have been referring to the 2 new Powerbooks respectfully as TinBooks.

In closing, The true throughput (on paper) appears to be how Apple is approaching 802.11g; with the PCI mini bus. It appears (on paper) that this will give more headroom for the standard as it becomes polished. According to some of the graphs in the review (above link), the current 802.11g output seems to peak at 22 mbps, even though it is 54 mbps capable. How many standards ever reach their max stated output? The current achieved ranges with the earlier TiBook (pre-TinBook) Airport seems barely acceptable. We owners of earlier 802 devices might have to install roof top antennas to be content. Who will use and how will anyone use 54 mbps?

[rlotz]

Originally posted by GHPorter:

Yes, the antenna for a "b" card should work with a "g" device, since they use the same spectrum, though I haven't seen any specs that detail exactly what frequencies the "g" standard will use, so an existing antenna may not work as well with a new card as it does with an existing card.

Finally, a 54Mbps card would be much more susceptible to signal degradation due to interference from outside sources. Microwave ovens, 2.4GHz cordless phones, etc., all cause current users problems. Think about how much somebody will scream when making microwave popcorn trashes their throughput from about (theoretically) 30Mbps down to 5 or less !

However, 802.11g used OFDM where 11b uses DSS. OFDM significantly improves multipath performance and handles interference and noise much better. Also, 11g uses the same frequency as 11b, so yes, the same antenna will work.

Besides, 54Mb is the theoretical maximum of 11g. Just as 11Mb was the theoretical max for 11b. However, in real world situations with minimum wireless clients 11b doesn't give you much over 3-5Mb at the IP layer. I suspect real through put on 11g will similarly give you a real bandwidth at around 75% of maximum.

BTW, if anyone has 11g and wants to test it side by side with 11b I suggest Iperf. You can get it out of fink or OpenDarwin package. It will push TCP acroess the wire (or wireless) as fast as possible and reports very accurate results (make sure the client and server are the same version). It's free and available for most OSs. Google for it if you want it.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by andretan:
Just curious, why didn't Apple make a PCMCIA based 802.11g card like the Airport card?

Was it due to engineering limits? Or was it due to new technology and stuff?

Will future 802.11g cards (be it from a PC manufacturer or from Apple) be PCMCIA based or mini-PCI based?

Thanks,
Andre

First, I don't want to sound rude, but Apple doesn't make products for the "gee whiz!" factor; they make them to make money. They could easily have made a "g" card that would fit in the AirPort slot, but for this initial release they chose to come out with a mini-PCI product. It was almost without question a marketing decision, not anything to do with technology.

I believe that there are already 802.11g PCMCIA cards on the market, though all I've seen have been in ads aimed at PC users.