[mikerally]

Airport Extreme incompatible with some 802.11b Access Points

Expect poor performance, if not to be constantly dropped off the network - I have confirmed with another person that Airport Extreme cards cannot operate correctly with Negear's 802.11b ME102 Access Point, there have been a couple of other incompatibilities with other brand 802.11b Access Points filed in Apple's Airport Support Forum.

You have been warned.

[ghporter]

The "G" standard is supposed to be backward compatible with "B." A "G" device is supposed to fall back to 11Mbps when running off a "B" access point. Whether or not current firmware and software make this happen is the real issue here.

On the other hand, you can set up an iMac with an (old) AirPort card and not stay connected with many access points because of configuration problems, with symptoms just as you've described. Have you explored all the 802.11b hassles, just to make sure it's an AirPort Extreme problem?

[mikerally]

The "G" standard is supposed to be backward compatible with "B." A "G" device is supposed to fall back to 11Mbps when running off a "B" access point. Whether or not current firmware and software make this happen is the real issue here.

Yeah, the word here is is Supposed to. However 802.11g is not a certified standard yet, the currently shipping products are based on the draft specification.

Not only that, but there have been a lot of negative reports about the currently shipping 802.11g products, being particulary flakey.

I know it's not my Powerbook G4 Aluminium, I brought it into the office where I work which has an Apple Snow (Dual Ethernet) Airport Basestation, and it works perfectly fine with that.

I also know it's not my home Wireless network, I have an iBook with an Airport card the works both on my home Wireless network and my office Airport network perfectly fine.

My network must be setup correctly if my iBook works on it with no problems whatsoever, and I've had my friends Powerbook G4 Titanium around too and had that up and running on the house network within 5 minutes - the network has never given me any problems in the 10 months that have been running - and even if I have my Powerbook G4 Aluminium and iBook on the network at the same time - the iBooks works fine, the Powerbook G4 Aluminium does not - they both work fine at the office.

Finally I searched the Apple Airport Extreme Discussion Forums and someone with a Netgear ME102 and an Powerbook G4 Aluminium with Airport Extreme had *exactly* the same problem as me.

So after all that, do you still doubt me?

[ghporter]

This sounds like a mission! What 802.11g/802.11b access points have you encountered (in addition to the Negear 802.11b ME102) that don't work together? Not just you, mikerally, but everyone. Let's put together a list! Only equipment you've seen fail to function with AirPort Extreme, or 802.11g equipment that fails to function with AirPort or other 802.11b equipment. That list could make some vendors sit up and take notice...

[mikerally]

Check the front page of MacNN (the Powerbook G4 contiuing reader reports) - the Linksys WAP11 (exactly the same hardware as the ME102) has the same problem also. They are both based on the Prism2 chipset, Airport Extreme is based on the Broadcom chipset - I've been struggling searching the net for any reports of incompatibilities here.

The thing is, people are mistaking this for poor Airport Reception, you will connect to the basestation fine, no problem at all, what will happen is that you will be continually dropped, suffer heavy packet loss, suffer from stalling, and finally have a maximum data rate of 100k/sec. Bad, very bad.

This is not good, I'd encourage people to post feedback here, we need to make a list...

Will post this info to Macintouch aswell at some point.

[MaxPower2k3]

This is good to know, because i was planning on getting the Linksys 802.11b router. There arent the same issues when using Linksys's G router, are there? I don't want to spend $40 more thinking im avoiding the issue and end up with the same problems as the B router.

Also, do D-Link routers have this problem? I can get one of those if they work better than netgear or Linksys

[mikerally]

Ok this problem only seems to be so far with 802.11b Access Points based based on the Amtel Prism 2 Chipset.

These include the:

- Netgear ME102
- SMC MC2655W
- Linksys WAP11 (first version only - this does not affect versions 2.2 and later as they are based on an entirely different chipset)

So this does not affect all Linksys Access points, but be wary of buying a WAP11 if you aren't sure what hardware revision it is.

This does not affect third party 54G access points.

This does not affect commericial/industrial basestations such as you would find in Starbucks etc - you will be able to use them fine - I'm sure the problem is to do with the Prism 2 chipset from Amtel, not Airport Extreme.

There is a workaround, download and install this firmware update:
http://www.andrewhakman.dhs.org/wap11/firmware/1.4j1/
(which will work on any of the above mentioned access points)

This firmware update will make things bearable, with it I no longer get dropped connections, but still suffer from packet loss, but my Access Point is 100% reliable now - I can guarantee a file to copy sucessfully, even if it does take about 5 minutes to copy a 30MB file (about 1/3rd or the speed of my iBook with Airport) even though the Powerbook is sitting directly next to the Basestation, I now know that I can at least copy my MP3s from my PC OK now.

[bwmcadams]

See my previous post with a bunch of details about my PowerBook experience for a more detailed explanation:
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=144984

The brief and short of it - I can download files internal to my network from my Unix box at ~250K/sec from my XP box with a Wavelan PCMCIA. My 12" PB with Airport Extreme gets the same files from the same box at a MAXIMUM of 90K/second.

I am going against a Belkin Access Point.

The thing I would like to point out - both Linksys and Belkin use the Intersil Prism chipset for their 802.11b support. Is it possible AE just doesn't communicate well with Prism chips?

[mikerally]

The thing I would like to point out - both Linksys and Belkin use the Intersil Prism chipset for their 802.11b support. Is it possible AE just doesn't communicate well with Prism chips?

Not sure where to nail it, but thanks for including Belkin in the list. I really really wish more people would participate in this thread, it's being largely ignored - which is pretty much a shame.

Anyway, anything based on the Prism chipset seems to have a problem, don't know if it's the chipset or firmware.

I seriously doubt that any of the manufacturers are going to pull their finger out on this one for Apple (it's the prism based routers at fault not Airport Extreme).

So take heed of this warning, avoid these Access Points, and if you have one and plan using Airport Extreme - the best answer is to sell it and get another Access Point

I'm waiting for the Linksys 54G to come out here in the UK, I can sell my Netgear for £60 - buy the Linksys for £100 - so it only costs me £40 to upgrade.

[bwmcadams]

I am presently on the phone with AppleCare, trying to resolve enrollment issues (in which my account got crosslinked with someone elses and it's all screwed up at the moment).

I asked in passing about the Airport Extreme -> Belkin (in my case), mentioning a bunch of other 12" users are having problems talking to third party base stations.

Their answer? "Well, er, that's not an Apple product so I can't help you configure it".

"You don't understand, I don't want help configuring it. I want to know why the Dell laptop sitting next to me gets 3x the throughput."

"If you have a 2.4 ghz phone, try turning it off"

It goes on like this for 5 minutes or so until it finally dawns on him that it truly is a problem with the AE card talking to the AP, and not interference, range, etc.

"Well sir, I would recommend then that you upgrade to an Airport Extreme base station so you can surf at a full blazing 54Mbps" (Yes, he said '54'.... I am sure of it...)

I guess it's in Apple's best interest right now to make sure we buy their base station. Unfortunately, this does settle my decision of whether to buy the $130 Linksys Wireless-G station, or a $199 Airport Extreme... I'm unfortunately going to have to go with the Airport Extreme to make sure everything works. I just hope my Windows laptop (now property of my wife) doesn't have issues talking to THAT.

Although, keep in mind... according to the news out there, both Apple and Linksys are using the SAME chipset for their base stations for Wireless-G...it's not intersil this time around (I wish I could remember the name of the company). So we might be OK after all. Any linksys Wireless-G base station owners out there?

- Brendan (whose considering a trip to the Short Hills Apple Store tommorrow to take advantage of his 10% off coupon...)

[ghporter]

One common issue with the Prism chipset is that it ain't brand new. There hasn't been new firmware released for the original WAP11 since January 15 2002, well before anyone thought of bringing out a product based on the (as yet non-final) 802.11g standard. Since there are now a good number of "G" products, it's possible that the vendors may see a need to upgrade their firmware to handle the oddities of the "G" cards in their "B" compatibility mode. I hope.

[bigsy]

I can give some very limited results for other Prism-based access points. (Limited because my new PowerBook/AE has been shipped back to Apple for a replacement due to a sticking trackpad button ).

I have 2 access points. A ZyXEL ZyWALL 10W, fitted with a ZyXEL ZyAIR B-100 PC Card (Prism 3), and an Intel 2011 (Prism II).

I can confirm that the AE connects to both access points. I was unable to test the Intel any further but initial tests with the ZyXEL in optimum conditions in close proximity to the AP show a mean transfer rate during FTP (15 MB file from a LAN server) of around 280-290 KB/s. This compares with 440 KB/s for my Dell notebook fitted with an Avaya (Orinoco) Gold Card in the same position. I noticed that during FTP the Airport Extreme seems to 'stutter' more. The transfer had bursts of up to 350-360 KB/s but would then almost stop briefly.

Both cards had 128-bit WEP enabled.

Whenever I get the replacement in a couple of weeks I'll conduct more extensive tests, including range, if people are interested.

[mikerally]

Whenever I get the replacement in a couple of weeks I'll conduct more extensive tests, including range, if people are interested.

Much appriciated, be sure to post your finding in this thread

[xenopdx]

My 12in PB works great with our D-Link DWL-1000AP Access Point at home, as well as my school's 802.11b [unknown] wireless system.

[bigsy]

Well my replacement PowerBook with AE has arrived. I have spent this afternoon testing it with 2 Prism-based access points and the results are NOT good

Access points were a ZyXEL ZyWALL 10W, fitted with a ZyXEL ZyAIR B-100 PC Card (Prism 3), and this time an Intel 2011B (Prism 2.5). I tested both separately using 128-bit WEP, MAC filtering and ESSID hidden.

As I reported earlier, throughput in close proximity to an AP was not as good as with an 802.11b card (Avaya Gold). However, much worse was that the range obtained with the Airport Extreme was extremely poor, with the signal disappearing after 4-5 m line-of-sight. This is in sharp contrast to the Avaya card in my Dell which was able to pick up an excellent or good signal from the Intel AP throughout the building.

I admit to being new to the Mac. Perhaps there is something obvious I am missing in its setup? Additionally the Intel AP has a myriad of potential tweaks and some adjustments may help out, but I'm not going to embark on this without advice as it works perfectly well with 802.11b cards.

[bigsy]

As a follow-up, I borrowed a LinkSys WAP11 Access Point (version 2.2, firmware 1.1). This does not have a Prism-based chipset.
It is no better than either of the two access points I have already tried. Signal drops off to nothing within about 4m on the horizontal and isn't picked up one floor beneath wooden floors.

Is it possible I have a duff AE card?

I'm getting fed up with this. I don't want to have to buy an AE BaseStation. Are there any USB 802.11b solutions that will work with the PowerBook 12"?

[mavreela]

I have a Netgear FM114P WAP and was a little upset to find it wouldn't work with my 12" PB with AE card.

After trying several configurations involving the FM114P and a Win ME machine with an ActionTec USB 802.11b adapter running ICS for broadcasting, and a Dell laptop with ActionTec PCMCIA card, and a Pico laptop with Belkin PCMCIA card, and the PB of course, with both wired and wirless connections I deduced that the problem has to be with the FM114P-AE connection as every piece of hardware seems to work correctly.

And a quick look on Google reveals the FM114P has a PRISM 2.5 chip set, so that's another one to add to the list.

The question now is what to do next, the FM114P is not even a year old and I rather like it so should I wait and hope someone releases a fix, or go out and buy something new. As nice as a 'G' WP would be, I don't see myself upgrading the PC cards anytime soon so it would be a wasted technology.

[bigsy]

Originally posted by bigsy:

Is it possible I have a duff AE card?

To follow up on this, I took the PB along to the local Mac dealer who had an old model Base Station running (there were no AE Base Stations in stock). Signal level was poor to this. We ran MacStumbler and no more than 2m from the BaseStation I was getting signal levels of 20-25. A TiBook beside me was scoring around 60 using an original Airport card. Looks like there is something wrong with my AE card and/or antenna.

A phone call to Tech Support has resulted in replacement number 2 being shipped out. That'll make it 3 12" PBs inside 3 weeks......

[nealley]

Add the NetGear MR314 Wireless Router to the list of 3rd party routers that are incompatible with airport extreme cards...

[lucca]

I have a Linksys 4 port Router and was using a PBG3 (Pismo) with no problems. Since buying an ALG4 w/Airport Extreme I have been unable to connect to the router. While turning settings on & off I would get a connection but it would drop off immediately after a partial web page download.

If anyone has any suggestions or questions let me know.

Thanks!

[miwok]

Hey,

I'm really glad I found this post because I've been experiencing some of the same problems as described in previous posts. I have a 12" Albook w/ Airport Extreme and I've noticed extremely slow download speeds from my school's 802.11b network (Univ. Maryland, CP).

I ran a couple of speed tests to see what I was downloading at (dslreports.com , bandwidthplace.com) and I'm averaging about 200-300 kbps compared to my friend using his dell laptop next to me with 1.6 Mbps.

I went to the Apple store to see if they could help and they ran the tests on their network but they got great speeds (I'm assuming because they're using the Airport Extreme base stations?) and so they blamed it on my school. I went to my school's tech. help desk and they're supposed to get back to me. I'll ask them what brand/type they're using and show them this post and put up any info I get later.

Sorry I haven't really added anything new to this post, just wanted to share my experience. I'll post the info I get from the help desk as soon as I get it.

I noticed that posts have kind of died off for this thread...have people found a solution or are they just bearing with it?

[spiff41398]

Add the Netgear MR814 v2 to the list of incompatible routers for Airport Extreme.

[OpenStep]

Dell TrueMobile 1184 too, when my dad uses it for internet access it crawls and the network sometimes disappears (his iMac has AirPort Extreme). My PBG4 with regular AirPort works fine with it.

[jtbowden]

Linksys BEFW11S4 v.4 does not work properly with my 17" Powerbook.

I can connect fine and everything works great until I try to put my PB to sleep and then wake it up again. As soon as it tries to reconnect, the whole router seizes up and EVERYONE loses their connection. Its rather annoying.

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, the workaround is to leave your computer awake as long as possible, and when you need to wake it up, you have to wake it up and then manually unplug the power from the router, wait a few seconds and then plug it back in. Beautiful isn't it?

[paganini]

Glad this thread exists...

have 2Wire Homeportal 1000SW (common new "free" router from SBC, earthlink, etc). been working just fine with my Pismo with "classic" airport (well, the range is crap, but hey, it was a cheap AP).

girlfriend just got her new 12" powebook with AE. It couldn't even see the 2Wire until AirPort 3.1.1 drivers were installed. Now, am able to see AP, but connection is not reliable.

With simple ping tests, between both powerbooks, right next to the router, I can 90% responses to the old airport card, with average response time around 5ms. The AirPort Extreme card can't get above 50% responses, with twice the average time on successful packets.

Still working out what chipset the 2Wire uses. Since its a promotional-only type router/AP, technical details have been hard to track down. And the ability to tweak wireless settings is very lacking. Even when dropping into "management" mode, there is nothing I can do to "throttle" down the wireless speed (as has been noted as a possible work around for the linksys router).

When I figure out what chipset the 2wire uses, i'll post it here.

[gsxrboy]

I am thinking of getting a NETGEAR DG824M, do any of you smart peeps know if this has any of the above probs?

Cheers for the help..

[onemilehigh]

I checked this forum, because I could not get a new 12 inch aluminum Powerbook to even recognize a wireless network using the DELL TrueMobile 1184 access point. I'm not talking about slow, it would not even show the network existed. This Powerbook was purchased at CompUSA, and we thought it was defective and got a new Airport Extreme card installed. Same thing, it could not even see the network (SSID).
These DELL 1184 accesses points are very common and work with everything else I've seen. They work with my Ti Powerbook, my friend's iBook and Window laptops with all sorts of wireless cards.
I work for an ISP who installs wireless networks for clients. We finally tried DELL's new TrueMobile 2300 802.11b/g and it works with the Airport Extreme card in both B and G mode. My guess is that there's something incompatible in the Airport Extreme card that prevents it from working with some 802.11b access points.

[Ohenri]

Originally posted by spiff41398:
Add the Netgear MR814 v2 to the list of incompatible routers for Airport Extreme.

Just the news I wanted NOT to hear. I'm running that same one ahora @ home right now (Pimso+a.card). I have a pending purchase and I was already not impressed with being forced to use the AE card... esp now knowing that I'll have massive bottlenecking @ best, but likely no service. [sigh]

H!

[richardault]

Originally posted by GHPorter:
This sounds like a mission! What 802.11g/802.11b access points have you encountered (in addition to the Negear 802.11b ME102) that don't work together? SNIP...

Hi, I have been experiencing similar symptoms with my Netgear WG602 Access Point. Interestingly enough, my wife is using her laptop with a built in b card and not having any problems, except when I'm on the network with my Pbook. I have a brand spanking new 15in Powerbook, built in extreme and I get dropped off our net with extreme regularity. When I'm am running apps like iChat it becomes even more noticeable. I need to finish reading this thread before I ask for advice, but wanted the group to know I'm experiencing same/similar problems with the NETGEAR WG602 G Access Point.

[ginoledesma]

Add to the list Nokia A032 of not working with Airport Extreme. This WAP has been known to be picky, though.

[ginoledesma]

Originally posted by spiff41398:
Add the Netgear MR814 v2 to the list of incompatible routers for Airport Extreme.

I just want to clarify this... The Netgear MR814v2 (and v1) actually works with the Airport Extreme. My iBook G4/800 with Airport Extreme works pretty well with it. I've since replaced it with a Netgear WGR614v4, since its 802.11g and now supports WPA-SPK. The MR814v2 is a good router, though some people have complained about frequent disconnections.

[ClaraT]

Originally posted by ginoledesma:
I just want to clarify this... The Netgear MR814v2 (and v1) actually works with the Airport Extreme. My iBook G4/800 with Airport Extreme works pretty well with it. I've since replaced it with a Netgear WGR614v4, since its 802.11g and now supports WPA-SPK. The MR814v2 is a good router, though some people have complained about frequent disconnections.

I was glad to hear from an ibookG4/800 user on this topic. Sounds like the Powerbook people are having this problem.

I need to decide on 802.11b or 802.11g. Like ginoledesma I have the ibook G4/800 and will be using an airport extreme card. Was thinking aobut the Netgear MR 814 as so many positive results have been posted elsewhere. Any advice?

Also could someone explain the difference between an "access point" and a "wireless router"? I see these terms used in product descriptions.

thanks,

ClaraT

[ginoledesma]

Hi, Clara

I sent you a PM about your question. But to answer your other question here:

Also could someone explain the difference between an "access point" and a "wireless router"? I see these terms used in product descriptions.

An access point is basically a wireless "hub" that allows wireless clients to connect to it. It is, in essence, the equivalent of a switch/hub that you see with standard wired networking products. An access point can connect to another device that provides it Internet access. In that way, clients connected to that access point are able to access the network or Internet.

A "wireless router" on the other hand is essentially a 3-in-1 product: a switch, a wireless access point, and a router. A wireless router allows you to share an Internet connection (e.g. DSL/Cable broadband) with both wired and wireless clients. If you already have a router at home sharing your Internet connection, then a wireless router will allow wireless clients to join in.

I hope this helps.

[ClaraT]

Originally posted by ginoledesma:
Hi, Clara

I sent you a PM about your question. But to answer your other question here:



An access point is basically a wireless "hub" that allows wireless clients to connect to it. It is, in essence, the equivalent of a switch/hub that you see with standard wired networking products. An access point can connect to another device that provides it Internet access. In that way, clients connected to that access point are able to access the network or Internet.

A "wireless router" on the other hand is essentially a 3-in-1 product: a switch, a wireless access point, and a router. A wireless router allows you to share an Internet connection (e.g. DSL/Cable broadband) with both wired and wireless clients. If you already have a router at home sharing your Internet connection, then a wireless router will allow wireless clients to join in.

I hope this helps.

Thanks. Appreciate hearing from you.

So far the Netgear is doing ok. . sometimes I'm having problems sending email here at home and out at a hot spot which feels defeating. I've posted the details in another thread. And I'm avoiding getting on the phones with tech support because who is going to take responsibility? Verizon, Netgear or Apple? and I can't afford the time today.


ClaraT

[OwlBoy]

Hey!

Thanks for this thread!

I am also now having trouble with my Netgear MR814... I have full signal, but the connection drops out. I end up having to restart, and it works for awhile again...

This has started after a few months of great results... arg. I got it for $37 dollars though, so I guess I get what I pay for.

Maybe it's time to go to G.

bah, well... at least I know my Airport Card is prolly not just dying since the warranty is almost up.

-Owl

[fakeplasticspence]

I was curious how this G problem would affect other users on the network. would it slow there connection down also? because that has been my experience. my roommate just got a new imac and everyone using my linksys has been slowed down to a crawl. just asking if anyone knows. also I heard someone say that 10.3.3 affected his performance.

spence

[matrk]

while my newly purchased MR814v2 was easily set up for wired routing, the wireless part just didn't work... until i downloaded the latest firmware v5.03 from the netgear website and flashed the router.
Now my alu p'book airport xtreme seems to work smoothly with this netgear router; only thing left to do though is to get the WEP working just as smoothly.
anyone with clues on how to get WEP set up for airport xtreme to work with it??

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
Hey!

Thanks for this thread!

I am also now having trouble with my Netgear MR814... I have full signal, but the connection drops out. I end up having to restart, and it works for awhile again...

This has started after a few months of great results... arg. I got it for $37 dollars though, so I guess I get what I pay for.

Maybe it's time to go to G.

bah, well... at least I know my Airport Card is prolly not just dying since the warranty is almost up.

-Owl