[blackbird_1.0]

i was just wondering how much it'd cost?

[ghporter]

Here's the problem with a dedicated T1 line: it costs too bloody much! With a T1, the line is "dedicated," in that you have a direct connection through a separate pair of wires from your equipment to the "Internet cloud." That dedicated status costs a lot-my provider is SBC Communications, and they offer business T1 connections, but they don't bother to post the rates. Note that the data rate you get is 1.544Mbps uplink and downlink.

On the other hand, you can get a 1.5Mbps DSL connection (in most places in the U.S., anyway) for around $50 per month, or less. The tradeoff is that with this standard package, your uplink is lower. My package gets me "up to" 1.544Mbps download, with "up to" 128kbps upload. My speed tests show that I get actually about 1.2Mbps/135kbps. Since I don't operate a server for anything, this is cool. If I DID need to operate a server, there are packages available that give me more upload speed for more money per month. All of it still less than what a T1 would cost.

Cable access can be had with downstream rates of 3Mbps or higher (Optimum Online in the NYC area can go up to 10Mbps!!!).

The bottom line is that for what most of us want, a T1 is an extravagent expense, particularly when it's compared to the other broadband options available.

[blackbird_1.0]

sorry didn't mean to bring out so much anger, uts just the only good dsl provider for where i live is bellsouth, and they're trying to overcharge us anyway w/ our phone bill, (charging us for multiple line when we have only one,) and i figured a t1, though expensive wud be me answer everybody says thats its faster n all jus wondering...

[aaanorton]

Check this out.

[jarends]

With a T1, if you have to ask, its not for you.

In addition to the really expensive line costs, you have to buy a "real" router as well as other equipment.

You might not be able to get it installed in a residential area anyway.

A lot depends on the provider as well. A T1 isn't necessarily an "Internet Line." It's just a fairly beefy phone circuit. A lot of small/medium companies will get a point to point T1 line connecting different locations.

I believe a T1 can hold up to 24 phone lines, but I'm not sure on the number right now. So an incoming line could have 6 lines and the rest used for data.

You then have bandwidth costs depending on how much throughput you need.

With the cost you do get good support though.

Anyway, this stuff is expensive. Around here I know a point to point T1 is about 400 bucks between 2 buildings about a mile and a half apart. No idea what net access would cost. After getting that quote we looked into other options.

I also don't completely know what I'm talking about so take what I said with a grain of salt.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by blackbird_1.0:
sorry didn't mean to bring out so much anger, uts just the only good dsl provider for where i live is bellsouth, and they're trying to overcharge us anyway w/ our phone bill, (charging us for multiple line when we have only one,) and i figured a t1, though expensive wud be me answer everybody says thats its faster n all jus wondering...

Like most phone companies, BellSouth is too big to be interested in screwing individual customers-it's their rate structure that they are interested in, and how they can screw ALL their customers.

In my experience with SBC, I just had to be persistent with calling customer service and explaining what was what, and they eventually figured out that I was right. It helps to have your records with you, like old bills and so on, when you call them.

And of course, be courteous but firm: "I only have the number I'm calling you on. I never ordered a second number. Has that number ever been used? What numbers have been called on it? Have I been the victim of someone's fraud?"

Of course I'm talking about some lowlife hijacking your phone account, not the phone company. (Sadly, this is a BIG scam, so it pays never to reveal your home number in public if at all possible.)

[Camelot]

Originally posted by blackbird_1.0:
i was just wondering how much it'd cost?

T1 lines are point to point connections (i.e. connect point A (your home) to point B (your office, your ISP, or somewhere else).

Most telcos price them on a distance basis - so much for the connection at each end, plus so much per mile for the distance between the points. For long-haul connections that can really add up.

For a basic T1 connection, expect to pay somewhere between $400 and $2000/month depending on the distance.

In addition to that, all that gets you is a dedicated line between the two points. If the point B is your ISP, you'll need to pay him/her internet access charges, plus you'll need a real router at your end to terminate the T1 (technically you'll need a CSU/DSU but many routers have these built in which makes life easier)

So, to go T1, expect an investment of several thousand dollars to get setup, with an annual service charge of several (or many) thousands of dollars a year to keep it running.

Oh, and don't forget, the T1 is still likely to go over BellSouth's cable infrastructure, so you're not going to get away from them (although they tend to treat T1 customers better than POTS customers)

That DSL line is looking better already, isn't it?

[blackbird_1.0]

yep

[tooki]

T1s cost a lot of money, what you get in return are two things:

-excellent (often guaranteed) speeds with very low latency

-contractual obligation to provide a certain amount of uptime (a Service Level Agreement [SLA], often guaranteeing up to 99.999% uptime, or about 8 hours of downtime per year)

tooki

[ghporter]

Originally posted by tooki:
T1s cost a lot of money, what you get in return are two things:

-excellent (often guaranteed) speeds with very low latency

-contractual obligation to provide a certain amount of uptime (a Service Level Agreement [SLA], often guaranteeing up to 99.999% uptime, or about 8 hours of downtime per year)

tooki

Unfortunately those two really great things are the main reason T1s cost so much. Given that DSL in an established area will usually have a 99.99% uptime rate (not counting the occasional DHCP lease expiration or other short-term issues that are part of the connection protocol), if your neighbors have good DSL service, you're likely to have good service.

As for speed, T1s max out at 1.544Mbps, and they are (generally) symetrical, meaning that you get that speed in both directions. The latentcy involved in T1 lines is almost always Internet-specific, without added slowdowns from ISP equipment and so on. DSL, on the other hand, will have some of that latentcy. You will have some small delay between your request being sent by your computer and the distant end receiving it that is due entirely to your ISP. As long as you have a good connection and good line quality, this won't give you much problem in gaming. On the other hand, if you're monitoring and managing a real-time process that's life or death, you'll want a T1.

[tooki]

For what it's worth, my DSL (Covad-based 1540/384k ADSL with 4 static IPs) has only gone down a couple of times in the 3 years I've had it. My uptime is probably 99.998%, and with static IPs, I don't deal with problems with DHCP or PPPoE.

My ISP is XO, but they are no longer offering new accounts for DSL. But Speakeasy does, they offer the same product at the same price, and actually give you some custom DNS services for free that XO would charge me extra for.

tooki

[benb]

Originally posted by tooki:
-contractual obligation to provide a certain amount of uptime (a Service Level Agreement [SLA], often guaranteeing up to 99.999% uptime, or about 8 hours of downtime per year)

In addition, the provider is required by the FCC to fix your outage in 4 hours or less, or they have to report the outage with the FCC. With DSL, most companies say they will have the outage fixed in 3 days or less. T1's are for mission-critical business applications, not for residential use. Unless of course you have wads of cash laying around.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

I forgot how slow a T1 is.

My DSL is 3megs and costs only $60 CAN a month.

[Camelot]

Just for comparison.

Sitting at one end of a T1 line I can ping devices on the other end (approx 15 miles away) in a consistent 2-3 milliseconds.

By comparison, sitting at the end of a DSL line at home, pinging my ISPs routers (which are physically closer than the far end of the T1 and indicate a best-case scenario) takes anywhere from 30 to 75ms.

For consistency and low latency a T1 beats the pants off DSL.

Not all applications require (or even notice) low latency but when you need it, you'll really appreciate it.

[Scotttheking]

That's some very nice latency. Now I need to figure out how to justify a T1 line.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by Camelot:
Just for comparison.

Sitting at one end of a T1 line I can ping devices on the other end (approx 15 miles away) in a consistent 2-3 milliseconds.

By comparison, sitting at the end of a DSL line at home, pinging my ISPs routers (which are physically closer than the far end of the T1 and indicate a best-case scenario) takes anywhere from 30 to 75ms.

For consistency and low latency a T1 beats the pants off DSL.

Not all applications require (or even notice) low latency but when you need it, you'll really appreciate it.

Are there any good resources on the differences and speeds of T1s, T3s, OC-3s, OC-256s etc...? Thanks

[Camelot]

Originally posted by Synotic:
Are there any good resources on the differences and speeds of T1s, T3s, OC-3s, OC-256s etc...? Thanks

There's lots of online sites listing the different line speeds. Check http://www.buzzsurf.com/speed/ for one.

In short, though:

T1 = 1.5mpbs
T3 = 44.7mpbs
OC3 = 155.52mpbs
OC12 = 622mpbs
OC192 = 9.95Gbps (fastest commonly available)
OC255 = 13.27Gbps

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Camelot:

Not all applications require (or even notice) low latency but when you need it, you'll really appreciate it.

So when do you need it?

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
So when do you need it?

Gaming

BTW, your ADSL provider sucks. My ISP's ADSL termination equipment is only 10-15ms away, and I can normally get to www.bbc.co.uk or www.jolt.co.uk in about 13ms. Then again I'm geographically only a few miles away from Telehouse, but from what I hear it's roughly the same for people up and down the country.

[Camelot]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Gaming

BTW, your ADSL provider sucks. My ISP's ADSL termination equipment is only 10-15ms away, and I can normally get to www.bbc.co.uk or www.jolt.co.uk in about 13ms. Then again I'm geographically only a few miles away from Telehouse, but from what I hear it's roughly the same for people up and down the country.

For all of BT's apparent ****-up with regards to DSL, they do seem to be getting it right when they 'enable' an exchange. I've frequently found UK-based DSL service to be superior to the US.

The other consideration is that I am close to the 1.5mbit DSL distance limit, so that might be a factor - BT seem to be more conservative in saying who is and who isn't within service range, so that might be the difference. The incumbent telcos here are out for every buck they can get so they push the limits of the technology.

[Camelot]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
So when do you need it?

Other than the previously mentioned gaming. if you do any kind of real-time or remote system administration latency can really suck.

Take, for example, ssh'ing into a remote machine on a high-latency link. On a 2ms latency keystrokes are virtually immediate. At 50ms you start to notice a slight lag between when you type a key on the keyboard and when it's echoed by by the remote machine.

On a 200ms link typing is painful. You an type entire words before they get echoed back from the server.

On a 400ms link (e.g. satellite) forget it. You could almost write a Harry Potter book before the lag caught up with you (well, not quite, but you get the idea). Imaging typing with a half-second pause between each character and you'll get the idea.

That's not to mention the additional delays in backing up and retyping if you're not a touch typist.

Also, remote control apps like Timbuktu, Apple Remote Desktop and VNC also suffer horribly - you move your mouse and, eventually, half a second later, the screen pointer moves too.

Web browsing/downloading/streaming/etc. don't really notice as much, but anything that involves real-time, two way communication can really suffer.

[geekwagon]

T1's aren't quite as expensive as they used to be. There are some deals out there if you look around. You don't HAVE to get the T1 service via whoever is going to do your local loop (your local phone company that owns your lines.) Sometimes the ISP's have deals with the telco's where they resell the lines for substantially cheaper than you could get the line yourself from the telco. For example:
http://www.speakeasy.net/t1

They advertise a T1 for $339/month with no install charge. Notice 2 things though, one is that you will need to provide your own CPE (a router with a CSU/DSU or WAN interface) which is much more expensive than a cable modem or a DSL router.

Secondly, that price is for a fractional T1, 384/384. They don't make it clear if it is actually frame relay instead of a "real" point-to-point T1, or if they are just limiting your bandwidth on the ISP side. Realistically, it doesn't matter too much. Frame relay does has a higher latency than a p-2-p link since it has to be switched through someone's frame cloud.

[Camelot]

Originally posted by geekwagon:
T1's aren't quite as expensive as they used to be. There are some deals out there if you look around. You don't HAVE to get the T1 service via whoever is going to do your local loop (your local phone company that owns your lines.) Sometimes the ISP's have deals with the telco's where they resell the lines for substantially cheaper than you could get the line yourself from the telco. For example:
http://www.speakeasy.net/t1

They advertise a T1 for $339/month with no install charge. Notice 2 things though, one is that you will need to provide your own CPE (a router with a CSU/DSU or WAN interface) which is much more expensive than a cable modem or a DSL router.

Secondly, that price is for a fractional T1, 384/384. They don't make it clear if it is actually frame relay instead of a "real" point-to-point T1, or if they are just limiting your bandwidth on the ISP side. Realistically, it doesn't matter too much. Frame relay does has a higher latency than a p-2-p link since it has to be switched through someone's frame cloud.

It's not clear from SpeakEasy's site whether what they are selling there is truly a T1 or re-labelled DSL.

Following the links to actually get pricing and order service, the URLs imply that it's DSL service.

No one is going to quote blanket T1 pricing since it is distance-based, so the further apart the two points are, the more it costs.

DSL, on the other hand, has fixed distance limits, and no additional charges for extra distance (you are either in range or not) so they can quote a fixed price.

On that basis, $700 for a 1.5mbps DSL line seems a little out of whack.

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by Camelot:
Also, remote control apps like Timbuktu, Apple Remote Desktop and VNC also suffer horribly - you move your mouse and, eventually, half a second later, the screen pointer moves too.

Ya, the worst is trying to control a computer (w/ TB2) that has Dock hiding and magnification enabled. Talk about an exercise in futility... Trying to hit a moving target like that utterly sucks.